Author Topic: Aug 4th - Erik Holmes - The Sword of Worlds - Chapter 13  (Read 2355 times)

ErikHolmes

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Aug 4th - Erik Holmes - The Sword of Worlds - Chapter 13
« on: August 05, 2009, 06:15:35 AM »
Sorry if its a little long and late.

As always, thanks for the comments!
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Re: Aug 4th - Erik Holmes - The Sword of Worlds - Chapter 13
« Reply #1 on: August 05, 2009, 02:31:02 PM »
Yeah - that was a double entry at @6000 words! Pretty good. I felt like the humor was wearing thin at parts. I think it works better for you when used more sparingly. It seemed like you ramped it up quite a bit for this chapter. The story is progressing well. The relationship is developing ok but it still seems a bit too strong for the time they have spent together in my opinion. May just be me though.

Overall reads well and stays interesting.
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Re: Aug 4th - Erik Holmes - The Sword of Worlds - Chapter 13
« Reply #2 on: August 05, 2009, 11:17:50 PM »
Kasja giggling seems rather out of character. Laughing or chuckling maybe, but not giggling.

Within just a few paragraphs, Kail seems rather less likeable than he did at the beginning of the story. I get the impression that you, through Kail,are trying for a cavalier sort of humour here, but I just find it kind of overbearing. Not necessarily unbelievable, but I like him (not as a character, necessarily; this is a personality thing) less than I did.

What I DO find unbelievable is this line: "Okay, her calling me Lover was hawt." Totally knee-jerk reaction to this one. I mean, does anyone actually SAY stuff like that? (If they do, may I have their names, addresses, and a pistol?)

Does Kajsa know nothing of woodcraft? Seems to be implied, when Kail says there's no trace of her, but I find it a bit surprising.

"...I was distracted as hell. Spiders shouldn’t have wings. It’s just wrong." Um, should I know what the heck he's talking about here? Because I'm afraid I don't.

I could just be misremembering, but Kajsa's dialogue seems to have changed this chapter; she's speaking a less formally, so that her lines are almost indistinct from Kail's. Or did she always do that?

Kail's relief when Kajsa says "not dogs, wolves" strikes me as a little odd. I mean, I get the "hooray normal" sentiment but it hasn't occured to him to be a little worried for her?

I'm starting to wonder a bit about the pacing of this. Not from this submission in particular--in and of itself it doesn't feel particularly draggy, nor do I remember thinking so about any of the other individual sections. However. When I look back at the thing as a whole, it does seem like we're talking a long time to build up to ... whatever it is we're building up to. (Part of the problem, maybe, or the potential problem--I don't really know what we're building up to any better than I did when those guys first attacked Lance at work. I don't need to know everything, but we should start getting some more bits and pieces of what's going on by now. Stringing us along on the strength of the wonder of your world is fine for a time, but you can only get away with it for so long, and I submit to you that you shouldn't HAVE to "get away with it".) And from where I'm sitting, it seems like Kail and Kajsa will have to make their way to Ellie, through various obstacles and delays, before the story really starts.

I don't say that to imply that I haven't been interested so far, because that's not the case. By this point, however, we need to have some idea what the main thrust of the story is and where we're going from here.

This, of course, is not necessarily something that needs to be addressed in a first draft. But you probably want to be aware of it. =)

Chaos

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Re: Aug 4th - Erik Holmes - The Sword of Worlds - Chapter 13
« Reply #3 on: August 06, 2009, 05:47:16 AM »
I concur with Silk on pretty much all of her comments. I would also say, Erik, that I did mention that I'm waiting for the "main plot" to happen soon, and so Silk's comments made me smile. Main plot better come up pretty soon. Meandering is okay (like introducing Melia--which was perfectly fine, but if you do that every new chapter it will get old really fast).

I noticed a lot of line-edit issues. This may be because I printed the submission out and had my pen at the ready, rather than just reading on the computer, however. I would like to note: thanks for double-spacing :). Line issues will come at the end.

Maybe I've listened to a lot of Patrick Rothfuss interviews, but every now and then, I start to hear him narrate Kail's chapters...

Reading this chapter, I decided I want more internal conflict with Kail. You had the "do I really love her" thing, which was what I'm missing from Kail. Internal conflict makes the story always more interesting to read. Here, though, it felt like I was getting all of the internal struggle all at once. It would probably work better spread out a little more subtly, in my opinion. Your narration has a lot of jokes, while I'm not fully believing how dangerous or strange this world is. I liked the line with the spiders. I want more of Kail reacting to the environment, and him at least acknowledging his complete safety with Kajsa. A little more balance with the light humor and the darker, strange world can go a long way here.

Kail curses a lot more in this chapter. Makes no difference to me, of course, but just make sure you aren't mistaking curse words for punchlines.

The humor. You've done a good job so far. If you continue at the rate of this chapter though, you're going to need to step up the funny-ness to it. I mean, one liners are great. If you want to be really funny, you need to subtly set up jokes that have payoffs later on, much like plot arcs.

This leads me into exactly what I want to talk about next: the Obi-Wan line. Loved it. I noted, however, such a line is really obscure, so it may not be as effective as it would be for a huge geek like me. Later I saw two other spots where you could have Star Wars-related quips. 1. The time where Kail calls her a Princess. I completely heard Han Solo saying "Princess" half-snarkily to Leia right there. 2. The mention of Sith. I have no clue where you whipped that one out, but you should at least acknowledge the Star Wars aspect to that. Kail certainly would, being from our universe. Either make fun of it or change the name. If not, I will fully expect Melia to use Force Lightning and whip out a red lightsaber.

What I mean is, this chapter totally could have had a Star Wars theme to it to add more flavor to the humor, rather than just being a string of one-liners. Reminds me Alcatraz, actually. In each of those books they reference a particular Greek philosopher and sets up a recurring metaphor for bigger payoffs later. You might want to think about it.

Anyways, I fear I got way too prescriptive in those last two paragraphs. I apologize :P. I did like the chapter, though. Kail and Kajsa are fun to observe. Just be thinking... main plot!

Okay, line edits. Silk probably got a lot of these already, but I'm going to look through my notes anyways. I'll also point out lines which made me laugh, as I've regularly been doing with your submissions.

Quote
A little Troll TLC is just what I needed.

I'll readily admit I'm awful with acronyms, but this one was a bit obscure. Looked to Wikipedia, and when that disambiguation page didn't have anything, I clicked the link to Wiktionary. ...Little obscure.

Quote
Magic VD could kiss my ass.

This and the previous Troll AIDS line made me laugh out loud. I wonder if Kajsa will get pregnant! ;) If they keep going at it this much, she probably will, if it's even possible for humans and Trolls to procreate.

Quote
“Whoa . . .” was all I could say.

It's plenty self-explanatory that "Whoa" is all you can say if, you know, you don't say anything else. Seemed redundant to me. (There more of these dialogue-tag issues I've marked, so watch out for those)

Quote
“Now I am ready,” she said, looking dark and serious.

My notes here say "Kajsa kicks ass".

Quote
Okay, her calling me Lover was hawt.

I like what this line is conveying, but it should be conveyed better. Or at least spelled correctly. As it is, it jars.

Quote
I looked her in those golden eyes of hers.

One too many "her" pronouns in here. You could just as easily say "I looked at those golden eyes of hers" for the same effect, but less jarring.

Quote
Damn. What a woman.

I love it.

Quote
I pointed at it, “Is that normal?”

In my humble opinion, just change the comma into a period. "Pointing" isn't a synonym for "said" or "speak". By virtue of the dialogue being in the same paragraph, you're implying Kail is talking.

Quote
And we kept walking, I had millions of questions, but what can I say, I didn’t want to look like a bitch in front of Kajsa.

This threw me out of the story a bit. If anything... females would worry about being a bitch. It's kind of odd for Kail to use that particular word here, referring to himself.

Twice you use the phrase "dirty look". Clearly Kail likes that turn of phrase, so I'll stop bugging you about it ;)

Quote
A really smelly Draken, and Draken smell.

This line forced me to reread it to understand what she's saying. It doesn't feel very "Kajsa" to speak like that. Maybe it's because, as Silk pointed out, it is much less formal than we are used to.

This is being a lot of line issues... Sorry about them. They really weren't that big of a deal, I just want to point it out to you.

Quote
She shrugged, "Not many."

I'd change the comma to a period, again.

About commas, actually. Usually they are used for offsetting things, like names. In these two places:

Quote
"He's not for you Melia.

Quote
"Give her to me Kail.

We should have commas offsetting Melia and Kail, respectively.

Okay, I'm done. I feel bad for pointing these out. This is probably why I shouldn't print out submissions and do this by hand. Sorry.

I will say, however, I liked Kajsa's closing line. :)
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Frog

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Re: Aug 4th - Erik Holmes - The Sword of Worlds - Chapter 13
« Reply #4 on: August 06, 2009, 05:56:34 AM »
Thoughts While Reading:
Quote
hawt.
Again, fine in the dialogue. Not here though.

Quote
Spiders shouldn’t have wings. It’s just wrong.
What spiders?

Quote
I backed up a few steps on the boulder behind us, hoping the high ground would do me as much good as it did Obi-Won.
Now, I got it, so I laughed, but be careful with all these names because it really dates a book.

Quote
Kajsa pouted, sticking out her lower lip at me.
Cutsie Kajsa is annoying, but it is believable enough I suppose.

Quote
I smiled back at her, trying to cover my shock. I hadn’t expected her just drop the L-word like that.
She's been calling him 'Lover' so why should this surprise him?

Quote
When she picked me up back there, it really hit me. Kajsa could toss me like I’d throw a basketball. No wonder the Draken ran from her
. If it hit him way back when, why is he just now talking about it now?

Quote
Women are so strange . . .
hypocritical idiot. He's been falling over every girl he meets in this book and women are strange? Granted, both women you have him meet are rather cavalier. Added to Ellie's experience, I am wondering if all your exploration of races will be centered in their sexual practices.

I did like the line you ended it on though.

Overall Impression:
I still find Kail beyond irritating (but I supposed if he stopped being irritating it would be a big breach of character at this point) and their instant, baseless relationship is hard for me to swallow, banter ofter goes overly long and I am still waiting for the plot to rear its ugly head. Now what can I say that is positive? I liked some aspects of the Dryad (mostly its existence because I like fae things on principle), the reference to Ellie tree poisoning ways and that we got a little guilt from Kail. Yeah, that is basically it.

Yea! I caught up and you have all my comments now, for the whole two cents they are worth! :D
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Chaos

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Re: Aug 4th - Erik Holmes - The Sword of Worlds - Chapter 13
« Reply #5 on: August 06, 2009, 06:03:48 AM »
I would like to add two cents to Frog's critique:

Quote
Quote
Women are so strange . . .
hypocritical idiot. He's been falling over every girl he meets in this book and women are strange?

This is a fairly universal sentiment from basically every single guy I've ever talked to, so I sympathized with him there. Just because he likes a woman doesn't mean he understands them :P At least, that's my humble opinion.
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Frog

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Re: Aug 4th - Erik Holmes - The Sword of Worlds - Chapter 13
« Reply #6 on: August 06, 2009, 06:15:52 AM »
Yes, well I do pride myself on confusing every single man I come into contact with, but it was more of the context of the quote  I was reacting to more then the quote itself. Melia and Kajsa were discussing men in a sexual way if I recall correctly, so it seemed hypocritical of him to say that they were strange to do so after all his previous behavior. And it was basically a reactionary statement too; not necessarily a problem as so far it seems in character for Kail at this point. That is why I find him an idiot and a lot of things as I have said in other critiques, but I really am trying to keep that ranting at a minimum as I know my opinion may not be the popular one, so yeah, done now.
 
But thanks for adding two cents to my critique. Now it is worth twice as much! :D
« Last Edit: August 06, 2009, 08:19:43 PM by Frog »
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Chaos

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Re: Aug 4th - Erik Holmes - The Sword of Worlds - Chapter 13
« Reply #7 on: August 06, 2009, 08:06:16 PM »
Hahaha, glad I could help ;)

I do think Kajsa has a lot more to her than a sexual side, but Melia, I think, I just a nymphomaniac. Since last semester i just read The Odyssey, I don't have too much trouble buying that particular aspect. :p

Hmmm, though I do think it wouldn't be too difficult to make Kail more appealing to female readers. I was thinking about it last night, and I feel that Kail in his current form could indeed put off a lot of female readers. So I don't think it's just you, Frog.
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ErikHolmes

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Re: Aug 4th - Erik Holmes - The Sword of Worlds - Chapter 13
« Reply #8 on: August 07, 2009, 08:17:17 PM »
I do think Kajsa has a lot more to her than a sexual side, but Melia, I think, I just a nymphomaniac. Since last semester i just read The Odyssey, I don't have too much trouble buying that particular aspect. :p

Yes, Melia IS a Nymphomaniac. In fact, Melia is a Wood Nymph. The term Nymphomaniac come from Nymphs. The word nymphomaniac now means your hypersexual, but what it originally meant was: "You're acting like a Nymph."

Melia also lives in the middle of a big forest, full of man-eating Draken and Wolves. Just doesn't see a lot of men.  :D

Hmmm, though I do think it wouldn't be too difficult to make Kail more appealing to female readers. I was thinking about it last night, and I feel that Kail in his current form could indeed put off a lot of female readers. So I don't think it's just you, Frog.

I agree with you both. One thing I like about first drafts is I can just throw things out there and get a good feel for what is too much, what works, what doesn't work, etc. In my next draft I'll probably tone Kail down. I've begun to realize that I can make him a smartass without him always being a smartass.

Another thing I was telling Chaos that I like about first drafts is that I can just throw out every lame joke or one liner that comes to my head and gage the results. The Obi-Won line is obscure, but seems like a keeper (and to be honest, I threw that in at the last second, I never thought about putting that one there. But when I had Kail back up on that rock, it just came to me. The funny part of that scene was supposed to have been Kajsa just grabbing the Draken and snapping his neck.
I'll probably keep the Bill Clinton joke, but move it a little further into the chapter so that Kail seems a little less-jerkish.
Other things like using hawt are probably right out.

One thing I think I've learned from this draft is that I need to make Kail a little more serious or just doesn't come out right. I think I had the right tone for him in the chapter where he first meets Kajsa. In the next draft I'll tone down the humor, add more of him doing some thinking about whats going on, and ramp up the worrying about Ellie.

As for the plot, its coming. The next chapter will have Ellie completely thrown into the middle of the plot thats been going on behind the scenes and things should progress quickly from there.

Thanks for all of the comments guys, you're a huge help!
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Frog

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Re: Aug 4th - Erik Holmes - The Sword of Worlds - Chapter 13
« Reply #9 on: August 07, 2009, 09:26:12 PM »
Sorry me again, but I just want to point out that I didn't have a problem with Melia being blatantly true to her nymph ways, rather than that we had the very available Troll, the gang raping gargoyles and then the nymph in a very close succession along with Kail being, well, Kail that made me think you might be going a bit overboard. Less is more and all that. Sounds like you're working on it though. :)

Oh, yes. Good old Homer. I wonder how he and Odysseus would fair if they tried to come out in the current market? I imagine it would go something like this:
http://blog.nathanbransford.com/2009/08/guest-blog-week-re-your-query-for.html
« Last Edit: August 07, 2009, 09:30:19 PM by Frog »
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ErikHolmes

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Re: Aug 4th - Erik Holmes - The Sword of Worlds - Chapter 13
« Reply #10 on: August 07, 2009, 10:57:56 PM »
Sorry me again, but I just want to point out that I didn't have a problem with Melia being blatantly true to her nymph ways, rather than that we had the very available Troll, the gang raping gargoyles and then the nymph in a very close succession along with Kail being, well, Kail that made me think you might be going a bit overboard. Less is more and all that. Sounds like you're working on it though. :)

LOL, you know, I really didn't think about it that way. I guess there has been a lot of horniness going around. (Wow, that's actually a word). But don't blame me, blame the Fairy Tales:

I took Draken from the Andrew Lang collections of Fairy Tales. The Blue Fairy Book, Grey Fairy Book, etc. They were always having affairs with females, etc. It was actually one of the things I struggled with, in the fairy tales, they are way uglier then my version IMO. Sometimes they have three heads, etc. Yet women were always running off and betraying family to have an affair with one. Hmm, maybe I should give them an pheromone attack in the next draft. Could be interesting if at first Ellie wants to go with them.  :D

Huldra are known for being very sexual. Pretty much, if you meet a huldra she's probably going to have sex with you and if you don't please her, she's going to eat you, curse you, etc. I didn't find out until about a week ago, but this guy in Europe (Norway I think) wrote a song that won their big music awards and it was based on a huldra.

It's called Fairytale (Or I'm in love with a Fairytale) and I actually think its pretty good. I play it when writing sometimes. It's Kail and Kajsa's new theme song.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TaSshKURz7g It's in english, despite the beginning.

But yeah, I suppose these last few chapters have had a lot of that. But don't worry, I'm not going to turn into Laura K. Hamilton or anything . . .
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Chaos

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Re: Aug 4th - Erik Holmes - The Sword of Worlds - Chapter 13
« Reply #11 on: August 08, 2009, 01:11:17 AM »
Sorry me again, but I just want to point out that I didn't have a problem with Melia being blatantly true to her nymph ways, rather than that we had the very available Troll, the gang raping gargoyles and then the nymph in a very close succession along with Kail being, well, Kail that made me think you might be going a bit overboard. Less is more and all that. Sounds like you're working on it though. :)

Oh, yes. Good old Homer. I wonder how he and Odysseus would fair if they tried to come out in the current market? I imagine it would go something like this:
http://blog.nathanbransford.com/2009/08/guest-blog-week-re-your-query-for.html

He'd have to cut both the Iliad and the Odyssey down because a publisher wouldn't take a book that long from a beginning author ;)

Another thing I was telling Chaos that I like about first drafts is that I can just throw out every lame joke or one liner that comes to my head and gage the results. The Obi-Won line is obscure, but seems like a keeper (and to be honest, I threw that in at the last second, I never thought about putting that one there. But when I had Kail back up on that rock, it just came to me. The funny part of that scene was supposed to have been Kajsa just grabbing the Draken and snapping his neck.
I'll probably keep the Bill Clinton joke, but move it a little further into the chapter so that Kail seems a little less-jerkish.
Other things like using hawt are probably right out.

*Obi-Wan. Spell it right, silly.

I suppose I'm the only one who wants more Star Wars jokes...
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Re: Aug 4th - Erik Holmes - The Sword of Worlds - Chapter 13
« Reply #12 on: August 09, 2009, 12:55:47 AM »
No, Chaos... if there are to be Star Wars jokes, they are to be many and, most importantly, pertinent.  Like "princess."  ;D  The Obi-Wan line was actually a little too far fetched for the situation, I thought.  We don't know Kail well enough to know if he'd actually have the moral high ground.

Well, a lot's been said about dialogue, but I'm going to add my two cents.  (deep breath)  This is a fantasy setting.  Kail is from the modern world we all know and love/hate/endure/find amusing.  You could play up this contrast- which is, incidentally, what I think you're trying to do- by inserting well known ways of speaking i.e. 'gangsta', southern, slang, etc.  But!  For it to be effective, you need to call attention to the various absurdities in that.  Otherwise, these forays into modern lingo will only serve (and have served) to pull the reader OUT of the world you put them in.  Case in point: "hawt."  Also note that it will seriously date your novel in the future.

On to other things.  When describing what people are wearing, start at the outermost layer- Kajsa's leather vest, THEN her slivery, spun-moonlight shirt.  Otherwise the reader will have inescapable visions of one of those doll-maker programs where you click on an item and it 'pops' onto the model so you can see what it looks like.

It's weird that it wasn't until they got to the site of the Draken grave that they noticed footprints of Ellie's.  And I'd think Melia would be a little more stubborn about helping them find someone who's been killing trees (albeit unknowingly).  She does live in them, after all.

Good submission, though!  Looking forward to the ill-fated meeting to come!
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Chaos

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Re: Aug 4th - Erik Holmes - The Sword of Worlds - Chapter 13
« Reply #13 on: August 09, 2009, 02:11:07 AM »
We don't know Kail well enough to know if he'd actually have the moral high ground.

I thought the quote was referring to Obi-Wan physically having the high ground in Episode Three, which enabled him to beat Anakin. Not moral high ground (though he probably had the moral high ground, too, but that's not the point! :P).
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Re: Aug 4th - Erik Holmes - The Sword of Worlds - Chapter 13
« Reply #14 on: August 09, 2009, 02:36:10 AM »
Yeah, the most powerful Jedi of all time was defeated by a hill.  :|

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