Author Topic: The Gathering Storm - First Impressions *SPOILERS*  (Read 20454 times)

Bookstore Guy

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Re: The Gathering Storm - First Impressions *SPOILERS*
« Reply #150 on: November 24, 2009, 11:08:26 PM »
Yeah...the cover art just never gets better.  Every time I see it I feel a little ill.  My UK cover is beautiful, but the binding is SOOO bad.  Think about this folks, if I--a person who is less than enthusiastic about the WoT--am pissed off and feel cheated by the binding on the UK edition of TGS, imagine how big-time fans feel.  I feel a certain measure of outrage on their (the fans) behalf.  It just didn't do good service to the faithful of this series.

mtbikemom--your last point interests me more than anything WoT related at this point.  Im gonna talk to Brandon once this madness is finished and see if he'll expound on that for me.
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Shard

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Re: The Gathering Storm - First Impressions *SPOILERS*
« Reply #151 on: November 25, 2009, 01:46:29 AM »
People have been debating that Verin was BA for years now, where you've been Bookstore guy? There was a line somewhere in the books about her making a "mistake 70 years ago" and that she wasn't going to let it go to waste or something like that. So yes I think there is back up for Verin being a double agent, ever since she said those fateful words "Moriane Sent me, Lord Agelmar"
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gwoodhouse

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Re: The Gathering Storm - First Impressions *SPOILERS*
« Reply #152 on: November 25, 2009, 11:17:00 AM »
Excellent Excellent Book.

RJ's usual style was to fill out all of his books with useless description and make the read as long as protracted as possible, pretty sure that was to sell more books rather than for any other reason - but saying that the story line behind that was great and if you learned to skip paragraphs filled with useless description you could get a pretty good read.

I've been a Sanderson fan for ages as his books are just immense. You start reading and at no point do you think "get on with it", its just good solid action/interest/plot right the way through, no filler.

With this book i think i could pick out bits that were RJ (or at least overly RJ inspired) by the way i found myself slowly falling asleep reading a redescription of saidain etc but they were few and far between and mostly in the first 3rd of the book. By the time i got a 3rd through i just couldn't stop - after a 5 hour into the early hours of the morning read I am now blown away by the sheer amount of plot/action covered in a WoT book. Its like someone finally brought the series to full speed!! Hurray!

(spoilers)
Rand finally goes properly mental then gets over it, Tuon finally gets made empress and gets on with it,  Black Ajah is revealed finally (Although being honest, that was plot inspired rather than it being dragged out), Choosen story starts moving and they stop being massive 2 dimensional wusses! Hurray! All in one book rather than spread over 4!!

So, yeah, Thanks Brandon! Your both awesome and way better than Jordan. Looking forward to the next two books, don't let Tor and Harriet bully you into splitting books again just to make them more money!!

Oh, and play red deck built around land destruction & direct damage. Always fun. Hope you can post the WoT inspired cards on your site sometime, would love to see them as a full version (careful of Wizards(OTC) getting smarmy about copyright). Love you! :D

Bookstore Guy

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Re: The Gathering Storm - First Impressions *SPOILERS*
« Reply #153 on: November 25, 2009, 05:28:38 PM »
People have been debating that Verin was BA for years now, where you've been Bookstore guy? There was a line somewhere in the books about her making a "mistake 70 years ago" and that she wasn't going to let it go to waste or something like that. So yes I think there is back up for Verin being a double agent, ever since she said those fateful words "Moriane Sent me, Lord Agelmar"

Once again, I'm not arguing that there was nothing saying she wasn't BA.  I'm pretty sure I've said that isn't my issue several times.  I'm saying that, in my opinion, the manner and timing of the reveal were beyond convenient, and it served to cheapen the 2nd part of the reveal--that she was really a good gal.  My last 4 posts have talked about timing and coincidence, not how surprised I was.  Her being BA wasn't really surprising (and if anyone missed the "Moraine sent me" part, they surely didn't miss Moraine telling Rand not to trust Verin).  It was more of a "Well crud, I was hoping for a cooler reveal. Oh well, at least now she can be evil...oh, never mind, now she's a double agent on her deathbed.  How perfectly convenient for Egwene."  The two "reveals" put that closely together don't add together and make each other stronger.  They make each other weaker.  As I said before, I personally feel this was poorly handled.

Summary:
1) I wasn't surprised by Verin being BA.  I wish she would have had a big powerful reveal earlier and been in danger from the main characters.
2) I was surprised that she was a double-agent, but being so close to the focal reveal to Egwene that she was BA weakened the double-agent reveal and made it less important than it should have been.
3) Hindsight is 20-20.  People can look back and say that one theory was perfect (even though there were dozen of theories that were simultaneously proven false).  We could have had a dozen final outcomes that fit the small bits and hints that were given.
4) The timing of the reveals were rushed and coincidental/overly convenient.  It is borderline Deus Ex Machina.
5) I suppose I shouldn't be surprised that Verin turned out to be good.  It helps further guarantee that the Light will win.  It's like the Aes Sedai said, "What does it matter, we are going to win anyway right?"
6) This didn't ruin the book for me.  While I'm not a fan of the series, this book was enjoyable overall (it wasn't TGH by any means, but still good).

I think we've beaten this dead horse enough.  Like I said, I don't expect any fan of the series to agree with me.
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Vatdoro

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Re: The Gathering Storm - First Impressions *SPOILERS*
« Reply #154 on: November 25, 2009, 06:26:35 PM »
I think we've beaten this dead horse enough.  Like I said, I don't expect any fan of the series to agree with me.

I'm a HUGE WoT fan, and I agree that the Verin reveal felt a little "too convenient and timely". Did that keep me from enjoying that part of the story or the whole book? No.

This isn't Brandon's story, but he's doing a fantastic job taking RJ's notes and finishing this story for him. I'd like to think the Verin reveal would have been done a little differently if RJ could have done it, or maybe Brandon did it better than RJ was planning, who knows?

I love the WoT and I think Brandon's doing a fabulous job finishing the story for all of us to enjoy.

Bookstore Guy

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Re: The Gathering Storm - First Impressions *SPOILERS*
« Reply #155 on: November 25, 2009, 06:28:42 PM »
I think we've beaten this dead horse enough.  Like I said, I don't expect any fan of the series to agree with me.

I'm a HUGE WoT fan, and I agree that the Verin reveal felt a little "too convenient and timely". Did that keep me from enjoying that part of the story or the whole book? No.

This isn't Brandon's story, but he's doing a fantastic job taking RJ's notes and finishing this story for him. I'd like to think the Verin reveal would have been done a little differently if RJ could have done it, or maybe Brandon did it better than RJ was planning, who knows?

I love the WoT and I think Brandon's doing a fabulous job finishing the story for all of us to enjoy.

well said.
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darxbane

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Re: The Gathering Storm - First Impressions *SPOILERS*
« Reply #156 on: November 25, 2009, 07:47:16 PM »
Quote
RJ's usual style was to fill out all of his books with useless description and make the read as long as protracted as possible, pretty sure that was to sell more books rather than for any other reason - but saying that the story line behind that was great and if you learned to skip paragraphs filled with useless description you could get a pretty good read.

Really?  You honestly think RJ and Tor couldn't have made as much, if not more, money by closing this series and writing outriggers?  Even a whole new series would have made huge money, just because the author of the WoT wrote them.  No, if anything this extended series has had a negative affect on revenue (just look at the number of people who stopped reading the series after book 5).  No, this wasn't about money, it was about an author who loved the story so much that he just had to tell us everything.

Quote
I've been a Sanderson fan for ages as his books are just immense. You start reading and at no point do you think "get on with it", its just good solid action/interest/plot right the way through, no filler.

Ages, huh?  His first novel was published 6 years ago.  Now, while I have become a huge BWS fan, and have read all his books, I find myself wanting more information about the worlds he creates.  I understand why he was writing small, but I am looking forward to his first Epic, and writing Wot will no doubt only make him better.


The Verin debate: I wonder if we aren't putting more stock into her reveal than we should?  Sure, it was incredibly heroic, but since the BA hunters already had a start, Verin's details simply catalyzed the process.  One argument I can certainly understand is that it pretty much destroyed the BA hunter plotline.  All those pages of scheming and meeting in the shadows for nothing.  Thinking about it a minute, it also shows that oaths, even taken on the oath rod, mean nothing if the person doesn't truly feel that way.  Verin was never really Black Ajah, no matter what oaths she swore.  This should further the argument that the 3 Oaths are nothing but an initiation rite for a group that is still way too self-righteous for its own good.
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Bookstore Guy

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Re: The Gathering Storm - First Impressions *SPOILERS*
« Reply #157 on: November 25, 2009, 09:19:08 PM »
Quote
RJ's usual style was to fill out all of his books with useless description and make the read as long as protracted as possible, pretty sure that was to sell more books rather than for any other reason - but saying that the story line behind that was great and if you learned to skip paragraphs filled with useless description you could get a pretty good read.

Really?  You honestly think RJ and Tor couldn't have made as much, if not more, money by closing this series and writing outriggers?  Even a whole new series would have made huge money, just because the author of the WoT wrote them.  No, if anything this extended series has had a negative affect on revenue (just look at the number of people who stopped reading the series after book 5).  No, this wasn't about money, it was about an author who loved the story so much that he just had to tell us everything.

Quote
I've been a Sanderson fan for ages as his books are just immense. You start reading and at no point do you think "get on with it", its just good solid action/interest/plot right the way through, no filler.

Ages, huh?  His first novel was published 6 years ago.  Now, while I have become a huge BWS fan, and have read all his books, I find myself wanting more information about the worlds he creates.  I understand why he was writing small, but I am looking forward to his first Epic, and writing Wot will no doubt only make him better.


The Verin debate: I wonder if we aren't putting more stock into her reveal than we should?  Sure, it was incredibly heroic, but since the BA hunters already had a start, Verin's details simply catalyzed the process.  One argument I can certainly understand is that it pretty much destroyed the BA hunter plotline.  All those pages of scheming and meeting in the shadows for nothing.  Thinking about it a minute, it also shows that oaths, even taken on the oath rod, mean nothing if the person doesn't truly feel that way.  Verin was never really Black Ajah, no matter what oaths she swore.  This should further the argument that the 3 Oaths are nothing but an initiation rite for a group that is still way too self-righteous for its own good.

I also feel that Jordan's endless pages of description had nothing to do with money.  I think he just couldn't stop writing--a lot like Stephen King's novels just keep going endlessly.  I don't know that the continual lengthening of the series has hurt it TOO bad.  I do think that a tad more money would have been made had the series been shorter, followed by outrigger novels, but oh well.

As for the effect of WoT on Brandon, it had a very obvious influence (in my opinion) on Way of Kings.  In a good way.

I saw that too with the BA Hunter story line, as it just kind of ended and made all the pages of debate moot.  There were several areas of TGS where I felt the plot threads were delicately pulled on track, and others were yanked to get them going again.  Verin's was a yanked one (in my opinion).
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happyman

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Re: The Gathering Storm - First Impressions *SPOILERS*
« Reply #158 on: November 25, 2009, 09:40:56 PM »
I, for one, was finally relived to have a character who wasn't stupid, but actually as competent as they should be.  As others have said, it was nice to finally have someone rat out the DO.  Convenient?  I suppose so.  Verin meant it to be effective, after all.

And that's my prime objection to Bookstore Guys objection.  It would need plot induced stupidity to make it plausible.  Haven't we had enough of that already?
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Bookstore Guy

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Re: The Gathering Storm - First Impressions *SPOILERS*
« Reply #159 on: November 25, 2009, 10:00:05 PM »
No one needed to rat out the DO.  They are doing a poor enough job without a double-agent undermining them.  Watching the bad guys conspire makes me feel like im taking crazy pills. 

How does my objection to the manner of the reveal mean that it would need plot stupidity to have been different?  Having info become available to the main characters outing Verin as BA earlier, thus putting her in more danger from the heroes while the forces of evil get suspicious of her info gathering and put her in danger from them.  This is the life of a true double-agent--the constant danger and paranoia.  Then, not only would the reveal of her double-agent-ness been stronger for the heroes, but it would have made her character more epic.

but hey, it's over and done with, so this debate is actually pretty pointless.  the only thing that matter about Verin now is the note she left Mat.  If it has info on the Tower of Ghenji, I will scream "convenience/coincidence" again, not to mention B.S. (not Brandon Sanderson, the other B.S. acronym).
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Patriotic Kaz

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Re: The Gathering Storm - First Impressions *SPOILERS*
« Reply #160 on: November 25, 2009, 10:50:19 PM »
you know this site will censor you, steve, you just say shirt instead of sh**
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douglas

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Re: The Gathering Storm - First Impressions *SPOILERS*
« Reply #161 on: November 25, 2009, 10:52:08 PM »
If it has info on the Tower of Ghenji, I will scream "convenience/coincidence" again, not to mention B.S. (not Brandon Sanderson, the other B.S. acronym).
Yeah, that would be way too implausible.  There hasn't been even the slightest hint that Verin knew anything at all about Moiraine and the ToG.  Moiraine's letter to Thom is the only thing in the entire series that ever said anything about that connection, and Verin just randomly popping out with it would require some pretty incredible explanation to make any sense.

I'm guessing it's something about the Horn of Valere.  She knows Mat blew it, she knows he needs to find it again so he can blow it for the Last Battle, and I'm pretty sure she knows where it is.  Making sure the Hornsounder can get his Horn seems like the kind of thing she'd do as part of a long planned betrayal of the Dark One.

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Re: The Gathering Storm - First Impressions *SPOILERS*
« Reply #162 on: November 25, 2009, 11:06:11 PM »
Yeah, I imagine you are right about the Horn.  Mat's just gonna get tied to the Horn anyway, so he may as well get cozy with the current residents.
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Patriotic Kaz

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Re: The Gathering Storm - First Impressions *SPOILERS*
« Reply #163 on: November 26, 2009, 05:29:44 AM »
I think Mat is too strong of Taavern (or whatchamaspellit) to be tied to the horn
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Wolfstar

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Re: The Gathering Storm - First Impressions *SPOILERS*
« Reply #164 on: November 26, 2009, 06:50:56 AM »
Summary:
1) I wasn't surprised by Verin being BA.  I wish she would have had a big powerful reveal earlier and been in danger from the main characters.
2) I was surprised that she was a double-agent, but being so close to the focal reveal to Egwene that she was BA weakened the double-agent reveal and made it less important than it should have been.
3) Hindsight is 20-20.  People can look back and say that one theory was perfect (even though there were dozen of theories that were simultaneously proven false).  We could have had a dozen final outcomes that fit the small bits and hints that were given.
4) The timing of the reveals were rushed and coincidental/overly convenient.  It is borderline Deus Ex Machina.
5) I suppose I shouldn't be surprised that Verin turned out to be good.  It helps further guarantee that the Light will win.  It's like the Aes Sedai said, "What does it matter, we are going to win anyway right?"
6) This didn't ruin the book for me.  While I'm not a fan of the series, this book was enjoyable overall (it wasn't TGH by any means, but still good).

I think we've beaten this dead horse enough.  Like I said, I don't expect any fan of the series to agree with me.

I agree with you, that we got an overload of plot twists at that point.

I think if it had gone over more like Snape's series of reveals in Harry Potter, it would have been much better.  I mean, we got a few books of well-spaced build-up and revelation.
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