March 16 - lethalfalcon - Heartglass - Prologue

[lethalfalcon]

And here's a thread. Yay.

Thanks in advance to anyone who tortured themselves to read something of mine. I appreciate all feedback.

[LongTimeUnderdog]

Well . . . it was short.

I liked the writing.  I liked it a lot.  Well there was one line, but you'll catch it in Post so no need to worry.

As to a critique . . . um . . . keep it up?  The piece was very good.  The characters were nice, and even what little we learned about James made him interesting.  What I found most surprising about the piece though is how much it read like fantasy then Sci-fi.  I mean, planets and spaceships and assault rifles and all that good stuff were helpful setting pieces, but in the end we have old, kind of mystic prison crime boss, the enforcer guy, and the likable rogue.  And of top of that we have "Delving," which reads like "psychic powers," or "magic."  So if Space Opera is what you're shooting for then good for you.

Sadly, I would have liked more.  But that's only because I enjoyed it.  If this is the prologue I'm curious what the actual story really is.  I mean, this little story could go on all by itself.  So good work!

[lethalfalcon]

That's it?! LTU, you disappoint me. I thought I could always count on you for a scathing review chock full of how tortuous you found it, complaining that you couldn't get to the spoons to gouge out your eyes fast enough.

But this... you liked it? Sheesh. Now I'm going to feel bad being all critical and mean on your submissions. That's your real plan, isn't it? Drat.

On a side note, feeling like fantasy is *exactly* what I'm going for. The reason it's actually sci-fi is because I needed a bigger "world". I need vast economies, great distances, huge overreaching governments... I just don't feel like I could accomplish it with a single planet, and I didn't want to go into planar travel.

It'll be a lot more sci-fi once he's not stuck on/in a prison world, but I'm going to try to keep it with a bit of fantasy setting.

And Delving is an interesting beast... you'll see that in chapter 1. If I can get more free time to actually write. *grumble*

[LongTimeUnderdog]

If it helps you, I think the dialogue could be better.  It's hard to pull a "Yatzee" on a piece that's both enjoyable and short.  Kind of like "Portal."

[lethalfalcon]

Sigh, always with the dialog.  So, I have to ask, *how* can I make it better? I'm obviously heavily deficient in this area, which is very likely due to my complete social aversion. I think I need specifics in this area, if only to get a better understanding.

Not quite sure why you think it's so short, though. It's 2600 words, give or take. Normal chapters are what, 4-5k? I've seen far shorter prologues. Maybe you just feel it's short because it captivated you enough? I can only hope.

[LongTimeUnderdog]

2600 words . . . you're talking to a guy who writes 7k chapters normally.  It was captivating, but I thought it could be filled with more stuff to give us better setting, or more of an imprisoned feeling.

Well I don't know how other people feel, but I spent a lot of time studying people who made really good dialogue and hoped to pick up something.  I am asocial as well.  (not anti-social, that means you rob banks and kill people).  In my case it was a lot of Schlock Mercenary, Jeff Leob (early stuff), and Joss Wheedon.  I also took drama classes and learned to take notes about conversation I had, or more appropriately, I over heard other people have.  I wouldn't say my dialogue is superb, but I know, personally, it's above average.

There are two tips/pieces of advice that did, however, help me the most.  You'll think they're nuts, but they work.  The first is to repeat everything people say.  When you repeat a name, or a piece of conversation, it starts to become who you are.  When you quote films, particularly ones with witty phrases (like Buffy the Vampire Slayer), you'll start to pick up on the tricks they use.  And that's what it is, tricks.

The second piece I can give you is to write a sentence of dialogue and stop to look at it.  Ask yourself a few questions about it.  "Does this sound like something someone would say?"  "Is there a euphemism I could use instead of this sentence?"  "Are there words I could replace to make the character's personality show?"  "Does this sound like something about of a bad movie, like Transformers, or Conan?"  "Is this something I would say?"  "If it is something I would say, how can I make it not something I would say?"  "Is there a way to make this dialogue more intellectual?"  And finally, "Are their new words I can make up, or gags that I can throw in, to get a laugh?"  The last one was something Wheedon is very good at.

Writing good dialogue is, admittedly, about people.  It's not conjuring up what you think someone would say, but snatching a voice from somewhere and drawing it on paper.  The best dialogue ever written, in my opinion, was on "Pushing Daisies," particularly from the character Emerson Cod.  Not only did he say everything in a funny way, he spoke with a rhythm, a musical melody and rhythm that made him probably the best character to ever appear on television, in my opinion.  Played by Chi McBride who now plays on "Human Target."  He says funny things there too.  Pushing Daisies did not have spoken dialogue.  It was poetry.  Mostly because the writers asked themselves the questions I posted above (even if they did not know it).

Also using phrases that sound like, "I do not have time for foolish/petty games," or, "You're my only hope," are things you should avoid.  Alternatively, your line of something like . . . "No, I don't want you, but the guy I do want isn't here.  So I'll have to cope," made me chuckle.

[Shivertongue]

*sneaks in and steal the advice*

Just passing through. I'll post a response to this prologue and Underdog's submission tomorrow, after I've read through them both.

[Shivertongue]

Finally getting to this. Sorry about being so late, this is really the first opportunity I've had.

Standard science fiction preface: I don't read much science fiction. It's difficult for me to get through.

Okay, read it and... that did not feel like science fiction. Looking at the other responses, I now know this was the intent. Space fantasy? It can be difficult, and you might run into a few problems with readers. SciFi readers may put it down because they don't read fantasy, fantasy because they don't read scifi. But that line of thought isn't exactly helpful, so lets move on.

Main character is a thief = win. Thieves are awesomesauce on snazziness dipped in chocolate.

Simply out, I loved it. We saw a total of three characters, and within 2,600 words got to know all three very well. Even Gorilla, who had the least amount of screen time, feels very developed and strong.

I didn't notice any issues with dialog, but apparently I have my own problems writing it. It seemed fine to me, and fitting to the story.

Simply put, I want to read more. You've whetted my appetite with something very interesting and seemingly unique, and now I want to see more. I honestly wish I'd had some sort of a problem with it, but skimming it now... okay, found something. I saw the location of Roethe's heartglass coming a mile away. I don't know what could be done to this, or even if something should be done about it (it's not a big deal, after all). I have a feeling it wasn't even really meant to be a surprise.

The names big me a little. Roethe sounds like something I've seen somewhere before but I'm going to be unhelpful and say I can't for the life of me remember where. James, as a name, seems a bit un-unique - but then a thief would likely prefer not to be remembered easily.

That's all I got, really. Wish I could give more, but the piece is rather short and I couldn't find much to fault with it. I look forward, eagerly, to the first chapter.

[Chaos]

Well, this piece definitely held my attention moreso than your other pieces, Falcon. It had direction. Story wise, my only criticism is that there was very little tension within it. The only real tension came when Roethe stabbed himself, and even then it didn't feel that there was danger. The piece felt relaxed, I suppose. Though it was intriguing, so it's okay.

You have a superb grip on characters as well. James has personality, and I want to see much more of him. Great job on that front.

However, there are significant prose/technical issues with the writing itself. You tell instead of showing quite a bit, especially in those first pages. The second paragraph is telly like none other. He's in prison. While some context is good, just get me right into the story. Really, most of the second and third paragraph are summing up when he says "Last time I steal anything legitimate". And now that I think about it, that's a pretty darn hook right there. Regardless, your story starts there and we don't really need too much background beforehand.

The dialogue with Gorilla was good. Short, sweet, and to the point. That may have more to do with Gorilla's personality and dialect than anything else, but the shorter your dialogue, the better it is. The dialogue with Roethe went in too long, mostly because when Roethe was listing a bunch of stuff, it felt very telly. Never do that.

Since you asked about how to fix dialogue and LTU responded, I'll add a bit more: focus in on an emotion. You, from your writerly perspective, want to manipulate emotion, and to do that you need your character to feel emotion. So when you think about dialogue, it's not "what would that person say?" It's "what is this person's objective, and what tactics is he using to achieve it?" Which naturally should lead into some emotion.

So, really, my biggest problem was the telliness of the piece. At least a page of the seven page submission probably could have been cut from the telly prose. I would like to say, however, that you do a much better job at not telling when it comes to Delving. Perfect. It definitely seems you are conscious that you don't want to infodump when it comes to your own fictional concepts, the magic and technology (heartglass and Delving), and your races. Now you just have to apply this lack of telling to the rest of your prose. Then, I think you will have a very good piece.

One final note: it's not immensely clear at the beginning if the Aerendai or the Yan are actual humans, or a different species entirely. When we see Roethe we aren't seeing his physiological differences, and one would think James would pick up on them better--he doesn't seem familiar with them. You don't have to tell too much here, but I would really like to know immediately whether these are humans or some other race.

Oh, line edit things: You first say "Aeredai" and in the next paragraph, its "Aerendai". On page four, remember the rules from multiple paragraph dialogue You need a new quotation mark to start the next paragraph.

All in all, good job. Just needs tightening.

Roethe's name reminded me Silk's usual username, Raethe

[Recovering_Cynic]

I'm not sure you're still looking for feedback on this, but lets just say a big "ditto" to all of the above praise.  The piece was really good and very captivating.  That being said, I'll try to find a few things that can be improved.

First, the size of the heartglass.  You said that your MC "pocketed" the piece, but you also said that it was larger than the size of his hand.  That's an awfully big piece of glass to be stuffing someplace.  Also, it's an awfully big piece to just sit inside someone (assuming human or even slightly human-like physiology, and since you said the guy had something like a digestive tract, it's a fairly safe assumption). 

Next, where is the lighting in your cave/mine system coming from?  I understood all of the events to happen underground, but there is light and it is not explained.  Show me the setting here.

Finally, the river.  Underground rivers, especially ones that flow quickly, are generally contained in walled off caves or near steep inclines.  The erosion does it.  I had a hard time seeing a small, narrow cave next to a river.  You need the river to dispose of the body, yes, but it seems like you took a normal river flowing through a forest and then transported it underground.  Fast flowing rivers underground behave very differently than fast flowing rivers above ground.

Anyway, all of the above is nit-picky.  The piece was great so bravo!

[lethalfalcon]

Hrm. I think I can answer these here, which means I need to address them in the chapter.

It's slightly larger than an average male palm. Yes, this does make it difficult to fit inside a body, but surgically speaking, you can make room for it. There's all sorts of room in the abdominal cavity to stick things if you're really ambitious (think about the fact that you can shorten your intestines a little, for instance).  He's wearing overalls, so fitting it in his pocket isn't so hard to do... just think about all those large smartphones people stuff in their pockets. I know mine's larger than my palm, and it fits in my pockets fine.

As for the lights... hrm, might need to check your eyes on that one:

James lay in his bed uncomfortably, staring up at the grimy metal ceiling illuminated by an old mercury lamp outside the door, puzzling through the events that had landed him in prison on a desolate backwater mining planet.

James grew uneasy. His eyes darted to the dark corners between the strung lights, half-expecting an ambush.

Slightly larger than the palm of his hand, the blue-green crystal glimmered from the faint lantern light.

Is there someplace you see light but don't understand its source?

As for the river, yes, it was indeed walled off... until they mined through to it. Deep mines need a source of water, and it's fairly plausible that they would have found it in scans, mined to it, hollowed out the area enough so that they could get water, and then moved off in another direction. Once past the shore of the river, the ceiling is almost sitting on the water. I should probably illustrate that a little better.

At any rate, I really do appreciate the critiques, and I'm happy that my latest has at least garnered more positive reviews. I'm always looking for feedback, though. Hopefully I can keep up with this going into chapter 1.

[Recovering_Cynic]

The part that bothered me about the light (and this is just a personal preference) is where he walks around the corner and sees the old prisoner (name escapes me) and you mention him seeing a faint light.  I wanted a more concrete description there, especially since when you are walking in the dark and you see a light, it draws your eyes first, so it should be described first (imho), but you don't say what it is until much later.

As to the river, mining down to it is intelligent, yes, but water underground is dangerous.  Unless it's slow moving and there is a wide, deep cavern, they are going to be especially careful about letting it have access to tunnels that can fill up quickly, especially if the river gets clogged by a cave in or something.

As to the heartglass, yeah, that's easily fixable; just describe how he conceals it.

[Frog]

I actually thought it was long, but that is just because it is a prologue. Those I take most any excuse to skip because I want the 'real' story. Because this took a few paragraphs to get my attention and such, this would probably be one I would skip in favor of the 1st chp like I did for Eddings, Sanderson and countless others.

That being said there did seem to be a good character and story premise in there somewhere. I will agree with Chaos that there was a lot of telling and the dialogue from Roethe got a bit long and stilted. It definitely needs some more emotion and a better hook.

I am curious about some of the new words you are using. There is a danger of using so many without a quick explanation as it becomes more 'irritating' then 'intriguing,' but I don't think you are at that point quite yet.

There might be some line edits in your future, but other then that I would just encourage you to keep pressing on. Your writing is already better then it was and I look forward to seeing more.

[ryos]

I liked this. The prose was solid, the characters worked, and I liked your alien races. The dialog did not stand out to me as something that needed fixing. In fact, very few things did.

Even in general, very little stood out in this piece. That's my biggest criticism of the piece: it's bland. It needs more texture; a few more setting details, a bit more depth in the main character, a greater sense that something important is happening.

Also, it doesn't read like a prologue. It reads like chapter 1. Especially the ending, which is a cliffhanger. When I read a prologue, I expect to be reading an event (or series of events) that happen some time before the main story, which are in some way important to the narrative (but also potentially detached). I don't expect chapter 1 to pick right up where it leaves off; I expect a time gap. There are, of course, examples of prologues that break this mold, but as an aspiring writer I wouldn't try it if I were you.

With that ending, you can't move on without following it up. If you follow it up, what you have is chapter 1, and not a prologue.

Lastly, the structure of the prison needs more justification. It seems to me that the default state of a prison is to have less freedom, and every allowance above and beyond that needs proper justification. If you let your prisoners run free after hours, you have to worry about them getting into all kinds of mischief. They need a reason to allow it that allays the risk.

And, well, that's all I've got. Sorry it took so long to get to this. Are you still interested in critiques of Oathbound?

[lethalfalcon]

Um... you can probably skip those. Chapter 2 was a mess, and the prologue is already 2/3 rewritten. I'll let you think I'm a halfway decent writer for now, whereas reading those will make you wonder whether this chapter is a fluke.

As far as the chapter #, I'm not really all that concerned about it. If that was your only problem, run "chapter = chapter+1) on it and call it good. I understand where people are coming from with regards to it, and I'm not sure whether I'll have one of those scenes or not. If not, I'll change the prologue to chapter 1.

Texture... might be a bit harder, honestly. James really did get thrown into this (for reasons you'll find out later), and he's still adjusting. Now he's already getting thrown into more situations, without having a clue why. Setting I can do. The greater sense of importance, I'm not so sure about. The piece of heartglass is extremely important, but I don't know how to convey that much more without him saying something like "you are the universe's only hope, James".

The default state of a prison is isolation and containment. However, the reason for that is due to ease of control; if they can't go anywhere or do anything, they can't be a problem. However, this prison is an entire planet. Moreso, it's deep inside the planet. There are no ways out except through the choke-points of the prison structure itself. My idea is this: they're in for the long haul (essentially, life without parole). The prisoners here have a choice; they can work in the mines, and enjoy a "reasonable" existence, or they can be belligerent and go to isolation. Most people would choose the former. There is, for all intents and purposes, an entire self-contained society in the prison. I would probably compare it to how the British colonized Australia. I tried to show a little bit of that in this chapter, but didn't want to drone on about the whole system, which James wouldn't necessarily care about.

Thanks for the critique, though. I'm really trying to get the next chapter done, but my need for money has dictated that I work more to get it.