Author Topic: The Gathering Storm - First Impressions *SPOILERS*  (Read 55563 times)

Comfortable Madness

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Re: The Gathering Storm - First Impressions *SPOILERS*
« Reply #210 on: December 03, 2009, 11:42:16 PM »
Most darkfriends are really in it for themselves, expecting the Dark One to reward them for their service, rather than wanting to free the Dark One for its own sake.  Most of them have not realized that if the DO actually wins they will be collateral damage in the destruction of the entire world.  Thus, the DO may want balefire used without restraint but most of his followers would not be willing to use it to the required extent.  If he pushes for it he might get a mass darkfriend revolt instead, and he's smart enough to realize this.  Ishamael would go along with balefiring the Pattern to tatters, but he's just one person.  He might be able to pull it off with the Choedan Kal, but with anything short of that he'd face a universal mutiny before reaching the point of no return.

The DO may or may not want the world torn apart by excessive balefire use.  I don't think there is enough evidence to decide this either way yet.

I'm going to have to respectfully disagree with you on this one. Some of the most powerful people ever, the Forsaken, do whatever he tells them. If he told them to balefire the world into oblivion they most definately would obey. As would any Forsaken underlings. The DO rules out of fear as do the Forsaken over their cronies. If anyone disobeys they are simply killed off. That goes all the way down the chain of command on the side of the shadow. I don't see any type of revolt taking place. Furthermore, the Darkfriends that matter in this discussion are Aes Sedai Black Ajah and any rogue Ashaman that have crossed over. All of the Black Ajah are fully aware of what the DO represents. It's not just some shmuck darkfriends that would come into play in this theory only the channelers.

So, I still believe that if the DO intended the world be ended by excessive balefire use then that would have, at the very least, already have been attempted.
“I will never serve you, Father of Lies. In a thousand lives, I never have. I know that. I’m sure of it. Come. It is time to die.” Rand al'Thor

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Bookstore Guy

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Re: The Gathering Storm - First Impressions *SPOILERS*
« Reply #211 on: December 03, 2009, 11:48:28 PM »
So, I still believe that if the DO intended the world be ended by excessive balefire use then that would have, at the very least, already have been attempted.

I agree with this observation.  It seems like I remember reading in one of the PoVs of the Forsaken that they weren't too keen on balefire being used.  I could be totally off base, but it seems like I remember that from my audio book "read" through.  If the DO wanted balefire to nuke stuff, the Forsaken would be using it a lot more than they currently are.
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Re: The Gathering Storm - First Impressions *SPOILERS*
« Reply #212 on: December 03, 2009, 11:49:41 PM »
Most darkfriends are really in it for themselves, expecting the Dark One to reward them for their service, rather than wanting to free the Dark One for its own sake.  Most of them have not realized that if the DO actually wins they will be collateral damage in the destruction of the entire world.  Thus, the DO may want balefire used without restraint but most of his followers would not be willing to use it to the required extent.  If he pushes for it he might get a mass darkfriend revolt instead, and he's smart enough to realize this.  Ishamael would go along with balefiring the Pattern to tatters, but he's just one person.  He might be able to pull it off with the Choedan Kal, but with anything short of that he'd face a universal mutiny before reaching the point of no return.

The DO may or may not want the world torn apart by excessive balefire use.  I don't think there is enough evidence to decide this either way yet.

I'm going to have to respectfully disagree with you on this one. Some of the most powerful people ever, the Forsaken, do whatever he tells them. If he told them to balefire the world into oblivion they most definately would obey. As would any Forsaken underlings. The DO rules out of fear as do the Forsaken over their cronies. If anyone disobeys they are simply killed off. That goes all the way down the chain of command on the side of the shadow. I don't see any type of revolt taking place. Furthermore, the Darkfriends that matter in this discussion are Aes Sedai Black Ajah and any rogue Ashaman that have crossed over. All of the Black Ajah are fully aware of what the DO represents. It's not just some shmuck darkfriends that would come into play in this theory only the channelers.

So, I still believe that if the DO intended the world be ended by excessive balefire use then that would have, at the very least, already have been attempted.

Yeah, i'm pretty sure if the DO told the forsaken "Balefire your butts off or die" it would happen....
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Bookstore Guy

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Re: The Gathering Storm - First Impressions *SPOILERS*
« Reply #213 on: December 04, 2009, 12:11:55 AM »
Yeah, i'm pretty sure if the DO told the forsaken "Balefire your butts off or die" it would happen....

This image made me giggle a bit.
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douglas

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Re: The Gathering Storm - First Impressions *SPOILERS*
« Reply #214 on: December 04, 2009, 02:21:09 AM »
Even the Forsaken (excepting Ishamael) are in it for the immortality and power.  Their background information and POV scenes make it quite clear that they expect the DO to drastically change the world and make them the top rulers of the new world.  They do not expect him to literally destroy the world, them included.  There are also a number of Black Ajah POV scenes that clearly reveal the motives of one or more BA members to be a desire for personal power and advantage.  Again, they expect to be rewarded for their service.  I do not recall any evidence anywhere in the entire series of a servant of the Dark One other than Ishamael believing that the DO will kill that person as collateral damage in the event of his victory, that the DO won't care about this and will not resurrect that person, that this might happen within that person's lifetime, and that this is ok.

Just for one example off the top of my head, read what Moghedian thinks when she's brought out of the vacuole.  She's panicked that the DO might have already won and she'd be forced to work up from the bottom in a world where the other Forsaken already rule everything.  If she thought the DO's victory would mean the actual end of the world, as excessive balefire might cause, such a worry would never have arisen.
« Last Edit: December 04, 2009, 02:24:25 AM by douglas »

Shard

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Re: The Gathering Storm - First Impressions *SPOILERS*
« Reply #215 on: December 04, 2009, 03:03:10 AM »
Well Lanfear has already spoke treasons words against the DO so I am not wholly certain that some of them might be upset that they will blink out of existence should the DO win. I think some of them REALLY believe that they will live in a world they get to rule under the DO. They seem to think that the world will be one giant Morador for them to parcel up.
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Re: The Gathering Storm - First Impressions *SPOILERS*
« Reply #216 on: December 04, 2009, 03:15:57 PM »
We also have been told that the Dark One wants to destroy the Wheel and rebuild it to suit his desires.  I feel that if the Wheel is destroyed, the Pattern has to go along with it.  The Wheel weaves the Pattern, after all.  No Pattern = no world.  I think the Dark One is wanting to hit the Cosmic Reset Button, thus the lives of his followers in the current incarnation of Existence is trivial.  And I think the only person that has stopped to think about it all the way or been told the intention is Moridin.  It's what he's been saying all along, that everyone is just a pawn to the Dark One, and he is Nae'blis, after all.  I'd figure he'd have a bit more insight into it all.
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happyman

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Re: The Gathering Storm - First Impressions *SPOILERS*
« Reply #217 on: December 05, 2009, 05:29:43 AM »
Most darkfriends are really in it for themselves, expecting the Dark One to reward them for their service, rather than wanting to free the Dark One for its own sake.  Most of them have not realized that if the DO actually wins they will be collateral damage in the destruction of the entire world.  Thus, the DO may want balefire used without restraint but most of his followers would not be willing to use it to the required extent.  If he pushes for it he might get a mass darkfriend revolt instead, and he's smart enough to realize this.  Ishamael would go along with balefiring the Pattern to tatters, but he's just one person.  He might be able to pull it off with the Choedan Kal, but with anything short of that he'd face a universal mutiny before reaching the point of no return.

The DO may or may not want the world torn apart by excessive balefire use.  I don't think there is enough evidence to decide this either way yet.

I'm going to have to respectfully disagree with you on this one. Some of the most powerful people ever, the Forsaken, do whatever he tells them. If he told them to balefire the world into oblivion they most definately would obey. As would any Forsaken underlings. The DO rules out of fear as do the Forsaken over their cronies. If anyone disobeys they are simply killed off. That goes all the way down the chain of command on the side of the shadow. I don't see any type of revolt taking place. Furthermore, the Darkfriends that matter in this discussion are Aes Sedai Black Ajah and any rogue Ashaman that have crossed over. All of the Black Ajah are fully aware of what the DO represents. It's not just some shmuck darkfriends that would come into play in this theory only the channelers.

So, I still believe that if the DO intended the world be ended by excessive balefire use then that would have, at the very least, already have been attempted.

A lot of other people have answered this, but I would like to address this carefully and with full context.

Firstly, the Forsaken do *not* do whatever the DO tells them to do if they think they can get away with not doing it.  Think of Lanfear.  She fully intended to rebel against both the Creator and the DO, given the chance.  The other forsaken aren't quite crazy enough to think that that's possible, but Mesaana, for instance, thought she could ignore the call to fight at Shadar Logoth.  She got punished for it, but please note that she didn't do it.  The obedience of the forsaken is not absolute.

Secondly, the Dark One does not rule strictly out of fear.  As others have noted, he also rules out of greed and desire for petty revenge.  Carrot and stick.  Selfishness, in fact, is one of the prime motivators behind most of the Forsaken, as noted by Verin.  Even in tGS, we have Moridin promising Graendel a high position of authority, and it works.  There are too many other examples to count.  I would say that, on balance however, that most people who serve the DO have greed for motivations.  Lots of people fear the DO, and with good reason.  Active service seems to come mostly from greed.

I would also note that disobedience is not strictly rewarded by death.  That is false, period.  Mesaana, Moghedien, and Lanfear are all examples of that.

Given these reasons, it seems perfectly logical that the DO is simply lying to the Forsaken, leading them on with promises of power and glory, until he can destroy the world entirely.  Ishamael practically says as much to Rand, in fact, in their little meeting.  The fact that the DO has not commanded the Forsaken to use Balefire may simply be because that would tip his hand; because he is motivating his minions with greed, they will revolt---they really will---if they truly understand what is happening, Ishamael excepted.  I see no reason to doubt that.

Edit:  I would like to add that it seems logical that just anybody using Balefire may not be enough for the DO to get everything he wants.  It does seem logical that having Rand do it may be more devastating than, say, having Moridin go around balefiring everything.  Or that it wouldn't have all the desired effects.
« Last Edit: December 05, 2009, 04:03:09 PM by happyman »
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Wolfstar

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Re: The Gathering Storm - First Impressions *SPOILERS*
« Reply #218 on: December 05, 2009, 03:10:09 PM »
Again, Happy, I agree completely.
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mtbikemom

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Re: The Gathering Storm - First Impressions *SPOILERS*
« Reply #219 on: December 05, 2009, 09:40:25 PM »
Notice the grammar and spelling.  I think Happy got/gets A's more often than not.

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Re: The Gathering Storm - First Impressions *SPOILERS*
« Reply #220 on: December 07, 2009, 02:35:05 PM »
happy,

We will just have to agree to disagree on this point.

Quote
I would also note that disobedience is not strictly rewarded by death.  That is false, period.  Mesaana, Moghedien, and Lanfear are all examples of that.

Moghedien isn't being punished for disobedience but for failure. As for Mesaana, did that order come directly from the DO? Even if it did the punishment thereafter is so extreme that she won't be able to disobey ever again. Point being the DO rules with an iron fist. If the key to the DO's plan was to balefire the world into oblivion he would actively be forcing his minions to do just that! What would be the point of all of his scheming if just by shattering the world via balefire was the key to everything? Why manipulate the Dragon so much? Yah Rand is the strongest channeler around but Ishy/Rahvin/Demandred/Lanfear/etc... are pretty close to his strength. Are you suggesting the damage all of them combined wouldn't match what Rand could do alone? Their souls are bound to him. If he truly wanted them to shatter the pattern he would simply make them do it. Regardless if they didn't want to go along with it.
“I will never serve you, Father of Lies. In a thousand lives, I never have. I know that. I’m sure of it. Come. It is time to die.” Rand al'Thor

"Mourn if you must. But mourn on the march to Tarmon Gai'don." Logain Ablar

happyman

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Re: The Gathering Storm - First Impressions *SPOILERS*
« Reply #221 on: December 07, 2009, 04:00:58 PM »
happy,

We will just have to agree to disagree on this point.

Quote
I would also note that disobedience is not strictly rewarded by death.  That is false, period.  Mesaana, Moghedien, and Lanfear are all examples of that.

Moghedien isn't being punished for disobedience but for failure. As for Mesaana, did that order come directly from the DO? Even if it did the punishment thereafter is so extreme that she won't be able to disobey ever again. Point being the DO rules with an iron fist. If the key to the DO's plan was to balefire the world into oblivion he would actively be forcing his minions to do just that! What would be the point of all of his scheming if just by shattering the world via balefire was the key to everything? Why manipulate the Dragon so much? Yah Rand is the strongest channeler around but Ishy/Rahvin/Demandred/Lanfear/etc... are pretty close to his strength. Are you suggesting the damage all of them combined wouldn't match what Rand could do alone? Their souls are bound to him. If he truly wanted them to shatter the pattern he would simply make them do it. Regardless if they didn't want to go along with it.

No need to absolutely agree to disagree.  Those are good points, and I'm glad you've made them.  I now think that just balefire probably isn't enough to get the DO what he wants.  I do think that Rand is special in that regard.  Being an absurdly strong Ta'veren may be enough.  He's the Dragon Reborn and one with the land.  His actions and emotions get magnified to an absurd degree because of that.

I do think the DO just wants to destroy everything.  You've just convinced me that random spouts of balefire from Moridin won't do it.  Perhaps the destruction wouldn't be complete enough for the DO's taste?  Perhaps enough would survive that the pattern would eventually rebuild itself?  It's a mystery.  I do suspect that a general order from the DO to balefire everything wouldn't be obeyed by most darkfriends or forsaken.  Because they are mostly motivated by personal greed, I suspect they would sacrifice their current life in the hope of getting any kind of afterlife at all rather than face oblivion once they realized that that was the actual choice being offered them...

Incidentally, Mesaana's punishment was proclaimed by Shadar Hairan.  As far as I can tell, that means the DO backs it up 100%.
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Shard

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Re: The Gathering Storm - First Impressions *SPOILERS*
« Reply #222 on: December 07, 2009, 04:29:54 PM »
Maybe what the DO wants is for Rand to be using Balefire then. Afterall Rand just did burn a huge hole in the pattern by destroying the castle in tGS.
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Re: The Gathering Storm - First Impressions *SPOILERS*
« Reply #223 on: December 08, 2009, 03:17:45 PM »
I seem to remember Lews Therin mumbling in Rands head something like, "I promised never to do that again (use balefire)".  I assumed that LT had already tried balefiring the Forsaken and it didn't work, or at least not the way he had meant it to work.
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happyman

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Re: The Gathering Storm - First Impressions *SPOILERS*
« Reply #224 on: December 08, 2009, 03:26:23 PM »
I seem to remember Lews Therin mumbling in Rands head something like, "I promised never to do that again (use balefire)".  I assumed that LT had already tried balefiring the Forsaken and it didn't work, or at least not the way he had meant it to work.

This gets into the thorny issue of whether Lews Therin's thoughts are really Lews Therin's, or Rand's thoughts that he can't bring himself to face.  Because I tend towards the second option (Rand and Lews Therin are the same person at core), I think Rand's promise not to use balefire may be relevant.
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