Stealing Plots from Other Genres

[Recovering_Cynic]

Hi all!  Sorry but I've been a bit inactive lately, but work is still crazy (and I shouldn't be  posting right now, but hey, I'm  a slacker).  Anyway, I had a question about plot stealing.  It's a convoluted question, so bear with me. 

First, I have a confession to make.  In my last (and first) attempt at a novel, the plot seed was stolen from the book The Stars my Destination by Alfred Bester.  When I say "plot seed," what I mean is the overall generic plot.  In Bester's book (and my attempted book), the overall generic plot is "Man gets betrayed by person who had duty to help him and sets out on course of revenge seeking to discover who the person was.  On his journey of revenge he meets a woman who is as ruthless as he, falls in love with her, regains some of his humanity, but then discovers that she is the person who betrayed him." 

In Bester's book, the plot was sci/fi.  The MC was stranded in a wrecked space ship, and a passing freighter which heard his distress beacon stopped to investigate but did not render aid.  The ship and crew left him stranded to die in the cold of space.  This pushed the MC over the deep end, and he spent the rest of the story trying to blow up the ship and kill its captain.  I tried to adapt the story to the fantasy genre with mixed results.

The reason for stating all of the ab0ve is this: I am starting my second novel.  I am stealing a second plot.  Is that a good or bad thing?  It's from another genre, one that my audience will be fairly unfamiliar with.  I'm just worried that someone is going to post a review somewhere saying "That Sean, he's a hack!  This is the same story as X!"  That is one of my concerns.

Another concern/question is whether my method of plotting is even a good idea.  Have any of  ever stolen plots before to use as a template for writing a story?  I've found that pulling a plot from another genre requires you to artificially contrive the plot some.  For example, in my last attempt at writing a novel, my MC was abandoned by a knight who was supposed to give him aid.  I had to pick a knight because the person could not be easily recognizable which would require the MC to search, and in my mind I equated armor with space ship, and the person wearing the armor with the ship's captain.

Of course, much of the novel was wildly different.  It had to be.  Only someone who had read The Stars my Destination and had the story really stick with them would see any similarity. 

So I guess here is the feedback I am looking for: Do you think plot stealing is a good idea?  How much do you steal?  What is stealable?  How do you execute the theft, meaning, how do you fit in a plot device from another genre when that plot device is completely foreign?  (Example: say the story you are stealing from requires guns, only you are wanting to set the plot in a pre-modern technology setting?)

All thoughts are appreciated.

[LongTimeUnderdog]

I have issue with "Assassin's Creed."  I take issue with it because plot stealing from another genre (so to speak) is exactly what it did.  The plot, as revealed in Assassin's Creed 2 is that aliens seeded earth with people and imposed religion on them to control the masses."  Yawn.

The game series, while lacking in some intensity of excitement (but still a lot of fun to play) has been praised for its plot.  "It's so brilliant," people say.  "So clever. "  "I never would have guessed that, not in a million years."  Obvious none of these people have ever seen "Star Gate."

Stealing plots.  Not a cool idea.  Ultimately it will be difficult to ever be original.  And by original I mean completely original.  The near impossibility of this task comes because of the Bible.  Yes, that's right all you Christian hating people out there.  Every plot ever devised was first hashed out in the Bible.  Sister is raped and brother goes out to seek revenge?  Judah, the son of Israel (Jacob) and his sister.  Chick flicks?  The book of Ruth.  Wrongly imprisoned:  Joseph and the coat of many colors.  My friend is getting married but I really like the girl?  I won't tell you that one, you'll have to find it yourself (but it's in there).

When I started writing "The Name of God," I wanted to do something original and unique but I knew that a story about Gladiators was not anything new, though infrequently done.  And I knew that the Bible contained lots of stories about intrigue and great warriors.  I did not want to do warriors, I wanted to do gladiators.  People always tell me, write what you know.  Well I only know one thing really well, and that's personal combat, and how to hurt people.  I've never actually read a book about gladiators being gladiators.  It's always the Spartacus story of escaping to freedom.  I did not want that either.  When I started the story, about a year ago, I really did not know what I wanted.  I knew what I didn't want, but not what it WAS that I WANTED.  Then it finally came to me in a conversation I had with friends.

I tell you this because I don't know how other people conjure their ideas.  I know how I conjure mine.  Plot stealing is not cool.  It's really not.  Everyone is going to figure it out.  A lot of movies and books get away with it, because they do it well and that's okay, but I, personally, will always hold them in contempt for not working harder to make a better story.  Abandoned and heading out to seek revenge is not unique to that story you're talking about.  It's quite a popular one, actually.  Or at least it was, for a time.    Instead of plot stealing, why don't you ask yourself what themes you're wanting to discuss.  When you figure out the themes you want, then you'll start to see how those themes appear in the real world.  When you see how they appear in the real world, you'll start to see the elements that make up those themes.  And then you'll start to have your story.

So to continue my story of how "The Name of God," came about and to give you an example of what's I just mentioned about Themes . . .

While I was pondering on this I was spending time with a friend who is a druid and his wife (sort of) who is an atheist.  I am neither.  Between them and some of their friends I met, I heard some interesting conversation pieces that made me think of actual Bible stories I had read.  For a time, a short time, I studied things like the "enlightenment period," and how much a colossal waste of time that was.  The irony of the French Revolution and the so called Enlightenment period was that they had an actual funeral for God.  If you've ever looked at the French Revolution you'll realize one thing:  It was one of the worst periods of time in human history.  That's why there are so many old movies made of that time period.  The irony comes because that the very people who instigated that came to say, and I'm only paraphrasing here, "Whether or not God exists, we can not without him."

I mentioned this to my friends and their friends and I was mocked to embarrassment.  I learned a great deal about these people and their lives and from my study of this Enlightenment period I began to see similarities in their lives to those of the French at the time.  "This is like the Tower of Bable.  Let's all go tell God what to do."  And then I thought:  "What would the world be like if these people were right.  I mean, what would happen if the Tower of Bable had actually been successful?"  And there it was.  Political intrigue between Man and God, with Gladiators.  I still didn't want to do a bit "pro-christian" piece.  I just wanted to tell a story on a very large scale involving politics, God, war, and gladiators.  Throw in some crazy magic and "The Name of God," was born.

I suppose I could say I stole the plot, tower of Bable from the bible I mean.  But I really didn't.  This story is MY story.  I'm writing it, because I want people to read this story and feel the same way I do about it.  When you steal someone's plot, then it is not YOUR story.  It is THEIR story retold by you.  And everyone is going to be able to see that, even if they don't know the plots origin.  I certainly did, though I admittedly would not have guessed you lifted it from a book about spaceships.  when you plot steal, your story will feel hallow to you.  Again, because it's not YOUR story.  That's why Avatar was so successful, despite similarities to other movies.  James Cameron was not plot stealing, he just really wanted to tell that specific story.  So he did.  It was HIS story HIS way.  And that, Cynic, is what you need to do.

[Silk]

I have to agree with Cynic. Your opinion is your own, and perfectly valid (note: I am neither attempting to agree nor disagree with anyone's opinion here), but there is absolutely no need to express that opinion through personal attacks.

For the last year and a bit I've been absolutely thrilled by the way that everyone has managed to criticize the work of others in an adult, professional manner. Please, let's return to being adults and professionals.

I thought about locking this thread, but I don't think I'm going to yet. If anyone wishes to resume the discussion of the question that Cynic was asking, they may do so. I will close it down if I see any more personal attacks, however.

Silk

[Chaos]

Getting the topic back to a mature place:

I think that plot isn't the whole story. With any book you write, there should be interesting characters with interesting conflicts. Character, not plot, is the soul of story. Plots are the base distillations of stories, not the stories themselves. Fantasy, in particular, needs to have awesome, differentiating speculative aspects to it as well. So while the basic plot arc may be similar, the other components of the story shouldn't be replicas of your inspiration. If you do that, then yes, you have a problem!

[Silk]

What Cynic is describing, of course, is a very generic, boiled-down plotline, which I think has a significant impact on the discussion. While I agree that there is a certain amount of danger in falling into the "nothing is original, so I can just do whatever I want" trap, I don't really see what's wrong with finding inspiration in a plot as bare-bones and skeletal as the one that Cynic has described. That inspiration, of course, should be a starting point--but what first idea isn't?

For me, at least, the key is responding to the ideas that you're borrowing from (or stealing, if that's the word you want to use ) instead of just telling the same story over again. I'm working on a musical stage drama right now. The reason I even started this piece was because I was really interested in a fairly specific event that happens at the end of the musical Wicked. Same story? Not even close.

So, with the understanding that we are talking about something as boiled-down and generic as we are, I would say that there is nothing really wrong with using plot ideas in that way as long as you're responding to it, and not just trotting it out again. I would also caution that you should take care to use the idea because it fits, not because you read about it somewhere else and thought it sounded cool--but you probably knew that already.

...I know this post is vague and not very helpful, but I'm supposed to be working on assignments right now, darn it.

[lethalfalcon]

It has been my experience as well that books, movies, and life all influence new literature. While I wouldn't necessarily condone the "stealing" of a full plot just to rewrite it in another setting with slightly different characters, it would be hard to argue that writing borrows from previous examples. Jordan was influenced by Tolkien, Sanderson was influenced by Jordan, etc. The Wheel of Time is not a retelling of Lord of the Rings, though.

So, I guess you have to ask, are you stealing a plot, or being influenced by it? My dreams are the source of most of my ideas, and they're subconscious representations of wishes, or warping of real life events and things I've seen. For instance, in my latest attempt at a story, Delving is a warped cross between lucid dreaming and telepathy, the former of which is something I do quite often. The actual Heartglass is an idea I got one day looking at a thick piece of glass from a busted computer monitor that I have (CRT monitor glass is like 1/2" thick, and quite smoky). The whole thing came together in a dream of him escaping the prison he's in, after vowing to return the glass.

So let's see, there are thousands of books that deal with prison escape and running from the law, plenty also that have psychics, and even some that use "special crystals" (specifically, the closest I know of is the Crystal Singer saga by Anne McCaffrey). My character is almost your stereotypical rogue, plucked right out of D&D and dropped into sci-fi. But you know what? I've molded them to fit the story I want to tell, with the characters I want to experience it with.

At the end of the day, can you call it your story? Or just someone else's story with your gift-wrap? Most of the common plot lines show up everywhere, but twisted a little, changed to fit your actual story.

Give me a story, and I'll find another story that's similar.

[Shivertongue]

My two cents...

Are you taking the entire plot, event for event, twist for twist, and just adding new characters and locations of your own? Could you take the original story, and with some replacing of names and places turn it into an exact replica of your own? If that is the case, then yeah, you're in trouble.

Now, if you've merely allowed yourself to be inspired by that plot, and borrowed some of the elements and mixed it with your own, or elements borrowed from other stories, then I don't see a problem. Some may say that every story has already been told, but I would say they're wrong.  Every basic, boiled-down plot has been told. Every archetype has been used. Every formula has been done over and over and over again.

But not every story has been told. Because every story is different, when told from a different perspective, with a different person holding the pen, with a different person bringing their life experiences and knowledge into the story. Plots are borrowed all the time, in whole and in pieces, and then twisted by the simple act of someone different writing them. Unless you're copying the original story word-for-word, then there is no way in hell it won't end up different, that it will not end up YOUR story. It simply isn't possible.

As lethalfalcon said, give me a story, and I'll find one similar. This is very true. But at the same time, it is impossible to find one EXACTLY the same. Every story is a retelling, reworking, reimagining, revisiting or redefining of a basic, boiled-down plot that was old when the stories that eventually became the Bible were first being recited. But they are not the same stories.

I've probably just repeated things others have already said. But, as stated above, that is inevitable - I did it in my own way, though, which is what makes it original. ^_^

[Asmodemon]

When I read other works I can become inspired by the feeling of the work in question so much that I want to make something that conjures just that feel. I’ll do it with a setting of my own, characters and twists, that might be nothing like the original work. And that’s fine because it’s a feeling I want to capture and not the original work.

Other times I might be tempted to take bits of other works, such as an interesting location or character idea. I’m pretty abhorrent to the thought of taking things wholesale so I’ll twist things to make them mine.

Now, having said that, what you’ve got here is pretty barebones for a plot. You can fill in the setting, characters, and all the rest, with things that are nothing like where you got the original idea from. And if you’re still worrying about that, just twist things.

For instance, the betrayal you talk abuot might run deeper than just the woman. Maybe she’s also working for someone else, someone who in turn worked for your MC on another assignment. In order to fulfill that job she had to betray the MC. So in the end he really betrayed himself because he had too many goals and things just got out of hand.

That’s just one thing you could do. Just start twisting things and make it yours.

[clarissavandell]

There are so many plotlines - the boiled down plotlines - that have been reused over and over again.  If you think about it, a lot of d authors will do it... but they'll twist it somehow.  Hamlet?  Change a few details, give it a happy ending and turn all the main characters into lions, and it's the Lion King.  Or some people might take many elements from different stories and combine it into some mutant plot/characters/setting thing.

My first attempt at a book was basically Harry Potter/Garth Nix's Tower series/Wrinkle in Time at a girl's school.  I couldn't make it work the way I wanted it to.  My second book jumped into my head, after creating some characters.  Another I got after reading Twilight and getting the new White Stripes CD, and somehow getting this weird dream.

Basically, if something from your story's completely yours, whether it be the characters or plot, it's okay.  If you come up with one thing completely your own and let the story come naturally from that element, that works best for me.  If you intentionally draw something of another author to be the start of your plot... I think it's harder to come up with a good, original story.  If you can make it work, good for you.  Just don't be too obvious about the stealing... Or steal something nobody else has ever heard of. 

[Renoard]

All I can say is I've never encountered a successful writer who didn't borrow themes and plots from previous generations.  Wilde stole from Sherridon who stole from Shakespeare and Bacon who stole from. . . .

[Renoard]

One thing that does bother me is the aquisition of major chunks of character and setting.  Sometimes you are reading a novel, and the author may be skilled and fresh, yet he or she has felt the need to simply transplant a location or a group of charaters even a group of scenes from another work, a game or a film.  It is jarring at best, but it can be so bad that I begin to seen the piece as just another work of fan fiction.

One that has been bothering me a great deal is the large number of novels from the last 10 years that borrow outrageously from Warhammer [tm], Warcraft [tm] and D&D [tm].  I like a good round of Space Marine, I move my mech-infanty 5deg counter clockwise and 7cm's forward.  But it doesn't belong in the novel I'm reading about rainbow hued sprites who guard the entrance to a forgotten pocket universe full of fairies and demons.  Nor do Death Knights from Warcraft belong in the scifi/fan fusion I'm reading about flying sorcererous supermen in capes.

Hey it's a personal preference but I'd bet it's wide-spread enough to affect sales.

[lethalfalcon]

Personally, I don't think Death Knights belong anywhere... including the Warcraft universe.

However, if you can spot a space marine inside a book about fairies and demons, the author probably wasn't trying hard enough. There's inspiration from other works, and then there's blatent stupidity. Of course, I'm pretty sure D&D's roots are in Tolkien, same with  Warhammer Fantasy (40k is pretty much the fantasy races dragged into the future).

That said, I'm really not a huge supporter of fan-fiction. All the Dragonlance books, the ones set in the Star Wars universe, etc. People should at least be able to come up with their own worlds and characters, for crying out loud.

[Frog]

I think that plot isn't the whole story. With any book you write, there should be interesting characters with interesting conflicts. Character, not plot, is the soul of story. Plots are the base distillations of stories, not the stories themselves. Fantasy, in particular, needs to have awesome, differentiating speculative aspects to it as well. So while the basic plot arc may be similar, the other components of the story shouldn't be replicas of your inspiration. If you do that, then yes, you have a problem!

Yeah, basically ditto from me.I don't worry too much about plot 'stealing' so long as you do your own research and insert yourself as much as possible. Let the story evolve a bit on its own rather then trying to rigidly stick to any given formula and it will be better for it. But then most people here know I'm firmly in the  'there is nothing new under the sun' camp. I actually see it as a challenge when people say 'this has never been done before' because it is usually so easy to prove them wrong.