Author Topic: same old topic: dating sucks, and so does pressure  (Read 5765 times)

Peter Ahlstrom

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same old topic: dating sucks, and so does pressure
« on: June 20, 2004, 11:51:43 PM »
This is probably the thing that makes me madder than anything else: when someone at church says it is a commandment to date.

Baloney!!! It's a commandment to get married and have kids, but dating is NOT a commandment. It's NOT a God-instituted system, and it's NOT scriptural.

While I'm ranting I'll say that another related thing that ticks me off is how often they give a chastity talk in church, yet never actually help people find someone to marry. I estimate that I am 100,000 times more likely to be involved in a car accident in the next 5 years than I am to have sex. I would rather they spend time providing the opportunity for sex (i.e. with someone I am married to, meaning that they provide some assistance on that wise) than spend so much time telling me not to. Am I alone in this? Every time I sit through one of those talks I cannot fathom how to apply it to my own life since I am in approximately zero danger of getting anywhere close to having sex.

Anyway about dating: here's what else sucks: the pressure. All the "anxiously engaged" talks. And the fact that there's a huge double standard. Girls are not expected to exert any effort toward getting married. Guys are always ragged on.

Hey, if there's someone I would be interested in dating, I will ask that person out. I estimate that approximately 50% of the girls I have gone on dates with frequent this message board, so they can attest to this fact. And I HAVE actually been asked on a date by one person, who is also here. (And by the way, all the girls I dated here are married now.) But this is basically a statistical anomaly.

In all the singles wards I've been in, never once has a girl from them asked me out. Yet I make an effort to go to all the functions. I go to ward prayer, break the fast, family home evening, linger longer, ward temple trips, and other things of that sort. I could be staying at home reading books or using the internet, but no, I take the effort to do all those things. But today in Priesthood meeting (after the sisters in the ward shockingly provided the Elder's quorum with Father's Day banana splits as reminders that we should be fathers someday and in return for the dumb practice of giving all the sisters flowers on Mother's Day [no mention of the even stupider practice of giving flowers to all the sisters on Valentine's Day, something I refuse to participate in whenever a ward I'm in does it--come on, Valentine's Day is only for women?]) where the Heber J. Grant lesson was on the value of hard work, the person giving the lesson started talking about how we need to work hard to date, and someone said that all those things I mentioned earlier (FHE, etc) do not count as working toward marriage. The nerve! And THEN someone threw out the "dating is a commandment" line. Baloney. Balderdash.

I'm thinking of starting a website to expound my views on this subject. Unless someone knows of one that already exists. Anyone?

[message too long; continued]
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Peter Ahlstrom

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Re: same old topic: dating sucks, and so does pres
« Reply #1 on: June 20, 2004, 11:51:56 PM »
There has GOT to be a better alternative than this stupid system of dating espoused by our modern LDS (and non-LDS) society.

Personally I've decided on something that I will use the next time I see someone I'm actually interesting in getting to know better for the purpose of mate selection evaluation: date splitting. I'll ask her out and provide for whatever it is I want to do on the date. But then if she wants to go out again, she has to be the one to ask. And she has to provide for everything on the second date. And if there is to be a third, then it's my turn. And so forth. Also, if any girl happens to ask me out (Society Forbid), then I will expect her to privide for it and be quite happy to return the favor for date #2. [I have yet to decide whether in this system 2 dates should be mandatory in all fairness.]

Why would I prefer this system over dutch? This also should help to avoid the huge lying game (lying meaning not telling the truth--for whatever reason, even if the truth might hurt someone's feelings) that mainly girls and sometimes guys resort to when it comes to dating. If you get asked out, it means the person is interested in you. If not, they're not interested. (That's why I'm not sure about making 2 dates mandatory.)

And then something that would maybe be enough of a different problem that it would do for a separate thread, but--it sucks how it's impossible to tell if someone is even interested in looking to get married, or even if they are already seriously dating someone else. Now, in Lois McMaster Bujold's Vorkosigan books there's a very interesting system mentioned approximately twice that is used by the Betans--the very liberal planet--where girls will wear different kinds of earrings signifying their status: looking for something serious, looking for something casual, involved in a serious committed relationship, etc. No mention of whether guys wear earrings too (such would be only fair), but something like this would be a great improvement over our current absence of any signs beyond the engagement/wedding ring thing. I'm not suggesting that earrings would be the best way to do it but it's something that would make the answer quite obvious and it seems to me it would be quite effective.

Okay, I guess there's one more thing. People always criticize me for saying I'm looking for a tall girl, 6'+. Hey, if something else happens, if someone asks me out and I end up hitting it off famously with her and we click and all but she doesn't fit what I thought I was looking for, I'm all cool with that. But that doesn't mean I don't have something I'm looking for. There's things I find attractive, and things I don't find attractive. Not necessarily that I find those things unattractive--though there are some things I find unattractive--but that they're just not things I care about. There's things I don't care about and things I do. Why do I find those things attractive or not? I have only very foggy ideas on that. And I also feel I am opening myself up to even MORE ridicule if I mention what else I look for. What's the big deal there? I'm not looking for someone perfect, but all of the things I'm looking for exist in plenty of women out there, though I've yet found few who have the right combination. Do I expect I'll eventually marry someone who does have that combination? It seems unlikely. Frankly I am dubious any marriage involving me as one of the parties will happen during this lifetime, but there's that one saying--if you can find someone who will satisfy 80% of your needs, you're in very good shape. So hey, miss 80%, if you ignore my hair (or lack thereof) there's surely something I can overlook. (Or if you LIKE my hair (or lack thereof) then there's probably some other need I won't fulfill--perhaps the ability to enjoy Rosencranz and Guildenstern are Dead, for instance.)

Argh. Here's really what I'd prefer: a national mandatory database of people who want to get married, where you say exactly what you're looking for, and a computer hooks you up. Lying punishable by stiff fines--but other than that it would be free. The church should run it.

Anyway this seems sufficiently ranty. I'd be interested to hear what people think about my website idea. Though I'd prefer not to put effort into a website right now, actually. Alas.
« Last Edit: June 20, 2004, 11:56:31 PM by OoklaTheMok »
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fuzzyoctopus

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Re: same old topic: dating sucks, and so does pres
« Reply #2 on: June 21, 2004, 12:04:42 AM »
I guess I thought that's what all those lds dating sites were for.

I grew up heard my mom giving a lot of these arguments, as an older single woman, Ookla. So even if I'm married and it's no longer a problem for me personally... I do think the whole LDS attitude sucks.  A lot.
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Peter Ahlstrom

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Re: same old topic: dating sucks, and so does pres
« Reply #3 on: June 21, 2004, 12:11:37 AM »
er...when were you an older single woman? o.o Or are you referring to your mother? Okay I'm assuming you did mean your mother...so okay, yay. Someone thinks along similar lines. Let's form a club.

Those LDS dating sites aren't free, and they don't have enough specific information for my tastes.

Oh yeah I just remembered, in my last temple recommend interview at the end the stake presidency member asked me if I was anxiously engaged in dating, so I started into my spiel. He clearly got tired of it after a few minutes and quickly finished up the interview.
« Last Edit: June 21, 2004, 12:13:21 AM by OoklaTheMok »
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Gemm: Rock & Roll Star; Born to Rock

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Re: same old topic: dating sucks, and so does pres
« Reply #4 on: June 21, 2004, 12:15:55 AM »
So many things I want to touch on, and yet my mind will only allow me to remember a few.

My thumbs up to the Catholic Church for staying out of my dating life, and my thumbs down to them for not being so active like these LDS things I hear about. I've not done much dating, and right now I'm trying to go about doing so with this one ladyfriend, and yet I'm clueless.

A better way to know who's looking and who isn't? Yeah, that'd be a nice help.
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fuzzyoctopus

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Re: same old topic: dating sucks, and so does pres
« Reply #5 on: June 21, 2004, 12:27:38 AM »
Sorry, I didn't realize that placing that phrase there would be confusing.

And none of the sites are free?? There's got to be a dozen of them, some of them have to be free.  This one seems to be free.  

http://www.ldshearts.com/

Or are they all the kind where it's free to browse but to like get "full" access to the site you have to shell out?


Unfortunately I probably won't be of much help in this thread, unless you are interested in witty, biting comebacks to throw at people who bug you about not being married.  I've already got a couple in mind....
« Last Edit: June 21, 2004, 12:40:18 AM by fuzzyoctopus »
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Maxwell

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Re: same old topic: dating sucks, and so does pres
« Reply #6 on: June 21, 2004, 01:06:07 AM »
ya know I try not to mix religion and dating(intentionally) last time that happenned... well lets just say I cant look at a priest without laughing anymore
back on tiopic I dont think it matters who asks who out, just as long as bothe people like each other, it shouldnt matter who makes the first move, or second for that matter.
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fuzzyoctopus

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Re: same old topic: dating sucks, and so does pres
« Reply #7 on: June 21, 2004, 01:11:17 AM »
/me waits for Ookla to react to the fact that the teenagers are giving him sympathy for dating problems.
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Peter Ahlstrom

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Re: same old topic: dating sucks, and so does pres
« Reply #8 on: June 21, 2004, 01:13:45 AM »
that one may be free, but the "about" thing only says that becoming a member is free--not what that entails or whether they charge for anything else. I've looked a bit in the past and it seems that on most of them you have to pay for something.

The biggest problem though is that with so many sites like this none of them are anywhere near comprehensive, and only a small percentage of the people out there use sites like that.

If there were a site that had EVERYONE on it and charged you $20 if you actually got married, I'd go for that.

Now that I do have an income I'm open to actually looking. It's not a huge high priority or anything...

Gemm, in the LDS church we have this Plan of Salvation thing...getting married is an important part of fulfilling God's plan, so they care about everyone doing it. Well, there is no "they" in the church, since all the church leaders are normal church members, and any member could potentially be called into a leadership position--it's all volunteer based. Well, I don't know how familiar you are with it...stakes (which are geographical divisions consisting of up to 10 or so wards, each ward being a specific congregation based on geography with a set Sunday meeting time [though these times usually rotate yearly among the 2 or 3 wards sharing a single church building]) usually have a branch or ward devoted to young single adults under age 30--the bishop of the ward and his 2 councilors are older people called from the married population of the stake [and bishops serve for up to 10 years maybe, though I don't think I've ever had a bishop serve that long], but all the rest of the positions in the ward are filled by the young single adults themselves.

Anyway... I do like that they have YSA wards, even if I've never felt hugely comfortable in them. I feel much less comfortable in a family ward. I like that YSA wards exist, but I think that if they care so much about people getting married then they should do more about getting them married than just throw them all into a building together and hope something happens. I'm not one of those people who think there's THE ONE person out there for you to marry, but neither am I one who thinks that you'd be compatible enough with 50% of the people that are there. YSA wards ARE quite successful at marrying off a percentage of their members, but it does not work well for everyone. People are different, and what is effective for some is not effective for all.

Maybe 90% of people use Microsoft Windows, but at least there's Macintosh and *n*x for the rest of us.

The LDS Church's genealogy software is available for ONLY the PC. [There was a Mac version before, but it hasn't been updated for 15 years or so.] If you see what I'm saying.
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Peter Ahlstrom

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Re: same old topic: dating sucks, and so does pres
« Reply #9 on: June 21, 2004, 01:17:22 AM »
Quote
/me waits for Ookla to react to the fact that the teenagers are giving him sympathy for dating problems.


Like I know how old people are...

Sheesh. If you're a teenager and you're dating at all, consider that a success.
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Re: same old topic: dating sucks, and so does pres
« Reply #10 on: June 21, 2004, 01:59:49 AM »
Whew!  What a post.  Thanks for shaking things up a bit, Ookla.  Was getting a tad dry around her.

I think the problem is that for the older generation, dating worked better.  I'm not exactly sure why, but I think that the system was more appropriate to their time.  Perhaps the difference in gender roles now is to blame, or perhaps it can be attributed the proliferation of singles bars and other 'sexual revolution' establishments that are the common method for dating outside of our particular religious community.

However, either way, dating just doesn't quite seem to work any more, and the members of the older generation can't fathom what is so problematic with us.
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Re: same old topic: dating sucks, and so does pres
« Reply #11 on: June 21, 2004, 02:22:15 AM »
That's interesting, EUOL.  What do you mean by 'dating' in this, exactly?  Do you mean the normal Mormon practice of "I'll go out to dinner with a series of people I barely know and maybe I'll fall in love with one of them." ?

If so, I have to agree.
« Last Edit: June 21, 2004, 02:22:51 AM by fuzzyoctopus »
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Re: same old topic: dating sucks, and so does pres
« Reply #12 on: June 21, 2004, 02:32:37 AM »
Ookla, I can't tell you how many times in the last number of years I've sat through the chastity talk thinking the same thing. I think I (or maybe it was someone else who was just as frustrated) even raised my hand at one point in one of them and said, "Um, this is all well and good, but this doesn't apply to me. Ya wanna put me in a position where this *might* apply?"

Here's what I'll tell you from a girl's perspective, though. I'm nearly 30 (augh) and in the last five years, I've gone out on maybe 4 dates. Never a second date. I make friends, I hang out, I express my interest and suggest activities if we have mutual interests.

But there's no way I'll ever ask a guy out again.

You have to understand--and perhaps you're different, but very few guys know this till it happens to them--when a girl asks a guy out, he gets all nervous: "Oh, wow, she must like me a lot, I'm not ready for that, I don't like her like that" etc. And they run scared. When all the girl is thinking is what a guy would be thinking had he asked her out the first time--that she'd like to hang out with him more, get to know him. But a girl asking a guy out--nothing good has ever come of it, in my experience.

One thing I've learned in my life: if a guy is interested in me, he'll ask me out. And usually they don't ask me out, so I just have to assume that I'm not the type of girl guys are interested in. As I've ranted about before, I can be the "friend-girl" all I want, but they never want more.

Dating is just messed up. Nobody gets it, and the older we get, the more stressful it is, and the more isolated we are.

I think if we all dated more it wouldn't be such a huge deal when someone got asked out, so we wouldn't have the stupid stealth dating and guys stressing over whether the girl is too into him or whatever. As it is, most of the girls I know don't go on dates. Ever. And so if you only go on one date a year, or one date every two years, then a date becomes a big thing, something you've finally qualified for or something. We put way too much pressure on ourselves.
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Re: same old topic: dating sucks, and so does pres
« Reply #13 on: June 21, 2004, 02:39:08 AM »
Oh, and I've been really enjoying www.ldslinkup.com. It's not really a dating site, more of an LDS Friendster. It's searchable by interests, though, and a variety of other things, and it has a message board (which is actually annoying me right now because every single thread turns into mindless banter, but anyway).

It's free right now, though they say eventually they plan on making people pay for it. You can't browse without registering, though. The fun thing about it is that you can see how you're linked to people--who knows who, that kind of thing. It's got single and married people on it. You add your friends, they add theirs, etc. I'm stacer on there as well.
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Re: same old topic: dating sucks, and so does pres
« Reply #14 on: June 21, 2004, 02:57:10 AM »
*I'm succsesfull!*
You guys think too much ya know that? Dont get stressed, just hang out with them in a social enviroment, and if something is gonna happen the people around you will slowly decrease in number each time you hang out, until it's just two of you. besides internet dating... imho is a BAD IDEA. I know it works for some people, but it's not personal enough, ya got to actually meet the person.
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