The Gathering Storm - First Impressions *SPOILERS*

[Publius]

Just finished the book a few days ago. I never realized how  slow a reader I am until I read that some people finished this book in one sitting. This was an awesome book start to finish including the Mat chapters that some people didn't care for. Besides the first Mat chapter, I didn't think BS did that bad of a job with Mat's POV.

I'm assuming that since this thread is marked *Spoilers* that Spoilers are OK...

OK, so I was wrong and Min didn't get killed, but I was close. Almost predicted that one correctly, but no corpse.

I couldn't wait to get to the part of the book that everyone was saying was so shocking that they had to set the book down for a while. I think the scene they were talking about was the one where Rand went after Graendal. This was a powerful scene, I actually went back and reread parts of it, but it wasn't so shocking that I had to set the book down. I actually agreed with Rands decision.  It was a hard decision, but one I believe to be a correct one.

There was a scene that made me set the book down though.  That was after Egwene was officially raised to Amyrlin.  No matter how I think about it its stupid to require the rebels to apologize to her.  What a slap in the face! To me it's the same as if Germany after WWII required all Germans who helped the Allied Forces to apologize for rebelling against Germany...  What would the Blue Ajah have to apologize for? Wouldn't Egwene owe them an apology? What about all the women who Egwene recruited as novices, why would they owe an apology? Then she picked a Red to be her assistant? How is that going to promote unity when she's thrown everyone who's supported her under the bus?

The way she treated Suian I thought was despicable. Egwene left the camp leaderless by her choice, and when the camp was faced with a difficult decision, what does she do? She reprimands the one person who grabbed the bull by the horns and took control of the situation. Did Suian make the right decision? Hard to say, but someone in the camp had to step forward and make a decision, and the fact that Egwene wouldn't stand by Suians side is kind of upsetting. I'm hoping that in ToM, that Egwene is faced with more problems of unity because I will find it disappointing and unrealistic (Yes, I know I'm talking about a fantasy series) if the Tower is all of a sudden a happy family.

The Chapter Veins of Gold was one of the best chapters in the series I think

I suppose it's easier to talk about things that bug me as opposed to the things I really enjoyed. Anyways did that sequence with Egwene bother anyone else?

[Wolfstar]

I suppose it's easier to talk about things that bug me as opposed to the things I really enjoyed. Anyways did that sequence with Egwene bother anyone else?

I didn't agree with some of her thought process, but she seemed in character.

[Patriotic Kaz]

I hate Egwene's attitude she is Aes Sedia high and mighty, "I'm more important than the Dragon and everyone else" to the core. Her arrogance is so damn absolute!!!! Though i found myself agreeing with most of her political decisions.

[Publius]

What is the White Tower though? Is it a set of beliefs and principles that have stood the test of time, or is it just a building? Egwene seems to be suggesting that it is just a building and you should never go against it. Egwene was raised by the Rebel Aes Sedai and the White Tower Aes Sedai, that's what I call a position of power. She should have then negotiated w/ the Red from that position.

Egwene instead without negotiations grabbed a political prisoner, one many in the Red will view as a traitor, and raised her to a high position.  I think many in the Red will see this as weakness on Egwenes part. The Blue Ajah would just have to be so....upset. They had to apologize because they were unlawfully kicked out. I'm really hoping that there is more fracture and disunity in the next book.

I can suspend disbelief for many things, but I can't suspend disbelief when it comes to people. People don't change. Laws change. Beliefs change. Technology changes. Names change. Nationality changes. People however don't, which is why everyone has heard the phrase history repeats itself.  It repeats itself because we are emotional creatures, and our first response is always an emotional one. It's why people can relate to scriptures and stories written thousands of years ago.

Here's an example of what I mean:

Homeless guy standing on the side of the road by a stop light w/ sign saying: Please help feed my family. God Bless You.   There's also a couple pics of his kids on the sign.  Which is your response?

     A) Roll up your window, Lock the doors. Don't make eye contact until the light turns green
     B) Roll down your window and give the poor guy some money, so the poor guy can feed his family
     C) Roll down your window and yell, "You got a family and this is the best you can do! Get a job, Loser!!!
     D) None of the Above. You have too much time on your hands, and don't know what your talking about...

Sorry, I got side tracked a little bit. Point being, I'm not going to buy the happy unbroken Tower scenario if thats whats going to happen.  If anything I think she may have more problems with disunity than before.

[douglas]

She should have then negotiated w/ the Red from that position.

That would imply that the Reds were separate from the rest of the Tower and had their own authority.  Not at all an idea Egwene would want to suggest.

Egwene instead without negotiations grabbed a political prisoner,

Specifically a prisoner of Elaida, imprisoned for standing up to her.

one many in the Red will view as a traitor,

Traitor?  Why?  The Red Ajah is in disgrace, so much so that the other Ajah heads did not include them in their plans and no Red Sitters were present for Egwene's raising.  They are in disgrace specifically because of Elaida and what she did as Amyrlin.  Silviana is a Red who stood up to Elaida and spoke out against her.  Considering how thoroughly Elaida messed up as Amyrlin, that is exactly the kind of person the Reds would want representing them in the public eye - someone they can point to and say "see, we rejected Elaida too!"

and raised her to a high position.  I think many in the Red will see this as weakness on Egwenes part.

Weakness?  In her?  Every Aes Sedai in both the Tower and Rebel camps has had abundant evidence that Egwene is anything but weak.  Her raising of Silviana to Keeper was explicitly stated as a gesture of reconciliation and unity, implying that she would not view the Reds as a separate and disgraced entity from the rest of the Tower despite their recent history.  Egwene could have disbanded the Red Ajah entirely, just like Elaida did the Blue, and she probably would have gotten away with it.  All the Reds know this.  Relief and gratitude that she didn't and that they're not in disgrace any more is likely to overwhelm all other reactions.

The Blue Ajah would just have to be so....upset. They had to apologize because they were unlawfully kicked out.

I saw that as more of a formal gesture to say "we're not the victorious conquering side, we're part of the united White Tower."  It was not an apology for opposing Elaida or for getting kicked out, it was an apology for breaking the Tower.  Regardless of what Elaida did, there were ways to react to it that would not have publicly split the Tower, and Egwene is just driving home that the split is over and she will not favor either side over the other.

I'm really hoping that there is more fracture and disunity in the next book.

I can suspend disbelief for many things, but I can't suspend disbelief when it comes to people. People don't change.

People and their behavior don't change, no, but they are also very complicated, and I think you're missing some important factors that would affect them this time.

[Aranfan]

Douglas answers most of your complaints to my satisfaction above.  But I want to elaborate on the apology.


Egwene didn't have the Rebel Aes Sedai apologize for being kicked out.  She had them apologize for raising an Army and laying Siege to Tar Valon. 

[tipbruley]

Egwene didn't have the Rebel Aes Sedai apologize for being kicked out.  She had them apologize for raising an Army and laying Siege to Tar Valon. 

Well my main problem with that, is that it was HER idea to formally go to war with the tower. That was how she got her real power as (rebel)Amyrlin seat in the first place! The other rebels reluctantly agreed (in fact were tricked) into the vote.

We see things from her perspective, which gives us insight. But what if you were a Rebel Sitter. You knew that the formal declaration of war was her idea, and it was her in charge of keeping it up. But after you help her reclaim the White Tower, she demands that you apologize to her for besieging the White Tower....Most people would be pissed if they were in that situation.

Instead of an apology she should have acted like there was never a rift (think prodigal son). Think about it this way. If your family had a huge falling out because your brother was verbally abusing your wife, and you stopped talking to him because of it. Everyone in the family had to take sides and there was a huge rift, and your sister sided with you and told you shouldn't see him or the side of the family that sided with him until he changed. If your brother took some therapy and stopped the verbal abuse, how would you feel if your sister demanded for you to apologize to the other side of the family when you all were reunited once more? I know what my answer would be.

While all of this is anti-Egwene I think its important to note that I think her decisions were 100% in character. These are the same types of problems people have been having with Egwene since day one

[Patriotic Kaz]

We did look at it as a rebel but then we looked at it as a loyalist and we understood why it NEEDED to be done less the political fractures NEVER be repaired.


Edit: on a different note Inquisitor asked Brandon if Min's viewing over Rand merging with someone else had been fufilled and the answer was RAFO... which we took to mean no. Due to the fact that LTT has gone bye bye, I think it is safe to say he will merge with Moridin.

Someone needs to ask him about the scene in which he puts his head on his hands....

[Batchman]

Personally, I think Egwene has done a wonderful job -within- the White Tower, and I agree with most of her actions and statements. I think almost every choice she has made for the White Tower as a whole has been a good and positive thing.

I think, suspect, and hope that she has ensured that she will have a tower that will have a hard time crossing her as an organization, because of how much they needed her, and what she has already provided. Yet I also think and hope that the situations leading to her being placed in power will mean that the tower will be a little more outspoken if they disagree with her. I'm hoping for more honest, and less hidden and scheming. Not that the AS will not always be scheming ....

My problems are all going to be in regards to the WT and the rest of the world. Here's hoping that she remembers that she, herself, made the point that ruling the AS was not supposed to be nothing more than might makes right.

[Squeakle]

Re: Egwene

She has become a leader, and basically her part in the book was demonstrating this. Part of being a leader is making unpleasant decisions that will have an overall healing effect. The rebel Aes Sedai NEEDED some humility so that they could accept the loyalists. Nevermind whether they are right, the Tower needs healing before Tarmon Gaidon (which all buildup seems to suggest is later this afternoon). If the rebels continue to shun the loyalists with the apparent backing of the Amyrlin, it would remain split.

Basically, I'm sure Egwene didn't want to rip out her supporters, but she NEEDED to. Keep in mind Egwene is the sort of sister to give herself penance (probably not that common).

My opinion: Brandon = good job on Egwene.

[Publius]

I think the fact that people disagree with me makes my point. If we as readers can't agree on this then the White Tower definitely isn't going to be happy. For the record, I'm not saying the writing is bad, or that Egwene is out of character, or anything like that, just that I hope she has more more work to do in unifying the White Tower. Because there are bound to be some Rebel Aes Sedai who feel betrayed. Perhaps not a large amount but a few, and there's bound to be some Reds who look down upon Silvania.

Weakness?  In her?  Every Aes Sedai in both the Tower and Rebel camps has had abundant evidence that Egwene is anything but weak.  Her raising of Silviana to Keeper was explicitly stated as a gesture of reconciliation and unity, implying that she would not view the Reds as a separate and disgraced entity from the rest of the Tower despite their recent history.  Egwene could have disbanded the Red Ajah entirely, just like Elaida did the Blue, and she probably would have gotten away with it.  All the Reds know this.  Relief and gratitude that she didn't and that they're not in disgrace any more is likely to overwhelm all other reactions.

What I meant by weakness is if you believe that the White Tower is more of a set of  beliefs and principles, a way of life than just an actual building then the real "rebels" would be the Red. Egwene, in my mind, should have made the Reds apologize for going against the White Tower, not the Blues. Instead the first thing she did was raise Silviana to try to win support from the Red. Egwene came off as being very needy of the their support, which is what I viewed as weakness.

On the other side, Elaida was Red and favored the Red, so the Red were the most powerful Ajah in the physical Tower. Now all of a sudden they have a new Amyrlin raised without them using their own distorted laws. They are now disgraced and to a certain degree powerless. By that I mean there's hard feelings, which will limit ones influence.

That's a big change of events don't you think, going from the all powerful Ajah to the belittled and disgraced Ajah? Many Reds are bound not to like that turn of events. Now as a Red, what would I see? I see the Blue Ajah, which I helped disband, have to apologize to the new Amyrlin. As a Red, I might see that as a justification for disbanding the Blue. Then I see the new Amyrlin who appears so needy of my support that she practically trips over herself to raise a Red to get my support.

I'm not saying that Egwene is a weak leader, just that from a Red's perspective she could be seen as being weak. After all the Blue had to apologize while the Reds were raised to a high position. Of course some in the Red, I believe would view Silviana as betraying her sisters. You need a scape goat after all, and if its not Elaida then it would be Silviana.  Elaida may have been a cause for pretty much everything, but she gave the Reds a lot of power and influence, so the Reds may not blame her completely.

I'm not saying anyones opinion is wrong. I'm not even trying to change anyones opinion. I'm just trying to clarify mine. Again I just hope that the White Tower isn't one big happy family because I won't believe it. I hope Egwene has a lot more work to do in the coming books.

[Patriotic Kaz]

You lack political suave else you wouldn't quote Regean but yourself . Egwene needed to make the rebels apoligize or the loyalist would refuse to accept them (not to mention the apology strictly is about their actions as agressors not for the dispute over Elaida). The rebels however seem to be more tolerant and do not require an apology from the reds
(not to mention the reds are already on thin ice and an apology may destroy them).

[Ari54]

Instead the first thing she did was raise Silviana to try to win support from the Red. Egwene came off as being very needy of the their support, which is what I viewed as weakness.

I actually viewed it the opposite way: She was protecting the Reds from falling apart or being bullied by the rest of the Tower by lending them her support. She doesn't want anything back except a healthy Tower.

[Publius]

You lack political suave else you wouldn't quote Regean but yourself . Egwene needed to make the rebels apoligize or the loyalist would refuse to accept them (not to mention the apology strictly is about their actions as agressors not for the dispute over Elaida). The rebels however seem to be more tolerant and do not require an apology from the reds
(not to mention the reds are already on thin ice and an apology may destroy them).

I understand what your saying. I'm just trying to point out that there is bound to be some Reds who feel the way that I described above, and there's bound to be some Blues who feel betrayed. If she would've made the decision that I think she should have made then she would've been faced with an entirely different set of problems too. I see her in a no win situation. I feel that there's more work for her to do and would find it unrealistic if the Tower was suddenly unified now.

I went back and reread a few chapters. Check out page 762 second paragraph down. I think I'm right I don't think the Tower is unified yet. Egwene received 2 letters of disapproval from Romanda and Lelaine.

Instead the first thing she did was raise Silviana to try to win support from the Red. Egwene came off as being very needy of the their support, which is what I viewed as weakness.

I actually viewed it the opposite way: She was protecting the Reds from falling apart or being bullied by the rest of the Tower by lending them her support. She doesn't want anything back except a healthy Tower.

I agree with you that's exactly what Egwene's motive was. I was just trying to show how an ambitious Red may have viewed her actions.
 

[Patriotic Kaz]

Only a fool would say the tower has achieved stability or unity....