Author Topic: January 2nd- Dark Prophecy- Part Time Angel, Prologue and Ch. 1-4  (Read 1946 times)

Dark_Prophecy

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As always, rip it apart gentlemen. I especially would like to know things about setting, dialogue, and showing vs. telling. You guys are fantastic, now please tear me a new one.

I like basketball, hanging out with my friends, reading, slamming a garbage can into a pimp or two with magical heavenly powers. You know, teenager stuff.

Asmodemon

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Re: January 2nd- Dark Prophecy- Part Time Angel, Prologue and Ch. 1-4
« Reply #1 on: January 03, 2010, 03:49:05 PM »
Let me start off by saying I really liked the prologue and the first chapter. It really sets the tone and makes me interested in reading more. I don’t say this lightly because in general I really don’t like first person stories. The third chapter works for me very well too, it’s a nice way to introduce Agathan and not Ben as one might expect. The pacing for these three chapters is really good.

I did see some problems with chapter two and four in regards of you telling the reader and not showing it, as well as being info dumps.

Chapter Two:

The first page is basically an info dump to explain Mateo’s power (we already know some, because he used it just a chapter ago), the organisation (at this point in the story do we really need to know just how long they have existed?), and how he met Benedict. It’s all tell and not show at all. It slows the story down as well as the impact of just having witnessed a murder.

If you remove the first page and just go right into Mateo driving and trying to stay calm the flow of the story works much better. There are other ways to get the above information across to the reader. For instance, as his trainer it’s not that odd for Benedict to check up on Mateo, maybe as he is picking groceries for his family. One off-hand comment about how this was just like how they first met and it feels more natural to get that information.

The same for the organisation’s history. Benedict could say that, in their century’s old history, things like this have happened before. Now the reader knows the organisation is old and it doesn’t feel like an info dump.

Chapter Four:

Its question and answer time. This is an easy way to get information across to the reader, disguising the info dump as a conversation. That doesn’t change that it is an info dump. As such it is my inclination to say that it might be better to scratch this as well and address the issues in some other way. Instead of Q&A just have a little talk between Ben and Mateo on what bothers him.

During the Q&A session some of the core issues are:

- Choice and free will: Benedict explains this right off the bat, alleviating Mateo’s worries. To me coming to grips with the consequences of choice and free will seems like a conflict Mateo can struggle with the whole book. What Ben explains to him can become much stronger if, over the course of time, he realizes this on his own.
- Limitations: Mateo should know some of these already. The biggest thing is that he couldn’t stop Sheila, which is because of free will. Leave the answer at free will and then let Mateo figure out the rest in time.
- Unforeseen consequences: Works pretty well as it is.

The big problem with the Q&A, and I realize you can’t always avoid this, is that it slows the pacing down. You’re only a few pages into the story; try to keep the pace fast for a while longer to really hook the readers in. I suggest you sneak in the setting information over time and in small portions.

And then you get to the end of chapter four. Very nice cliff-hanger, I like that.

lethalfalcon

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Re: January 2nd- Dark Prophecy- Part Time Angel, Prologue and Ch. 1-4
« Reply #2 on: January 04, 2010, 12:55:02 AM »
The prologue is pretty good. It gives you a bit of mystery to keep you reading.

Chapter one seems a bit better now, being told strictly from Mateo's view, too.

I'll agree with Asmodemon (man, your name is going to get typed Asmodean so much on here...) on the assessment of chapter 2. The problem as I see it is that you're not going to be reminiscing much when you're freaking out about seeing a murder. You're going to be adrenaline-pumped (fight or flight mode). So you're going to be focusing on the here and now, not three months ago. Personally, I would consider moving the flashbacks until he's in a more calm environment, like his room. You want to keep the tension ramped on his "getaway", and then slowly cool off as he gets home and he realizes he's in the clear. It's a bit bumpy right now, with tension, flashback, then more tension.

There is some info-dumping about the organization, too, but you definitely have to watch how you say things. If the person wouldn't say it naturally, then don't force them into a verbal info-dump. Regarding Asmodemon's comment about this, you'd probably have to go with something like "Look Matt, we've been around for centuries. We've got you covered." or something. Show the experience, but in the natural tone (which from most of your book, seems to be a fairly light, almost comical one).

Chapter 3 I didn't like so much. The only thing you do is introduce Agathan and set up what your chapter 4 is going to be about (the final meeting). I think a part of it is because I was instantly suspicious that this wasn't Benedict giving the message, because of the way he freaked out about it. Also, why wouldn't Benedict just call him? For that matter, why wouldn't any of them? I'd imagine a phone call is a little easier than making scrolls appear out of thin air. :P I don't know. It just doesn't have much happening compared to your other chapters.

Chapter 4: hrm. Well, I know you need to start dropping information, but again, I think Asmodemon has it right that you need to make it a little more natural. Ben's a bit too verbose in his descriptions, which makes it feel like you're just doing it for the sake of the reader, even if Matt has the same questions. Honestly, I would have expected some of these questions to be answered by now, if he's been doing this all summer (not that all of his jobs would be this involved, but still). You also have some fairly large paragraphs in this chapter, which I would avoid (half a page is pretty big even for an adult novel).

Okay, so here are some difficult situations for you, since I'm one to find faults with systems in general.

First: How can Mateo hit Barry with a trash can with enough force to knock him over? I would think this would violate his restrictions on his powers, personally. Especially given a head shot, that's likely to cause some permanent damage, even without a slit throat afterward. I'm not sure whether the Guardian Angels have to follow the rules a little more strictly or not, but I would make them. Bludgeoning someone isn't very nice.

Second: There is an innate problem with the scenario. By hitting Barry, you are restricting his ability to carry out his free will. Any time two people are a part of the equation, if their wills differ, you're going to be stopping one to help the other. I'm not at all sure how you want to deal with this, or explain it away, but this could become a very big problem throughout a whole book. It's more than a little hypocritical to say that you can't interfere with Sheila killing Barry when you presented the opportunity by knocking him half-unconscious and preventing him from escaping. Barry *could* have chosen to let her go, too, but once he was on the ground that choice was completely removed. Fun, eh?

Third: Can an Angel use telekinesis on a person? They aren't particularly heavy objects in comparison, so why not just freeze them in place? This still removes their free will for the time, but it's a lot nicer than a can to the head. Or, why not just move them away? Let Sheila get out of the alley and be long gone before letting him go.  Ben says you can't use mind-control, but telekinesis certainly has no restrictions on body control.

Fourth: Okay, so telekinesis is a very versatile power. What would be their "second level" powers? Honestly, there are very few situations I could think of that I wouldn't be able to solve with TK alone. Car crash? Stop one of the cars. Building falling on someone? Move them out of the way or push falling debris away from their position. Nuclear missile attack? Deflect it. See where I'm going? They already have more than enough power, so what's the power ladder look like?

Hopefully these situations/questions give you some things to think about moving forward.
I don't have good days. I have great days, where I'm a magician ridding the world of all evil, or at least everything I don't like. And then I wake up, and it's back to work for me.

Frog

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Re: January 2nd- Dark Prophecy- Part Time Angel, Prologue and Ch. 1-4
« Reply #3 on: January 05, 2010, 01:53:26 AM »
Well I am going to tell you right out front. I like your concept A LOT more than I like your current execution/writing style. Reading this was a bit of a let down to me because I could see it being so much better. Here we go with your evil critique.

Most of this is going to come out in my comments on the actual document, but here are my main problems.
I liked your narrator, but be careful with all his side comments, dialect and places where he directly addresses the reader. Those kind of things distract from the story and bloat up your writing unnecessarily. Doing it a little is great and humorous, but I think right now you are over doing it to the point that it really bothered me.

Also, if you write in first person your character is your story and you really have to start there so you can avoid a lot of the confusion you have in the beginning. Show me Mat (who he is, where he is, what he is doing) first, at least briefly, and show me everything else.

That being said, I felt the prologue and much of the first chapter was confusing. I can understand that you want to hook with action and get to the meat of your story quickly, but you are doing it at the expense of your character, world and setting and it just doesn't work.  If I don't know all the stakes (all the 'whys'  and 'whats') I have no reason to care who is stabbing who. Having a flashback/flashforward to the action briefly for a hook is fine, but that is all secondary to the story itself. Personally, I feel that your concept is interesting enough that you could easily spend a chapter or two just character/world building through scenes (not long summations) and then all your action and plot would be that much better as it comes.

Rather than summing up his whole initiation and interactions with the upper angels, why not start there and show us some of this happening there by avoiding a lot of the time breaks and other points of confusion? I have about the same attention span as the average teenager (or rather the average teenager that reads for 'fun') and generally when you start to sum things up, I start skimming and I don't want to be skimming that much in the first few chapters. Either build the important information into scenes or drop it all together because I'm not reading it anyway. :P

Also, make sure that the character's thoughts/dialogue fit the situation or it just doesn't work.

Really, this felt to me like I was reading a sequel. Like in the last book you had Mat become an angel, get his powers and had everything firmly established through that summer and now you are quickly orientating us so we can get to the next story.

I agree that the third chapter was basically useless, especially since the guy really didn't seem to have anything all that important to say and that your dialogue/paragraphs run too long to be natural. I also agree that some of the 'core issues' Asmodemon mentioned were too quickly tossed aside and that a lot of these issues seemed like they should have come up earlier in the summer.

I think that is all the big stuff... it is all in my comments anyway and let me know if you have any questions. Like I said, I think your concept it great and something I would like to read if you can pull it off. Good luck. :)
I've already conquered the world. This is exactly the way I want it.

LongTimeUnderdog

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Re: January 2nd- Dark Prophecy- Part Time Angel, Prologue and Ch. 1-4
« Reply #4 on: January 06, 2010, 06:09:03 AM »
I'm going to totally disagree with just about everything and say I thought the narrative was hilarious.  My quom with it is actually when we're getting the run down of the job, and he switches to "Someone just died."  I was enjoying the narrative to much to really appreciate that.  Despite the horrific incident, I was chuckling too hard to care.  When it comes up again at Benedict session, I was more appreciative of it.

And what do you mean he's questioning working again next summer?  Two words, buddy.  Super . . . powers.

Dark_Prophecy

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Re: January 2nd- Dark Prophecy- Part Time Angel, Prologue and Ch. 1-4
« Reply #5 on: January 10, 2010, 02:40:15 PM »
Well, it sounds like the issue with the Third person to First person switch worked, at least. Honestly, I'm a little bummed out at my own execution of the story right now, but I'll get over it.

Looks like the next thing I need to worry about is getting the info lumps out of my background potatoes, or something like that. I'll note it and move on.

I've decided to just write for a while, just typing from point a to b, not trying to polish anything until the novel's done. So it might be a while until I submit again. If you're craving the story, just drop me a line and I'll email it to ya as I get things finished. Warning, it will probably be a lot rougher than it is right now, sadly enough.

Whoa, depression rears its ugly head. I need to go get some sleep and stop being bummed out about my writing. This is my first time ever trying to write anything, for heaven's sake. Off to bed to regroup.

Oh, and as always, I truly do appreciate the feedback. You guys are turning me and my book into something much better than we both started as. :D
I like basketball, hanging out with my friends, reading, slamming a garbage can into a pimp or two with magical heavenly powers. You know, teenager stuff.

Frog

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Re: January 2nd- Dark Prophecy- Part Time Angel, Prologue and Ch. 1-4
« Reply #6 on: January 10, 2010, 08:52:43 PM »
Agg!!! I killed another one. Bad, Frog, bad. Let me say again I would never want anyone to feel too discouraged by anything I say. I am only one obnoxious individual with strange tastes and zero credentials. We all have to start somewhere. I can understand taking a submission break just to get some more things written down (I do it all the time) but if you ever stop writing all together I will come after you with a pitchfork. And let me assure you, a frog with a pitchfork is a very scary proposition. Probably more scary for the frog then the person in question, but the intent is there.  :P
I've already conquered the world. This is exactly the way I want it.

LongTimeUnderdog

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Re: January 2nd- Dark Prophecy- Part Time Angel, Prologue and Ch. 1-4
« Reply #7 on: January 10, 2010, 10:05:01 PM »
You can't stop writing this story.  I wait with eager glee for all of the installments.

Dark_Prophecy

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Re: January 2nd- Dark Prophecy- Part Time Angel, Prologue and Ch. 1-4
« Reply #8 on: January 11, 2010, 08:11:06 AM »
Oh, I'm not stopping writing, gentlemen. It takes more than that to scare me away. :D I was a little bummed out, but that doesn't mean I didn't appreciate the criticism. I need that stuff. If I can't take an honest critique from a person I've never met, how am I ever supposed to be an author :P

Sorry that the previous post was so dramatic. I was tired and more than just a little frustrated with my job and whatnot. Rest assured that work will continue, and I can't stay away from this place for long, so I'm almost sure I'll submit something soon even though it's not finished :D

Frog, you're the man, and your honest, which is great. Don't worry, you haven't "killed" me, you've just made me consider some things. In fact, the only reason your comments bummed me out at all was because I was thinking some of the exact same things about the story that you suggested. :D
I like basketball, hanging out with my friends, reading, slamming a garbage can into a pimp or two with magical heavenly powers. You know, teenager stuff.

LongTimeUnderdog

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Re: January 2nd- Dark Prophecy- Part Time Angel, Prologue and Ch. 1-4
« Reply #9 on: January 11, 2010, 01:41:20 PM »
Frog's a chick.

Dark_Prophecy

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Re: January 2nd- Dark Prophecy- Part Time Angel, Prologue and Ch. 1-4
« Reply #10 on: January 11, 2010, 05:10:38 PM »
Well, that's just....awesome! :D
I like basketball, hanging out with my friends, reading, slamming a garbage can into a pimp or two with magical heavenly powers. You know, teenager stuff.

Frog

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Re: January 2nd- Dark Prophecy- Part Time Angel, Prologue and Ch. 1-4
« Reply #11 on: January 11, 2010, 10:25:11 PM »
That doesn't mean I can't still be 'the man'... :P

Good luck. :)
I've already conquered the world. This is exactly the way I want it.

Recovering_Cynic

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Re: January 2nd- Dark Prophecy- Part Time Angel, Prologue and Ch. 1-4
« Reply #12 on: January 14, 2010, 04:52:04 AM »
I'll give you my stream of conscious thoughts first, then I'll read everyone's comments and evaluate the chapter.

Okay, so up to this point, I'm liking your first version better.  You seem to have lost some of Mateo's voice in this draft.  The prologue needs more of a hook, more personality, more humor, something.  It fell flat for me. 

The flashback to training with Ben comes way to early.  Yours story is losing momentum.

Now on to the completely new stuff...

Ben's sermon about choice needs some interjected thoughts on Mateo's part.  It needs some breaking up.  And it's still going . . . It needs some serious trimming.  Your story is losing its spunk, which is its most attractive feature.

Yay!  Something sinister finally happened! If it hadn't, I would have been seriously prodding you to make it so!

Anyway, I looked at the comments below, and Asmodemon summed up everything I really had to say, so I'll just ditto him. . .
this is the way the world ends,
not with a bang, but a whimper
~T.S. Eliot