Author Topic: Obama's Health Care plan  (Read 8253 times)

Eerongal

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Re: Obama's Health Care plan
« Reply #15 on: August 26, 2009, 05:29:13 PM »

They're not actually.  Every case I've looked up, Canada, England, France, etc... are unsustainable financially.  Why they are unsustainable is wide open to debate, and they aren't actually working.

And ours isn't? Ours has the highest per resident cost, and in 2007 was 16.2% of our Gross Domestic Product, as opposed to:

France: 11% GDP
England: 7.5%
Italy: 8.9%
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Peter Ahlstrom

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Re: Obama's Health Care plan
« Reply #16 on: August 26, 2009, 05:40:33 PM »
People are making enormous amounts of cash BY HURTING OTHER PEOPLE BY DENYING THEM HELP WHEN THEY NEED IT therefore those people are evil.

I suppose I shouldn't insist that my neighbor pay for my police protection, or my military protection, or my roads, or my gradeschool education.

The only way insurance works is that healthy people pay for sick people. And then when those healthy people eventually get sick, other healthy people pay for them. If everyone was in one big pool, costs would be lower. The only way you're going to connect covering everyone to making money is if the government gets involved! A truly free market would dump sick people and cover only healthy people, because sick people are more expensive. It's common sense.

I'm not talking about giving anyone anything for free. But mandated coverage will share the costs around, like you do with the police and the military. If only parents of school-age kids paid for gradeschool education costs, we'd have a ton of illiterate kids running around because their parents couldn't afford to send them to school. It's in the public good of society as a whole to pay for education.

If I had to pay $5000 every time I needed to call the police to my home, and much much more every time there was a very serious crime to be solved, I wouldn't be calling them very often, would I? (On the other hand, a $20 copay when you call 911 would cut down on frivolous calls.)

Everyone I've talked to in Canada is very happy with their healthcare system. I think there is a ton of misinformation out there, and I don't know why people are spreading it or what they get from it. There seems to be a need to fearmonger.

My car insurance company returns excess profits to policyholders at the end of the year, has done so for decades, and it was ranked #1 in the US in 2006 for overall customer satisfaction. It WORKS.
« Last Edit: August 26, 2009, 05:58:37 PM by Ookla The Mok »
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Comfortable Madness

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Re: Obama's Health Care plan
« Reply #17 on: August 26, 2009, 05:56:47 PM »
The problem of he "one big pool" you speak of is that not everyone in said pool would be contributing. And why would they when "everyone else" has it covered. Sure on paper great idea! Everyone that's healthy and has money pays for all the sick people. Great. Problem is that without any incentive of being a contributing member of society many simply won't contribute.

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I suppose I shouldn't insist that my neighbor pay for my police protection, or my military protection, or my roads, or my gradeschool education.

The difference is you actually want and get benefits from those things. Whereas being forced to pay for someone elses healthcare does not benefit you in any way.



« Last Edit: August 26, 2009, 05:59:29 PM by Comfortable Madness »
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Peter Ahlstrom

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Re: Obama's Health Care plan
« Reply #18 on: August 26, 2009, 05:59:35 PM »
I already explained how it benefits you. When you get sick, someone else pays for you. Unless you have no insurance and just pay everything from your bank account, this is how it happens NOW.

Mandated coverage means everyone is required to pay. Some people will be too poor to pay anything, but those people don't pay taxes either yet still are protected by the police. When they start making money again, they start paying again.
« Last Edit: August 26, 2009, 06:01:52 PM by Ookla The Mok »
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Re: Obama's Health Care plan
« Reply #19 on: August 26, 2009, 06:01:10 PM »
I already explained how it benefits you. When you get sick, someone else pays for you.

I also responded that it wouldn't work that way. There are simply those who will never contribute to the pool. Thus, never paying for me in return.
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Peter Ahlstrom

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Re: Obama's Health Care plan
« Reply #20 on: August 26, 2009, 06:02:30 PM »
So you think they should just die?

You already pay for them one way or another. They go to emergency rooms unable to pay and you pick up the tab. Better they are covered and go to normal doctor hours and not to overworked emergency rooms.

I'm for eliminating fraud in the system, but just refusing to help sick people is not the way to do it. Overall quality of life is not great if you're living on the street. There are many self-motivating factors for getting out of a life like that. And into one where you are making money and paying for things yourself.

Some people never get off the street. I don't understand why that is, but I'm not going to condemn them to death for it.
« Last Edit: August 26, 2009, 06:08:32 PM by Ookla The Mok »
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Re: Obama's Health Care plan
« Reply #21 on: August 26, 2009, 06:06:41 PM »
So you think they should just die?

I definately do not think that. Maybe there can be an option on your tax form that allows for you to contribute to some sort of universal healthcare for those less fortunate or down on their luck. The key there is the option part. Noone should be forced into this type of plan. Look I don't claim to have the final answer to the healthcare problem that hounds the U.S.. I do however disagree with the plan that Obama is pushing forward.
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Peter Ahlstrom

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Re: Obama's Health Care plan
« Reply #22 on: August 26, 2009, 06:09:29 PM »
Yes, that would work, because everyone is full of compassion and will be standing in line to pay the government more than the government says they should.

I'm out for now since I have stuff to do.
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Re: Obama's Health Care plan
« Reply #23 on: August 26, 2009, 06:13:26 PM »
Yes, that would work, because everyone is full of compassion and will be standing in line to pay the government more than the government says they should.



So, then the government should force us to pay into anything they say is "good" for us then?
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Skar

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Re: Obama's Health Care plan
« Reply #24 on: August 26, 2009, 06:30:58 PM »
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People are making enormous amounts of cash BY HURTING OTHER PEOPLE therefore those people are evil.
This reasoning is unfortunate.  Let me extend it and see where it takes us.  Insurance companies, whose stated and logical purpose is to make money, are refusing to cover people like your daughter, are therefore hurting her and are thus evil.

I, every day, decline to pay for your daughter's medical bills or even contribute a partial payment.  This is implicit on my part.  I could cough up some cash for you. I don't.  By your reasoning, this makes me evil, along with every other human being on the planet.  As evil as the health insurance companies if not more so. Unless, of course, you put me in a different category than the health insurance companies when it comes to moral obligation.

At what point did it become the moral obligation of the health insurance companies to pay for your daughter's healthcare? If they are obligated so to do, why are you not paying for their healthcare?  Why are you not paying for mine?

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I suppose I shouldn't insist that my neighbor pay for my police protection, or my military protection, or my roads.
Not at all.  These are common goods and benefit everyone.  Those who use them and benefit from them should pay for them.  How do I, for example, benefit from your healthcare coverage?

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The only way insurance works is that healthy people pay for sick people. And then when those healthy people eventually get sick, other healthy people pay for them.
Actually, no, that's not how it works.  The insurance companies gamble that the money they collect from their customers, sick and healthy alike, will equal more than what they must pay for the care of the sick people according to their contracts.  Enough more that they can meet operating costs and make enough of a profit to make it worth their while.  The profit motive is the only reason anyone ever got into the health insurance business, exactly like any other business.

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If everyone was in one big pool, costs would be lower.
Absolutely.  And why are there no bigger pools right now? The government prohibits health insurance programs from crossing state lines.  Which, incidentally, is untrue of auto-insurance.

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The only way you're going to connect covering everyone to making money is if the government gets involved!
Huh? Expand your reasoning for me please.

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A truly free market would dump sick people and cover only healthy people, because sick people are more expensive. It's common sense.
Actually, no.  If health insurance companies behaved that way, dumping you the moment you got sick, no one would buy it in the first place.  There's common sense for you.
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I'm not talking about giving anyone anything for free. But mandated coverage will share the costs around, like you do with the police and the military.
You missed my point.  It's IMPOSSIBLE to give it away for free, because it's NOT free. It always costs.  All you're doing by getting the government involved is filtering taxpayer's money through the largest bureaucracy in the history of the world before it ever gets to pay for actual healthcare.  

I would have no problem paying into a limited government-run health insurance program designed to cover the hard cases, like pre-existing conditions and people who actually can't afford private insurance, if it could be run efficiently.  But, we already have those programs and they are not run efficiently. As you found, they suck. They're horrible, time-consuming, bureaucratic nightmares that provide sub-standard everything. If that's all you can afford, it's certainly better than nothing.  But it's not exactly the best case scenario.  And now we want to, essentially, expand those programs and penalize people for not participating?  I would like to decline please.

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Everyone I've talked to in Canada is very happy with their healthcare system. I think there is a ton of misinformation out there, and I don't know why people are spreading it or what they get from it. There seems to be a need to fearmonger.
Ah, so those articles I linked to were made up from thin-air.  Well, I suppose that's possible.  Or perhaps the misinformation is on the other side of the debate as well.

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My car insurance company returns excess profits to policyholders at the end of the year, has done so for decades, and it was ranked #1 in the US in 2006 for overall customer satisfaction. It WORKS.
And was it necessary for the government to mandate that behavior as you claim it would be for health insurance?  If it wasn't you've proven my point about the free market as opposed to government control.  The auto insurance industry is far less regulated than the health insurance industry.  So...what conclusions can we draw from that?
« Last Edit: August 26, 2009, 06:33:15 PM by Skar »
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sortitus

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Re: Obama's Health Care plan
« Reply #25 on: August 26, 2009, 06:57:12 PM »
People are making enormous amounts of cash BY HURTING OTHER PEOPLE BY DENYING THEM HELP WHEN THEY NEED IT therefore those people are evil.
I normally try to avoid calling people "evil" unnecessarily. While people would be evil to deny service to the injured because they enjoyed seeing them in pain, I don't think that refusing to cover chronically ill people is "evil". Sickeningly smart, maybe. Life sucks and you die. Some people get out earlier than others by nature of their sucky character rolls. Most people learn to adapt.
I suppose I shouldn't insist that my neighbor pay for my police protection, or my military protection, or my roads, or my gradeschool education.
No, you shouldn't expect your neighbor to pay for your government's military. Especially since it is illegal (or, as lawmakers are so fond of saying about every possible topic, unconstitutional) for the government of the country you live in to maintain a standing army. I'm split on education. While it's lovely to have mandatory primary school, it's stupid to pay for students who don't want to be there. Let them grow up and realize what idiots they were and finally go to school.
The only way insurance works is that healthy people pay for sick people. And then when those healthy people eventually get sick, other healthy people pay for them. If everyone was in one big pool, costs would be lower. The only way you're going to connect covering everyone to making money is if the government gets involved! A truly free market would dump sick people and cover only healthy people, because sick people are more expensive. It's common sense.
No, see, some people would get upset and make their own company for health care. It would be more expensive because the people it would cover would be higher risk customers, but it would be available. That's what happens now. While getting everyone into the same pool is nice, you can't charge a 30 year old the same as an80 year old. I can see not discriminating against people because of their health status, but some people are just more likely to be using the health care system because of their age.
I'm not talking about giving anyone anything for free. But mandated coverage will share the costs around, like you do with the police and the military. If only parents of school-age kids paid for gradeschool education costs, we'd have a ton of illiterate kids running around because their parents couldn't afford to send them to school. It's in the public good of society as a whole to pay for education.
A government's job is to provide protection in exchange for some freedoms and money. If you personally feel that every youth in your nation needs advanced education, then you and like-minded individuals can make that happen. I'm just not willing to trade in quality of education for people who won't care about the education they receive.
If I had to pay $5000 every time I needed to call the police to my home, and much much more every time there was a very serious crime to be solved, I wouldn't be calling them very often, would I? (On the other hand, a $20 copay when you call 911 would cut down on frivolous calls.)
Law enforcement is one of the necessary services a government provides. You seem to be equating a free market to anarchy. There's a quite large difference between the two. The second exists only briefly because people will form groups that evolve into local governments, the kind of government depending on the types of people you have creating them.
Not at all.  These are common goods and benefit everyone.  Those who use them and benefit from them should pay for them.  How do I, for example, benefit from your healthcare coverage?
You don't personally benefit from (or pay for) Ookla's local law enforcement unless you live in the same county. If you pay for his health care, you don't personally benefit from it unless you are likely to catch a disease from the area he lives in. Which is actually far more likely than a criminal from his area affecting you in any way. While I agree with you for the most part, this is just a silly assertion. Of those five services (military, law enforcement, education, roads, and health care), the ones you benefit least from are Ookla's education, roads, and law enforcement. Unless he is a part of the production or development of a product you use, which could well be the case. He is for me.
« Last Edit: August 26, 2009, 07:10:13 PM by sortitus »
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Re: Obama's Health Care plan
« Reply #26 on: August 26, 2009, 07:08:19 PM »
We're not fearmongering, we're just stating facts.  Polls show that less than half of Canadians like the outcomes of their health plan, while the U.S is slightly more than half.  Not mind-shattering numbers, I'll admit, but it is there.  You are making my point with regard to the car insurance companies, so why don't we start by employing the same standards for health insurance?  Make them all compete fairly.  The government already funds 46% of  total healthcare costs, with private insurance picking up 42% and out-of-pocket expenses equalling 12%.  As a comparison, Canada is about 70-30 (they didn't have the out of pocket numbers).  I am currently reading an interesting article showing a loophole in compensation to doctors via imaging technology.  The cost of an MRI or CT Scan is absolutely out of control.  Just getting this number in line with other countries would lower costs significantly.
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Eerongal

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Re: Obama's Health Care plan
« Reply #27 on: August 26, 2009, 07:15:03 PM »
People are making enormous amounts of cash BY HURTING OTHER PEOPLE BY DENYING THEM HELP WHEN THEY NEED IT therefore those people are evil.

I normally try to avoid calling people "evil" unnecessarily. While people would be evil to deny service to the injured because they enjoyed seeing them in pain, I don't think that refusing to cover chronically ill people is "evil". Sickeningly smart, maybe. Life sucks and you die. Some people get out earlier than others by nature of their sucky character rolls. Most people learn to adapt.

and what of people who get dropped by their healthcare provider because they have suddenly become to great an expenditure? Sentencing people to die because of no health because it's cost effective doesn't seem like a terrible idea to you?
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Re: Obama's Health Care plan
« Reply #28 on: August 26, 2009, 07:24:34 PM »
I never said that it wasn't a terrible idea, I just said that I wouldn't call it evil. I tend to be very sparing with the term, especially since it has historically been used by religious zealots to justify their dickery. Rapists and serial killers do evil things and enjoy them. That's evil, no matter what psychological excuse you can find for it.

If I understand the regulations right, you can't be dropped by a provider legally unless you let your coverage lapse, at which point they can refuse you as a new customer.
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Eerongal

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Re: Obama's Health Care plan
« Reply #29 on: August 26, 2009, 07:34:22 PM »
If I understand the regulations right, you can't be dropped by a provider legally unless you let your coverage lapse, at which point they can refuse you as a new customer.

They apparently can. As I said earlier, I have my reasons for disliking the current healthcare system, and that's because my father was diagnosed with terminal cancer at the age of 50, and was promptly dropped by his healthcare provider, citing the costs of treatment versus the chances of success or something along those lines. His healthcare was part of his benefits package from his place of employment, and this happened even before he went on disability. I'm not sure of the legal mumbo jumbo that went along with it, but we checked into it after it happened, and was apparently legal on some grounds. All medical expense came directly out of our pockets.

All in all, after all was said and done, on what treatment we could afford without healthcare, he lived 6 years longer than the 6 months he was diagnosed with. There's no doubt in my mind he would have a much better shot at being alive today if we had healthcare to help pay for the treatments.
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