Oct. 5 - Recoverying Cynic - Oathbound - Ch. 5

[Recovering_Cynic]

It's been a crazy week, and I haven't had much time to write, so it's a good thing I was a little ahead and have material to submit.  This week is going to be equally crazy

One quick note:  I mention in here that there is a glow around the King's soldiers.  This is something I meant to foreshadow earlier in the story and explain a little.  I know it is not well-introduced here, but that is because it should already have been introduced in chapter 3.

[Bravesamwise84]

Just finished reading it. Since this is the first time I've reviewed or workshopped anything, I have a hard time knowing what to say, so I'll follow a criteria I heard on the Writing Excuses episode about Writing Groups.

FIRST - WHAT I THINK YOU DID RIGHT!

What did you do right? Where do I start? I haven't read your other chapters but the Synopses in your email brought me pretty well current. First of all, this chapter's action pulled me in. I found that I liked Valenth, as a character - which helped the feeling of suspense and terror as the events unfolded. I found that, as a Villain (or Villainous Anti-Hero?), I also liked Jagoth. The concept of the hound poison was interesting as well.

SECOND - GLARING PROBLEMS

To me, a glaring problem is something that is not cohesive or somehow knocked me out of the story. That didn't happen to me as I read, so I can't think of anything else to say.

Now, there were a few passages which I felt could be revised for an easier read. However, I don't know how picky I want to get about those minor details in the review - I mean, often those kinds of little problems are easily fixed during the revision process. SO I guess I'll leave that one up to you. If you like I'll read back through and identify the passages, or I can lay off minor details (which is my inclination).

[Recovering_Cynic]

Don't worry about the nit-picky stuff, but if you could identify the passages which took you out of the story, please do so.

[RavenstarRHJF]

Ok, good chapter, well put together, interesting and engaging to read.  But... the placement bothers me.  It would make sense as a flashback, given that Jagoth just purchased armor intended for this specific Knight.  But it's not from Jagoth's POV, it's from Valenth's!  And it's altogether too long and detailed for a flashback- hence why it's a whole chapter unto itself.  But again, here we are- we've been introduced to most if not all of the main players, the story is starting to ramp up some speed... and then you throw us back in time to something that happened months ago!  If anything, I think the proper place to put this (in it's current form, i.e. keeping it chapter length and Doomed-Knight POV) is between the prologue and Chapter 1.  Note: I do like Valenth, though... he kinda redeems my opinion of Knights in general at this point.

That said, you introduce some interesting plot elements here.  I'm particularly intrigued to actually find out what those three oaths are.  We already know one: Protect and do not harm the innocent.  Here is implied another: do not betray your brothers in arms, or possibly, do not aid the enemy.

With every chapter I'm more and more interested to read the whole thing.   So good job!

[Jexral]

Slow had been the norm for almost a year now, and as far as Valenth knew, there had been no dramatic decrease in crime that he was aware of, and yet the King wanted to preserve the exiles

Umm.....

The only emotion Valenth had ever seen on a wildman’s face was hunger and insatiable rage.

Emotions.  Also, I'm not sure hunger is an emotion per se.  I'm not really sure, though.

Jagoth’s eyes narrowed.  “I’ll waste my blows, and my questions, on more important matters. 

I don't like "waste" here.  Why would it be a waste?  <shrug>


Overall, I like this chapter.  It's good to get some flash-backs, because even though they aren't the parts I'm interested in, it seems to promise we will see more. 

I agree with Raven that it is well done, and engaging, and also that it is poorly placed.  If I was reading along, this would take me wholly out of the story.  Also, I thought the transition into it was a little jarring.  I was confused about what was going on, and it took me a minute to realize it was a flash back (though, that may just be my slight obliviousness). 

I really did like this one, even with the slight problems it had.  Keep up the good work, and I'll keep reading it. 

[Bravesamwise84]

I'm going to disagree with the last two comments, and yet agree at the same time. Let me explain.

Yes, I feel like the story is involving too many flashbacks at this point. If the book were to be published just like this, it would be hard to get a pace going at the beginning and many might not make it past the first few chapters for that reason.

But I understand why you're writing them, and they NEED to be written, if only for your benefit. This backstory is in your head, and it establishes the setting and many of the characters as well. We hear in Writing Excuses how even Brandon will write the first few chapters with the KNOWLEDGE that they will probably be eventually cut. But he writes them anyway, because he needs to.

And so I'll argue on both sides, that both of these two have good points, but that I wouldn't get too wrapped up in it. I don't think you should spend too much time stopping to revise the first few chapters right now - that's work for when the novel's rough draft is finished. That is the appropriate time, when you have the scope of the entire book, to figure out which chapters will be your first and which would be cut. When you have that perspective, you'll have a much better instinct for how to begin your book - I may be repetetive, but I'm thorough, and I mean it when I say;

DONT let yourself get caught up in constant revisions. Write the rest of the book!

[Frog]

BSW, I don't disagree with your reasoning, but something you should realize is that when people give critiques, it is usually best to speak in terms of what we would expect if the story was going to be published tomorrow so the author can make edits and take their writing to the next step when the time comes. At least those are the comments I personally find the most helpful. So yes, it may have been good for Cynic to write it no matter what we say, but that doesn't mean we won't give our honest opinion on whether it flows and works with the current story.

Thoughts While Reading:
What? Who? Why? When? Could just be a writing group problem, but I had a really hard time getting my bearings here and it was fusterating.

Okay, now I'm mad. You finally give me a halfway decent character that I could care about (and that in turn makes me care more about te fate of your world, because the way I see it, if they are all rotten, why should I care who wins or what happens to them later?) and then you kill him within the same chapter. I don't know if I shall ever forgive you for that, or at least not Jarl. Maybe if it was closer to the scene where he actually spares someone, it would help... slightly.   

Overall impression:
Alright, trying to be constuctive here, I enjoyed reading about this character and liked a lot of the things you were doing in worldbuilding. You could probably condese and tighten up a lot of the build up in the begining, but otherwise the scene was fine. As others had said, I would consider moving it around or at least give us more warning that you are going into flasback mode, but I think this all great information that we need to have somewhere. Oh, and in terms of being a flashback, whose flashback/memory is it? You tell it from the knights pov, but as he dies, I just see that as making it more awkward especially as it is currently placed.

Keep it coming...

[Recovering_Cynic]

I think some of the placement issues people have been bringing up are writing group related.  If you had just been reading the last chapter immediately before beginning this one, then Ch. 5 would make more sense.  At the end of the Ch. 4, Jagoth has just purchased a set of armor that looks very familiar because he has a set of it (impliedly from Sir Valenth) hidden outside the city walls.  From that scene (if you were reading straight through) you would turn the page, and the next line starts "Sir Valenth . . ."  Since you just learned that the Valenth is dead, I think it would be clearer that this is a scene from the past.  The reader has to work a little, but I think it's doable.  Then again, many of these first chapters are going to be mobile until I figure out how they are going to be placed.  For example, I am going to be bumping what is now chapter two to chapter three.  The replacement Ch. 2 is going to introduce a new character (and I hope to write that chapter at some point this weekend--I have it outlined).  The long and short of it is, I'll be shuffling these chapters around.  I want to keep most of them, but we'll see how that all works out.

[RavenstarRHJF]

RC, I see what you're saying... but I still think it's a bit jarring to go back at least a month in time in a flashback from a different point of view.  It would make perfect sense if it were Jagoth narrating, but it's not.     But good to know fluidity is an option... 

[Recovering_Cynic]

Okay, now I'm mad. You finally give me a halfway decent character that I could care about (and that in turn makes me care more about te fate of your world, because the way I see it, if they are all rotten, why should I care who wins or what happens to them later?) and then you kill him within the same chapter. I don't know if I shall ever forgive you for that, or at least not Jarl. Maybe if it was closer to the scene where he actually spares someone, it would help... slightly.

I'll give you someone to cheer for in the new chapter two... well sort of.  There will be more hating first probably, but there will be a character you like as well.  I decided a few weeks back that Jagoth needs a foil, and his name is Baltier.  I'd already had him in the book, but as I was writing about him I realized he needed a bigger part than I'd originally given him.  Tip: don't get attached to his wife, Mariana...

[Frog]

I agree with Raven. If it is Jarl's flashback triggered by a memory of having the armor, it would make a lot more since if it was from his POV.

I'll give you someone to cheer for in the new chapter two... well sort of.  There will be more hating first probably, but there will be a character you like as well.  I decided a few weeks back that Jagoth needs a foil, and his name is Baltier.  I'd already had him in the book, but as I was writing about him I realized he needed a bigger part than I'd originally given him.  Tip: don't get attached to his wife, Mariana...

You like killing wives, don't you? Should your current wife be worried?
And I will decide whether I like said character for myself, thank you very much.

[Recovering_Cynic]

The thing is, I plan on having a lot of view-point characters in the book.  Two of them will be main characters (Baltier and Jagoth), one of them the "villain" (Lucard), and the others will be used as needed.  Valenth was used in this chapter because his viewpoint would be the most interesting, and I plan on using a similar method of selecting POV throughout the rest of the book, with the two MCs and villains getting more screen time than most.  I've certainly seen other authors use the same technique successfully, and Lynch at least does it well with flashbacks.  Of course, I hadn't read Lynch before I started writing this, but I picked up The Lies of Locke Lamora this weekend, and it was comforting to know that other authors have succeeded at doing what I am trying to do. 

Of course, it may very well all fail miserably, but it will be fun trying

[Bravesamwise84]

BSW, I don't disagree with your reasoning, but something you should realize is that when people give critiques, it is usually best to speak in terms of what we would expect if the story was going to be published tomorrow...

I understand that. But also one of the tendencies of Writing Groups is to get hung up on something small, and in this case, I feel that is happening. OK, so we've talked about the hopping back and forth between times/POVs. I think we've sufficiently covered it - let's move on and be more helpful.

[Frog]

We were having a discussion that the author was participating in. I don't think it went overally long, especially since we were getting opinions from different people and had our full critiques where we had mentioned other things besides just that one problem. Threads run a little wild here sometimes because we don't have a set format. We all have our own style of critiquing, people chime in at different times (w/e they get to critiquing) and tend to chat with each other, but this one seemed to be staying right on topic and is actually pretty typical of the group. If you don't like a discussion, feel free to ignore it. It'll pass on it's own. Promise.

So, to clarify. My problem wasn't that it was a flashback or that it was another POV, just that it was both together seemingly out of nowhere. If you had done one or the other (put the new POV in cronological order or used a flashback in Jarl's POV) I might not have mentioned it at all. As it is, it is jarring, but if that is the effect you are going for more power to you.

[Bravesamwise84]

Likewise if you don't like my comments, you may choose to ignore them. I was simply making a point that, in the end, it's better that these chapters be written (if nothing else but for completeness of setting and plot backstory for his own reference) then to get hung up on this. Getting "hung up" in general can distract from getting work done.