Fantasy girls, where are you?

[Patriotic Kaz]

Moggle you are a troll, I'm an ass but I know when I'm wrong and attempt to drop a subject. You however, demonstrate a lack of intelligence befitting a troll.

[Bookstore Guy]

Here's a statistic that may surprise you. Of the 3,500 people who have fanned Brandon's Facebook page, it's 67% male. That holds across most age ranges, and the biggest demographic—ages 25–34, is 72% male. (The smallest demographics, 45–54 and 55+ are evenly male/female to balance that out.)

This article says toward the end of 2007, Facebook was 2/3 female.
http://www.techcrunch.com/2007/11/21/facebook-is-almost-23-women-and-other-stats/
If that is still true, Brandon's readership may be even more skewed toward males than the Facebook fan page indicates.

This is a surprise to me. I expected the ratio to be much more even. Now, it has to be understood that the vast majority of Brandon's fans on Facebook are Wheel of Time fans—but that is another fandom that I expected to be more evenly split.

This does surprise me.  I would have figured a stronger female demographic in the Brandon realm--of course, this is all facebook related, but still. 

On the whole, I noticed a 2 to 1 (a rough estimate) split in favor of the female when it came to books in the fantasy section.  Not SF.  Fantasy.  And females seemed to buy more novels at a time.

Cool stats Peter.

[readerMom]

I think when we are talking fantasy if we pull out all the urban fantasy readers the female percentage will drop. From my own experience epic fantasy readers are mostly male. That is in my own age range of course, (I am in my late 30s). I think younger women are reading more fantasy because it is more available and acceptable now than it was when I started reading thirty years ago.

[Lord Terrisman]

I think when we are talking fantasy if we pull out all the urban fantasy readers the female percentage will drop. From my own experience epic fantasy readers are mostly male. That is in my own age range of course, (I am in my late 30s). I think younger women are reading more fantasy because it is more available and acceptable now than it was when I started reading thirty years ago.

Thanks for the interesting facts Bookstore Guy.  Also I agree with you reader mom it seems that fantasy is attracting a lot more women these days.  I think this is due to the fact that in the YA section there are so many books about strong female protagonist in the urban fantasy genere.  So when the girls are younger they read those and then move on to "adult" urban fantasy.

[Moggle]

Kahlan is nothing more than the archetype "damsel in perpetual distress."  She is there to serve as character conflict for Richard, nothing else.  If you want to consider that a female lead, OK, but she isn't a strong or even good lead.  Half of the problems Richard faces (and then solves on pure accident at the end of the novels--another issue entirely) are due to Kahlan being a complete moron.  As a general rule, I detest stories that rely on character stupidity to further the plot/conflict.  Goodkind has become a master of this avenue of story-telling, all-the-while coating it with a false, thin facade of intelligence by ripping off Ayn Rand.

You detest Goodkind's books and his characters and yet you've gone ahead and read multiple sword of truth novels (at least half or all of them from what I can tell) some averaging 300,000 words a book?  They're so badly written you just have to read them all.   lol.   If you've only read one or two books then your assertions are just based on ignorance and if you've read at least half the series then obviously you badly contradict yourself so which is it?  I'd be willing to debate rationally over the subject, but that's not what I'm getting from your end of the discussion as far as I can tell.

But hey, some people like it.  More power to them.  If it gets them reading so they can be introduced to better authors like Erikson, Jones, Abercrombie, etc., then awesome.  All I have to say is each person likes different things.  Just because you don't like Blue Sword, doesn't mean others wont.  Just because I detest Goodkinds garbage, doesn't mean others wont think it's awesome.  But don't knock someone because they happened to like a novel and recommended it.  We aren't a fraking Hive Mind on book tastes.

That said, most of the novels I read have a ton of characters, both female and male.  I mean, Erikson, Abercrombie, Martin, Lloyd, Mieville, Barclay...they all have strong female characters in the series.  I think the best novels have a nice mix of male vs. female characters.  I do enjoy some novels that have mostly an all-male cast--usually they are balls-out action novels--but I cant really get into novels that are mostly female led.  Those novels usually have unicorns on the front (Mercedes Lackey anyone?). I just cant stomach that.

The op asked for a good female lead, not side characters who don't play big roles in predominately male fantasy novels. 

[Bookstore Guy]

Moggle - Since you don't know me, or what I do, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt on your rudeness.  I reviews books.  All of them.  I used to manage a bookstore.  It was the #1 ranked Waldenbooks in the country--knowing what NOT to recommend is just as important (if not more so) than what TO recommend.  I've had some training from Brandon Sanderson's Agent on the ins-and-outs of that job description.  As a result, I read and finish pretty much every popular novel/series in the fantasy genre, and to a lesser extent SF, Horror and Mystery/Thriller.  I have had connections in the publishing industry for years now, and a large number of editors, agents, publicists and authors seem to appreciate my opinions (not to mention the the hundreds of readers who go to my review blog daily).

So, when I say I have an opinion on Terry Goodkind, it is because I have read his work.  All of it.  Same with Terry Brooks who I hate.  Stephanie Meyer who I hate.  Dan Brown who I hate.  If I only read books I liked, from a professional standpoint, I would be uninformed.  If I only read novels I liked, from a personal standpoint, I wouldn't appreciate the awesomeness of great authors as much as I do now.  I read books and series that I absolutely hate.  I do it so I can give people legitimate opinions on a wide variety of novels across various genres and sub-genres.  So don't insult me for having read books I detest so that I can have a complete and informed opinion.  You see, people in a surprising number of countries rely on me for my opinions.

The op asked for novels with strong female leads.  I gave a list of authors who have strong female characters who serve as leads.  A strong lead doesn't mean that they are the only character who has a PoV.  Once again, all of those authors have female characters who serve as leads.  If you've read all of those series, as other readers here will attest, then you know that these authors have some of the strongest female characters in all of literature.

[Lord Terrisman]

Mogul - Since you don't know me, or what I do, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt on your rudeness. I reviews books. All of them. I used to manage a bookstore. It was the #1 ranked Waldenbooks in the country--knowing what NOT to recommend is just as important (if not more so) than what TO recommend. I've had some training from Brandon Sanderson's Agent on the ins-and-outs of that job description. As a result, I read and finish pretty much every popular novel/series in the fantasy genre, and to a lesser extent SF, Horror and Mystery/Thriller. I have had connections in the publishing industry for years now, and a large number of editors, agents, publicists and authors seem to appreciate my opinions (not to mention the the hundreds of readers who go to my review bog daily).

So, when I say I have an opinion on Terry Goodkind, it is because I have read his work. All of it. Same with Terry Brooks who I hate. Stephanie Meyer who I hate. Dan Brown who I hate. If I only read books I liked, from a professional standpoint, I would be uninformed. If I only read novels I liked, from a personal standpoint, I wouldn't appreciate the awesomeness of great authors as much as I do now. I read books and series that I absolutely hate. I do it so I can give people legitimate opinions on a wide variety of novels across various genres and sub-genres. So don't insult me for having read books I detest so that I can have a complete and informed opinion. You see, people in a surprising number of countries rely on me for my opinions.

The op asked for novels with strong female leads. I gave a list of authors who have strong female characters who serve as leads. A strong lead doesn't mean that they are the only character who has a Prov. Once again, all of those authors have female characters who serve as leads. If you've read all of those series, as other readers here will attest, then you know that these authors have some of the strongest female characters in all of literature.

Wow, I had no idea you did all that (I'm new).  Now I really admire you for all of your work you have done.  Also I go on your website a lot now (sorry had a fanboy moment).

[Patriotic Kaz]

Most of us in this forum follow BSG's site, and generally respect his opinion and stay away from the books he says suck, b/c he is generally right.

[Lord Terrisman]

Yeah I'd definetely avoid the books he said suck.

[KhyEllie]

What's against Terry Brooks? I was in ninth grade when I read them, and new to analytical reading, so maybe I just need to go over them again, but I liked the Shannara books. Admittedly, his other books aren't that great. I suggest at least trying the Word and the Void if you're looking for good female leads.

[Moggle]

Moggle - Since you don't know me, or what I do, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt on your rudeness.  I reviews books.  All of them.  I used to manage a bookstore.  It was the #1 ranked Waldenbooks in the country--knowing what NOT to recommend is just as important (if not more so) than what TO recommend.  I've had some training from Brandon Sanderson's Agent on the ins-and-outs of that job description.  As a result, I read and finish pretty much every popular novel/series in the fantasy genre, and to a lesser extent SF, Horror and Mystery/Thriller.  I have had connections in the publishing industry for years now, and a large number of editors, agents, publicists and authors seem to appreciate my opinions (not to mention the the hundreds of readers who go to my review blog daily).

So, when I say I have an opinion on Terry Goodkind, it is because I have read his work.  All of it.  Same with Terry Brooks who I hate.  Stephanie Meyer who I hate.  Dan Brown who I hate.  If I only read books I liked, from a professional standpoint, I would be uninformed.  If I only read novels I liked, from a personal standpoint, I wouldn't appreciate the awesomeness of great authors as much as I do now.  I read books and series that I absolutely hate.  I do it so I can give people legitimate opinions on a wide variety of novels across various genres and sub-genres.  So don't insult me for having read books I detest so that I can have a complete and informed opinion.  You see, people in a surprising number of countries rely on me for my opinions.

The op asked for novels with strong female leads.  I gave a list of authors who have strong female characters who serve as leads.  A strong lead doesn't mean that they are the only character who has a PoV.  Once again, all of those authors have female characters who serve as leads.  If you've read all of those series, as other readers here will attest, then you know that these authors have some of the strongest female characters in all of literature.

Well that certainly explains why you would read an entire series despite hating it.  However this does not explain how you came to the conclusion that Kahlan is a moron and as for being a damsel in constant distress, does this archetype apply to someone who gets themselves out of trouble most of the time as opposed to a typical helpless damsel waiting for her knight in shining armor to do it?  In any case I won't press the issue, especially when your choices of strong female "leads" consists of cliched one dimensional characters like Ferro, the emotionally crippled warrior woman or Eilonwy the snarky, sarcastic and tough 15 year old girl or Cersei, the beautiful evil queen.   These characters may be interesting to you, but that doesn't make them strong female leads based on their characterization and it doesn't help that they have small supporting roles either.

[Link von Kelsier Harvey XXIV]

Moggle, I'm with Kaz on this one.  Every post you make is for the express purpose of arguing with/being rude to the other forum-goers. I admit, I haven't scoured the website to check all of your posts, but what I've seen doesn't give a very favorable impression.

[Peter Ahlstrom]

Cersei has multiple dimensions and is very interesting. That's one of Martin's strengths...he presents a character that you hate at first, then slowly builds them over time to make them interesting.

[Bookstore Guy]

Well that certainly explains why you would read an entire series despite hating it.  However this does not explain how you came to the conclusion that Kahlan is a moron and as for being a damsel in constant distress, does this archetype apply to someone who gets themselves out of trouble most of the time as opposed to a typical helpless damsel waiting for her knight in shining armor to do it?  In any case I won't press the issue, especially when your choices of strong female "leads" consists of cliched one dimensional characters like Ferro, the emotionally crippled warrior woman or Eilonwy the snarky, sarcastic and tough 15 year old girl or Cersei, the beautiful evil queen.   These characters may be interesting to you, but that doesn't make them strong female leads based on their characterization and it doesn't help that they have small supporting roles either.

Those characters are hardly one-dimensional.  And they are hardly small roles.  Martin has several female characters.  Do I like them all?  Heavens no.  Martin doesn't want you to like characters until he decides it's time for you like them (which is, as Peter puts it, what makes Martin so skilled and awesome).  But that doesn't mean they aren't strong the whole time.  It's all a case of perspective.  Erikson is the same way.  Abercrombie does have Ferro, and he also has Monsa.  Both are awesome.  Just because they aren't light and fluffy doesn't mean they aren't good characters, and solid leads.  Miéville has a main female lead in Perdido Street Station.

As for my conclusion that Kahlan isn't a good character, I explained that just fine earlier.  She isn't actually there for any purpose other than to give Richard a damsel to rescue.  Or to be emo over.  Or to cause un-needed conflict.  She is used to make it seem like Richard is accomplishing something when really he just wanders around and solves things by accident.  She is used to present the "stupid character" plot mechanism.  She does something stupid to reset all the prior growth to the paper-thin relationship she has with Richard.  Then she gets caught.  Richard saves her (again).  Everything is better.  Repeat.  This is a cheap way to add length to a story under the poorly-painted guise of plot movement and character development.  It's the novel equivalent of the will-they-wont-they soap-opera...a formulaic Harlequin Romance novel.  It doesn't actually mean anything.  It's just filler.  So is Kahlan.  This is my opinion.  If you like Goodkind, awesome.  You can be excited that he is now rewriting the Sword of Truth series as a Thriller series now.  It's exactly the same, with the same poorly produced characters (in my opinion).

Also, if you are into SF, DIVING INTO THE WRECK is told completely from a female perspective.  A great introductory SF novel.  I loved it.

As for Terry Brooks, I no longer consider him an adult fantasy writer.  He is YA.  I would recommend him to people to don't want to get bogged down in Lord of the Rings, but still want the same story.  I would recommend him to young teens as a way to get into the genre.  Same with Eddings.  They both have decent/good female leads (as you mentioned by saying Word and the Void), but they are for younger crowds.  9th grade is a perfect place for Brooks and Eddings.  I grew up on both of them--around 6th grade.  Got me into fantasy.  But I won't buy their novels anymore.

[Sigyn]

I'm currently reading God Stalk by P. C. Hodgell, which has a really good female lead but an absolutely awful cover.  Why do bad covers happen to good people?  That question is mostly rhetorical since I think there was a thread about book covers a few months ago.