Author Topic: Nov. 9 - Frog - DR - Chp 1&6 Rewrite  (Read 2550 times)

Frog

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Nov. 9 - Frog - DR - Chp 1&6 Rewrite
« on: November 09, 2009, 12:20:19 AM »
Voice all complaints here. Thanks all.
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lethalfalcon

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Re: Nov. 9 - Frog - DR - Chp 1&6 Rewrite
« Reply #1 on: November 09, 2009, 02:13:18 AM »
I'm complaining. You have stuff done, and I don't! Bwah!

Ahem. Anyway, this intrigues me, although I must say my biggest gripe is that I don't see what happened to Mordin. I can guess, and perhaps mystery is the point, but it's just a little awkward to see him 5 chapters later and he's semi-normal again. Since I'm coming into this a bit later in the game, maybe I just need to read the other 4 chapters in the middle to understand a little more.

I really like how positive and lighthearted Jade is. She seems the type to lift the spirits of almost everyone she meets (which is a very good quality to have as a tavern owner, certainly). I also like how Raven's a bit rough around the edges. A very demanding woman, no doubt. Your characters all seem to be very distinct, which I enjoy.

I'm also pleased with how you end the chapters. A direct action, and then the set fades. It reminds me a lot of how the scenes of plays usually end. In fact, I'd almost say that your writing in general is like a play. This would hold in line with it being more like a fairy tale, although perhaps that's just my opinion. I still like it.

On the flipside, I think that chapter 6 is a little light on anything happening. This might be a prejudice from me reading thick novels, but the only thing I see is Mordin putting another pawn into play. Are any of his other pawns ever revealed? Seeing him as a manipulator to more than just Raven would probably be good, if only to flesh out his character more (and the changes that happened to him, I'm guessing).  It also seems that Raven's resistance to joining the temple disappears rather quickly. It almost makes me think that Mordin used some sort of coercion magic on her.

I'm also a little awestruck that a thirteen year-old girl is so... sexually charged. Then again, I've never thought women made any sense anyway, especially in that department (apologies to any women reading this). I know she's grown up in a bit of rough territory, but wow.

Still, I did read through it quickly (and then two more times for nuances), which means it kept my attention. Keep it up! :)

Also, I'm not sure what your (or anybody's) desire is to get line-level edits, but I put digital sticky notes on your document. If you want them, feel free to let me know, and I'll send them to you via email.
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Frog

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Re: Nov. 9 - Frog - DR - Chp 1&6 Rewrite
« Reply #2 on: November 09, 2009, 03:58:33 AM »
Thank you! A lot of us (including me… alright fine, mostly me) get hard into critique mood so usually we just get edits (which is great, you know I need them) but it’s nice to get the good stuff too, even though I know this probably isn’t anything you would pick up on your own.

That’s a big concern for me right now, the confusion vs mystery factor. I am guessing I’ll be in my tenth or twentieth draft before I get it down at this point. Really I am afraid everything would be overly obvious if I do anymore than I have so I might need to cut Mordin completely before Aishia actually meets him to take out the confusion. I don’t want to, but he does tend to make life a bit more difficult (which is part of his job, but yeah). And no, you didn’t miss anything from his character. All the other stuff is from Aishia & Jin’s (the Djinni) POV and they are just barely getting to Kalum at this point.

To be honest Raven is a harder character for me to write for that very reason and I may be going a bit over the top. Problem with ages in fairy-tale land is most girls marry a lot younger so I have to make them act a bit older then a modern girl if you know what I mean.  Don’t worry though. Aishia at least is very modest. :P

Yes, please send over line-edits if you have them. I am terrible with grammar and always appreciate it.
« Last Edit: November 09, 2009, 06:02:51 AM by Frog »
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Re: Nov. 9 - Frog - DR - Chp 1&6 Rewrite
« Reply #3 on: November 09, 2009, 05:15:24 AM »
I like the new chapters!  They fit much better and explain the relationship between Raven and Mordin quite well.  The characterization is good and they are engaging.  Well done.

I really only have one critique: Mordin and Raven kiss after only a few lines of dialogue.  They have never kissed, never even flirted really.  Heck, this is their first conversation.  There needs to be some flirtation going on, even just a little, something to make Raven buying into Mordin more believable.  I totally didn't see the kiss/relationship coming the way it is currently written.  Other than some grammar stuff, I don't see anything that's a major problem.  Keep it coming.
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Re: Nov. 9 - Frog - DR - Chp 1&6 Rewrite
« Reply #4 on: November 11, 2009, 02:42:55 PM »
So I haven't read any of your stuff before, so forgive me if my comments repeat others', and of course jumping into chapter six  is a little difficult... You'll get my line corrections on email.

Just to note, I tend to be a bit nit-picky and focus on the negative. It's not because I don't like your story, it's just because I like to be thorough in suggesting improvements.

I will mention that in terms of character names "Mordin" looks an awful lot like Moridin from Wheel of Time, so I automatically think about him whenever I see his name on the page. I also think I read on an agent blog once that she throws out every manuscript with a character named Raven in it because it's the most common name she sees in Y.A. literature.

Anyway, onto the story:

Normally I assume that the first person mentioned in the chapter is the POV character so the fact that we're in Mordin's point of view threw me. I'd like to see some indication of his age right off the bat, especially since this is a Y.A. novel. I liked your beginning, though I thought you could play it up more and show her saying something stupid. I wonder if maybe you should start with the bag, or the princess doing something with the bag that intrigues his interest. Or maybe later...there seems to be a lot of info-dumping in this chapter (in the dialogue but still info-dumping) and not a lot of action. I don't really need the info about islands and stuff until later, unless you're going to suddenly go into the islands in chapter 2. Maybe start the book when he opens the bottle he stole from the princess. Or a Raven POV arguing with how she doesn't want to go to the temple. Or your real main character suffering from the ramifications of the genie. There's just too little conflict in this chapter for an opening.

I like Mordin's voice. I have a soft spot for arrogant characters since I'm an unsufferably arrogant person myself  ::). I wonder what he thinks she could have in her bag. Magic? Potions? Magic potions? It would tell us something about the world if he thought about it.

I like the conversation between the brothers. Fun on accident. Heh. Some good fluid language--he didn't want to have that conversation again as much as he didn't want to meet his parents.

Some of your details tend to be vague. Dark green cloak? Dark brown? Does Mordin dress in black (like Moridin?) I feel like you're neglecting a lot of your five senses. What does the banquet/city/tavern smell like? Can the musicians at the wedding dance keep a tune?

I'm really curious about a world where a prince (at least, I'm assuming a prince since his brother married a princess) can wander into a tavern without comment. I also find it strange that Mordin, who despised the common princess, is so comfortable having a conversation about politics with a bar maid. It seems like his prejudices would go against that.

How old is he? In the first chapter you say he's only "a little older than 13" and then later it's something like seventeen or eighteen. You need to specify, especially in Y.A. And I wonder about the ramifications of a 13-year-old bar maid... The bar maid is a pretty cliche career anyway. And you should really be foreshadowing Raven's interest in the prince here, if there's gonna be some sparks here.

His mother was always threatening to faint over something. Heh.

Your dialogue is a little heavy on the attribution tags.

What does a noble's sword look like? A rapier? A broadsword?

Hmm...I'm having a hard time picturing a twelve-year-old or whatever age Jade was when she arrived in the city taking over a tavern. You'll have to be more specific? Did she win it in battle? Did she somehow earn enough money to buy the place? Or better yet, if it's not important to the plot, cut it.

Why did Jade's eyes go to the feather? Shouldn't the news distract her from worrying about admirers?

Does Jade have parental authority over Raven? I kind of figure a thirteen-year-old girl would simply refuse to go if there's no adult power involved. All of Jade's physical cues--looking away and fidgeting with rags--suggest Jade doesn't have that strong of a will, so you might want to fix that.

Always easier to talk to Jade? How long has Mordin been going to taverns?

Heh. Drinking a genie. Heh. I think the djinne needs a little more physical description.

From the way Mordin was talking about Cilla earlier, I was thinking she was a love interest who had left him and made him morose about weddings. Not that she was the princess.

Corporal form in another realm needs to be explained more. Why corporal? What other realm?

The word dragonet makes me think of an internet...powered by dragons. Which would be awesome.

Free the djinni just like that? This prince is unbelievably naive. The djinni needs to be a little more convincing.

I think you have some great dialogue here and an interesting situation.  It looks like you've got some complexity in the islanders vs. locals. There's a lot of bits I think you can cut out, like do we need to know why Jade keeps an inkwell under the counter? I also worry that, while I like a lot about the chapter, there's nothing that makes it stick out to me. It feels very Dragonlance where we're hanging with Tika before Goldmoon comes in.

---

Chapter 6:

We're back at the bar. Like I said, any book that opens in a tavern is a tough sell for me because its so D&D cliche. And this is an awful lot of underage drinking if you're going Y.A.

He knows Raven's name right off in the first chapter. Why does he struggle with it this time?

I presume he wants to destroy the demon immediately, but learning temple magic would, I expect, take years and years. So his plan for Raven isn't very good, right now.

Are your people called relics? Relics usually refers to objects.

Gah? Your seventeen/eighteen-year-old protagonist is making out with a thirteen-year-old? Ucky, unless you're going for a more realistic George R.R. Martin style fantasy. You mentioned in one of your comments about how girls marry younger in fairy tale land. I've seen some arguments about this subject on some other forums, and I've come down on the view that yeah, well most wives were beaten and locked up and the peasants had no teeth either in the REAL medieval ages, so why not come down on modern sensibilities on minors marrying, too?

I think your character is going to lose a lot of sympathy for using Raven that way. If that's your intention, cool, but if this were the first chapter, I doubt I'd keep reading.

I'd agree that the kiss is awfully quick. And she seems awfully willing for someone furious just a moment ago.

Some good stuff, here. Minor tweaks.

Frog

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Re: Nov. 9 - Frog - DR - Chp 1&6 Rewrite
« Reply #5 on: November 11, 2009, 05:42:11 PM »
Wow, thanks for all the stuff Veggie.

I didn't realize that about the 'Wheel of Time' names. I read those so long ago that I only really remember the MCs. Mordin and my main girl (Aishia) was just me playing with Aladdin to be perfectly honest. With that, I should probably tell you I really prefer to twist about established plots and stories. I doubt anything I have will be breath takingly original. You tell me 'that's cliche" and I will say, "Well duh."

And no I don't expect you to love him at this point.

As for everything else. Gah! I agree with most, if not all, of it but it seems I have a lot to work to do....

Oh, and Cynic, I agree with you completely. I don't think I was as committed to the scene as I need to be to do it justice...

Thank you!
« Last Edit: November 11, 2009, 05:47:18 PM by Frog »
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Chaos

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Re: Nov. 9 - Frog - DR - Chp 1&6 Rewrite
« Reply #6 on: November 11, 2009, 08:42:43 PM »
Hokay. This is, um, going to sound negative, Frog, and I apologize. Let me say that I liked Aishia far better character-wise.

Overall, Mordin does not feel real. He does not feel like a real character in the slightest. Here are my real-time comments ;)


 It seems odd to me that Mordin would continue to refer to Cilla as "the princess". Shouldn't he know her name if she is going to marry his brother? Also, I was moderately perplexed, because I'd thought Cilla was some foreign princess, but then I realized she's the NEW princess of Kalum. Right, it's their wedding. Probably just me being dumb.

Your characterization of Mordin seems... off to me. He seems quite one-dimensional, as he's just "rawr people annoy me and I have some problem I don't want to talk about which is vaguely related to it!"

How old is Mordin?

The bit about explaining Jade's past seems mostly irrelevant to the scene itself. I think the dialogue speaks for itself. Or at least, the background info could be streamlined so it doesn't jolt me out of the story so well.

Your ages are hard to place. I'd guess if this is YA people would assume they are younger, but I had the impression that both Mordin and Jade were quite adult. I thought Raven was Jade's daughter.

Wow, Mordin sure freed the Djinni quickly. I don't know, when spirits have eyes of fire I'd probably be a little cautious. Either way, Mordin is not drunk enough to agree to freeing the djinni near instantly.

Well, Mordin's motivations came out of Nowhere-ville. I absolutely need hints on this motivation of his earlier, because it seems very contrived.

Whoa, um. Thirteen year old? She's, uh, lively. I suppose.


Okay, so going off of that, I did not feel that I knew Mordin. He had absolutely no internal conflict, which made him boring to read, and unrealistic. His motivations don't feel real, and though there's "something that happened to him in the past", that is a complete cop-out. He's not mysterious, it's not cool, it's not unique. All it is is bland, because he doesn't seem like a real person. His intentions--we're in his viewpoint, if he's a manipulator it should probably come across his mind that he's manipulating people--were undefined so they came from nowhere. He's not even especially malevolent. I could get behind him if he was really evil, solely on the merit of bada**ness. He's not that, however, he just kind of bumbles along for contrived reasons and miraculously gets a pawn in place, seemingly by accident.

And no I don't expect you to love him at this point.

I must disagree, I'm afraid. I don't have to like him, certainly (which I think is what you meant), but I do have to believe him as a human being. Once I believe that, I'll begin to understand him, and understanding, I think, is a form love. Or at least likeability.

I have to wonder what your goal is with these Mordin chapters. If you're writing tale stuff, Mordin seems to be your villain. Writing chapters from the antagonist's point of view is fun, from a writer's standpoint. But the question must be asked: what's the point? What does this character give that you can't get from someone else? With an antagonist, he's generally planning and manipulative, so a primary advantage is that we get a unique insight that the heroes could never get themselves. Either that, or we get a very different world-view to the world which adds to the depth of the world. Or finally, the character is going through struggles, and it's satisfying to the audience when they overcome (or succumb) their struggles.

With Mordin, I'm not feeling any of these things. I have no idea what he's planning to do, his worldview isn't really different as much as angry, and I see no internal conflict for him to overcome. To me, that's what made this submission distinctly... unfun.

The most interesting was the interaction with releasing the Djinni, but I don't get to see the effects of it, so it feels like another contrived plot element. Wouldn't Mordin wonder why the silly new princess would have a Djinni in her bag? ...
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Re: Nov. 9 - Frog - DR - Chp 1&6 Rewrite
« Reply #7 on: November 11, 2009, 08:56:21 PM »
I guess from earlier comments I was getting the impression that people were bored with Aishia as she takes so long to find the plot on her own, I wanted to use Mordin to bring it out earilier. He doesn't really have to be there and may yet be cut. And I could make Raven slightly older, but she was always supposed to be an 'early bloomer.'

Back to the drawing board it seems...

Thanks for reading!
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Re: Nov. 9 - Frog - DR - Chp 1&6 Rewrite
« Reply #8 on: November 11, 2009, 09:28:20 PM »
:(

I'm sorry, my critique seemed really harsh. I don't know about Aishia, as I only read up to chapter 2 for her, but she was interesting. The character interactions seemed real, and were fun to read. This chapter's character interactions seemed uninspired. When it comes down to it, I'd rather read a book that was a little slow to start, but with awesome characters, rather something plot-centered (If I read this Mordin Chapter 1, I'm afraid I would put the book down). In which case, that Prologue is even more essential to set up promises that would pay off far in advance.

Are you going to rewrite Aishia's chapters, too, or should I go directly to critiquing your older DR submissions?
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Frog

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Re: Nov. 9 - Frog - DR - Chp 1&6 Rewrite
« Reply #9 on: November 11, 2009, 09:38:45 PM »
Na, it is all good. I always submit figuring everyone and their dogs are going to hate it and it serves me right for submitting fairy tales to a group full of epic/adult writiers. I don't think I will be ready to publish anything for a long, long time so I really just see this as practice anyway.

I think I am probably that way too. I love characters and don't mind slower books myself. Just experimenting I guess.

Did you really like the prologue? Because I am considering scraping it and doing a very condensed version of this. Just bringing out him trying to drink the djinni before freeing it or something because I really like that image and one of the main reasons I made Mordin a drunk... that and it fits in his character for lots of reasons I am not telling you because I am the most irritating writer ever. :P

As to what to have you read, I really don't know. I was planing on skiping around, but I'm rethinking a few more things and may end up changing things up a bit more. I'll get back to you on that.   ;)
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Re: Nov. 9 - Frog - DR - Chp 1&6 Rewrite
« Reply #10 on: November 11, 2009, 09:52:58 PM »
Let's frame it this way.

The Prologue had conflict. Conflict is interesting.

Mordin had no internal conflict. At best, he had some minor interpersonal conflicts with Cilla and Raven. Now, had you framed the scene with the character having specific objectives and goals, and drove onward to situations with lots of conflict, then you'd have my interest. I liked the djinni because it was a surprise. Who knew Cilla would have something like that? That was a great twist, and it should be capitalized to the max!

Aishia's situation was interesting. The conflict with her and the genie was interesting.

So, conflict is interesting. :)

If you're cutting the prologue, start with Aishia, not Mordin.
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Re: Nov. 9 - Frog - DR - Chp 1&6 Rewrite
« Reply #11 on: November 11, 2009, 10:17:58 PM »
I would actually disagree with you there. Mordin has plenty of internal conflict. I may not have bringing it out as well as I could have because I am still trying to figure out what all I want to reveal at this point, but in that way his character is probably more interesting than Aishia, which is why he drives more of the plot at this point and it takes Aishia so freaking long to find it. :P
But you have given me stuff to think about, so thank you. I probably will have to discuss this more with someone who knows the full plot before I figure out, but I'll let you know what I come up with. 
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Re: Nov. 9 - Frog - DR - Chp 1&6 Rewrite
« Reply #12 on: November 13, 2009, 03:41:03 AM »
I will say, having never read any of your previous DR stuff, I was still able to follow the chapter fairly easily. So, here are my comments:

Firstly, I have to agree with whoever mentioned Wheel of Time. Every single time I see Mordin, I think of Moridin from WoT. I even started to type Moridin instead of Mordin right there. I don't know, maybe this is a good association. Moridin runs around wearing black all the time, and generally being insane. If this is the feel that you're going for, it's a good association.

Also, is Mordin supposed to be the antagonist? Because he comes across as very anti-hero/misunderstood-protagonist-ish, and if he's supposed to be the antagonist, he also comes across as remarkably incompetent.

I, too, thought that Cillia was a previous love interest. I think it might be the line where Mordin says, "Cillia has nothing to do with it," cutting off Ednar. It makes it seem like it's a very touchy issue for him, and they've just been discussing love interests. Then, after we've established that it's a touchy subject, he says:

Quote
Despite this, they had been close growing up. Mordin had looked up to him and still did after a fashion, though most of his relationships had been strained in the last few years, even before Cilla. Ever since….

The way this is worded implied (at least to me it did) that Cillia was one of those strained relationships, or that she was someone who both brothers had been interested in, leading to some strain between them. The current princess didn't even occur to me as a possibility. So later, when we found out that Cillia was the current princess, it was like, "What? She's Cillia?"

I also agree with whoever said that he needs to think of the new princess as Cillia. If he knows her well enough to know her name, he would think about her using her name. Especially since he's a prince himself.

The whole thing with the bag seemed kind of sudden and random. It was like, "Oh, I'm upset that this crazy chick is marrying my brother. Hmmm. Hey look, her bag is conveniently right here after I was just thinking about how suspicious it is. And that happens to be exactly what I need to find out what's going on. I know, let's steal the bottle out of here. Ok!" The whole thing just seemed like it was too easy for Mordin.

So Mordin's an antagonist, eh? In that case, have him plotting to steal the bag, having previously noticed the connection. It makes him seem more competent, and it is a little less convenient.

I found it interesting that Mordin steals the bottle, and the first thing that occurs to him is that the princess is a drunk.  He was just being really suspicious of her, so why wouldn't he think the bottle was something more sinister. I actually at first thought it was like a love potion, or something along those lines. Shortly after that, I was thinking poison.

If Mordin thinks the bottle is common alcohol, why does he steal it? Is he just so cheap that he can't afford his own drink? He has to steal the princess's....

"Is that Raven? When did she get so big?" This line causes all sorts of problems. As Chaos mentioned, I thought at first that Raven was Jade's daughter. It also immediately establishes Raven as being considerably younger than Mordin, even more than the four or five year difference that (we think) we have there. After all, a 10 year old doesn't usually look at a 6 year old and go "She's so little!" Then a few years later wonder when they got so big. Children and teens don't typically comment on things like that, since they're growing also. It's a distinctly adult line, that makes Mordin seem older than 17 or 18. I'm 17. I would never say that about someone who was 13. I have said it about people who were 2 when they moved away, and 6 when I saw them again. But that's a major difference in age, and I didn't see them in between. From what I gather, Mordin is making regular visits down to Jade's, which means he would be very familiar with her and Raven, not this sort of 'first time I've seen you in forever' reaction.

Does Mordin actually believe the people at the temples when they say that theirs is the only safe magic? Because if so, he should mention that theirs is the only safe magic, not that they say theirs is the only safe magic. If he doubts it, as this phrasing makes it seem, then he shouldn't be so quick to agree with Jade that the traveler's tales don't matter. For that matter, why is he so quick to agree? It seems a little naive to just assume that your magic-users are right about everything, and the travelers tales count for nothing. Unless this is a culture where the magic-users are right about everything, or everyone thinks they are. In that case, you should bring this up before hand.

Why does Mordin suddenly just decide to pull out the bottle? Does he not like whatever Jade gave him? Is he curious about Cillia's taste in liquor? Did he just barely remember it? No matter what the motivations, they aren't stated, or even hinted at. The bottle just kind of randomly appears again. Never mind, I just read the line where it says, "Jade hadn't left anything, so...." Yeah, disregard that entire last paragraph there.

The prince seems to feel at ease with the Djinni awfully quickly. Like two seconds ago he was cowering in terror, then he's calmly conversing with it, then he's setting it free. He never thinks even once to question the Djinn. Also, you have a line, "The djinn didn't say anything, but it's smile was all the confirmation Mordin needed." How, exactly, does one with a gaping hole for a mouth smile? Furthermore, why is the djinn smiling about that? Did he do something unpleasant to his previous master that he's remembering? Did he love cillia very much, and smiles to remember her? I realize that this isn't really important, but I sat there for like 10 minutes going, "Why exactly is the djinn smiling?"

Mordin initially wishes for Cillia's enchantment to be lifted and the Djinn to leave forever. Why doesn't this count as a wish? I was surprised when the Djinn didn't just say, "As you wish" and poof, everything is back to normal.

When you say corporal form, do you mean corporeal? That's what I thought you were trying to say, but I wasn't really sure. If you really do mean corporal, you might consider capitalizing it and telling us what the heck that means. Otherwise, I sit here going, "what does a rank in the army have to do with a genie?"

You describe the djinn's attempt to look innocent. Then you go back to Mordin just instantly trusting it. Half the time he seems to doubt, half he seems to trust. He needs to be more consistent, or we need to see the internal struggle if he actually is feeling conflicted. Either one would work.

Why does Raven agree to spy on the Bearers? Is it because she actually has feelings for Mordin? She seems to change her mind about whether or not to go to the temple awfully fast.

The whole thing with the kiss. I don't have as much of an issue with the fact that she's thirteen as I do with the fact that the entire thing was just like, "Wait, what?" It wasn't really foreshadowed at all. In all the previous dialog, they seem to be fairly distant, and then all of a sudden, Raven says something mildly suggestive (which is apparently fairly common for her) and they're like, "Hey, let's make out!"

I would also expect Mordin to have some issues with kissing Jade's sister, since the relationship between Mordin and Jade is developed more strongly in the first chapter. Even if they don't like each other that way, they at least are good friends, and Mordin's got to be thinking about how she's going to react to him kissing her sister.

Overall, I really enjoyed the piece. It seemed like something I'd like to keep reading. But it did have its own issues.
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Re: Nov. 9 - Frog - DR - Chp 1&6 Rewrite
« Reply #13 on: November 14, 2009, 02:05:58 AM »
You gave us the first Mordin scene somewhere else, didn't you?  I recall reading it before...

Anyway, the first chapter is great in terms of adequately foreshadowing, yet still leaving suspense.  Chapter 6, on the other hand, ruins that advantage.  To me (and I fully admit that I am not longer a 'young' adult), it's blatantly obvious what happened- particularly with the thoughts he thinks.  They're too different, and I think a lot of readers would pick up on that.

So, it's up to you.  Do you want to keep the suspense, or give the game away early?  There's advantages to both.
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Re: Nov. 9 - Frog - DR - Chp 1&6 Rewrite
« Reply #14 on: December 17, 2009, 01:17:04 AM »
Mordin's remark that Jade should send Raven to the Temples seemed to come out of nowhere, especially as it sounds like the Temples are both difficult to get into and somewhat far away. Jade seems to take this completely in stride, though, as if it's not unusual at all. If this is a discussion they've had before, or Mordin's overheard Jade talking about it with Raven, or heard about it from Raven herself, then a hint about this in the text would be helpful.

Raven herself also appears in the conversation out of nowhere. The one time you actually mentioned her as being in the room, she was off elsewhere talking to somebody. Again, an indication of her listening in, or coming over to them, or something similar would be helpful.

Chapter Six: I was thrown off at first when you introduced Raven as "a younger girl", then I realized that he didn't recognize her. Again, a small thing, but I think it might be useful to acknowledge that he doesn't recognize her all that well, so the reader isn't wondering why he didn't.

Of course, I just read Chatper 1 and 6 back to back, and I've also read your previous version in which, if I'm not mistaken, they knew each other rather better. So that could just an error on my part.

Still, though, I'm a bit confused about one thing: Jade talks about Raven falling in with a bad lot, and Mordin says something about how he's insinuated himself into "a bad" crowd. I'm not sure if these are the SAME bad crowd (they were in the first version, I believe) but if they are, again, shouldn't Mordin know Raven at least well enough to recognize her on sight?

Raven does seem a little older than thirteen, and for some reason I thought that Mordin was her own age. Then again, in lots of historical settings women tended to marry much, MUCH younger than they do now, so while it sometimes seems like a bit of a surprise to readers I don't know that it's inaccurate.

Regarding what Cynic said: I actually don't think you need to have them flirt more--at least not on Moridin's side. This is an entirely calculated gesture on his part and has nothing to do with attraction at all. (Which is great characterization, but it makes him a little less smypathetic. I honestly don't think that's a problem, but I might as well throw it out there.)

It might be a little more called for on Raven's part, since the kiss was basically his answer to "what's in it for me". Then again, in this second scene she's busy sulking at him for "ruining her life" and probably not in the mood for flirting.

At the least, though, some indication from Mordin about WHY he thought that this would be an acceptable, ahem, answer for her might be helpful. I know she appears to have enjoyed herself after the fact, but why'd he choose to that route in the first place? Does he think she's flirting with him (whether she is or not), perhaps? Is he just used to women ogling him? Or is this an "I'm the prince, of course you want me" deal? For that matter, does Raven actually know who Mordin is? Because that... could explain a fair bit.

Actually--and this could probably come later, once you get into Raven's POV scenes--but it might do to throw in an explanation of why Raven found Mordin so, ahem, convincing. Since she appears to have no shortage of admirers, it seems a little bit unlikely that OMG A GUY KISSED ME AND SWEPT ME OF MY FEETZ.

...

Sorry. I'll stop trying to be funny now.

Let's see. Regarding the underage drinking: I'm guessing Frog's world doesn't have drinking age laws, and as far as I know--though please keep in mind that I'm far from an expert on the YA genre--YA tends not to care too much about the kinds of content you use (ei underage drinking). I think that the tight lid on content is more of a middle-grade thing.

I didn't find Mordin's character particularly unrealistic. He's just not the nicest guy in the world. And I didn't get the "something bad happened to him long ago" vibe either. Or the suggestion that Cilla was a previous love interest (though again, I had read the previous version of this chapter and already knew the story there).

I do agree that Mordin grabbing the bag was just a little easy. And he did free the djinni rather quickly. I think you could fix the latter fairly easily though, probably just by giving us a little more introspection on Mordin's part. He's not happy about this situation with Cilla. He's really, really, really not happy. Emotions can make you do dumb things, so if he's so focused on making things right that he takes the djinni's promise (such as it was) at face value, fine.

He does seem a little wishy on whether or not he actually trusts the thing.

I didn't mind that his first thought was that Cilla was a drunk. I have to admit that Andrew has a point (though not one that occured to me at the time): Since he thinks that it's booze, the fact that Mordin decides to steal it--and then have a swig of god-knows-what's-in-there while at freaking bar--is kinda weird.

I'm not going to comment on the "foreshadowing/suspense" thing since it's been so long since I've read the rest of this that I've kind of lost sight of the big picture, and I honestly don't think I can be useful there. Sorry about that. Hopfeully this is still helpful, though.