Author Topic: **SPOILERS! The Shards of Adonalsium  (Read 75398 times)

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Re: **SPOILERS! The Shards of Adonalsium
« Reply #150 on: July 14, 2009, 06:20:18 AM »
Does anyone else think the pool shard might be Domi? Shu-Korath is based on love, and that part about the pool being like a parent's arms sounds like love to me.
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Chaos

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Re: **SPOILERS! The Shards of Adonalsium
« Reply #151 on: July 14, 2009, 06:25:24 AM »
I agree, the Pool is linked to the Dor. Now, more importantly, how is it linked to the Dor.

Occam's razor would indicate that the Pool is the Dor's Shard Pool.

I meant more in the sense that "What does the Dor's Shard pool do, in respect to its Shard?"

Does anyone else think the pool shard might be Domi? Shu-Korath is based on love, and that part about the pool being like a parent's arms sounds like love to me.

I'm exploring that possibility right now in my very extensive post I'm writing. It's 1500 words thus far.
« Last Edit: July 14, 2009, 06:27:24 AM by Chaos2651 »
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Re: **SPOILERS! The Shards of Adonalsium
« Reply #152 on: July 14, 2009, 06:31:00 AM »
When can we expect you to post?
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Re: **SPOILERS! The Shards of Adonalsium
« Reply #153 on: July 14, 2009, 06:31:55 AM »
I think that it is also very important to remember a previous theory from this board about Endowment. The Tears of Hallendren are very similar to Atium. They can only grow in that place, have an integral part in the magic system and provide the economy that Hallendren rests on. The proximity to the tears and their dyes could also affect Endowments ability to return people.

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Re: **SPOILERS! The Shards of Adonalsium
« Reply #154 on: July 14, 2009, 06:39:00 AM »
I think that it is also very important to remember a previous theory from this board about Endowment. The Tears of Hallendren are very similar to Atium. They can only grow in that place, have an integral part in the magic system and provide the economy that Hallendren rests on. The proximity to the tears and their dyes could also affect Endowments ability to return people.

Wait, where does it say the Tears of Hallendren are important to the Breath magic system?  I can only recall them being used as dyes.  And we have reports of Endowment returning people all over the world after it started to happen.

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Re: **SPOILERS! The Shards of Adonalsium
« Reply #155 on: July 14, 2009, 06:41:31 AM »
I remember those flowers have a name, but I can't remember what it is right now.
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Re: **SPOILERS! The Shards of Adonalsium
« Reply #156 on: July 14, 2009, 06:56:57 AM »
Tears of Edgli. I'm not sure that's the right spelling, but it starts with an "E" and sounds like something close to it! ;)

Certainly, Awakening requires Color on some level to work, so Endowment would want color so people could use its magic.

When can we expect you to post?

As soon as I'm done writing it! I'm known to be awfully wordy. The post is basically me "thinking aloud" about the Shards and their logic.
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Re: **SPOILERS! The Shards of Adonalsium
« Reply #157 on: July 14, 2009, 07:03:32 AM »
So then would that mean that the name of the consciousness behind Endowment is Edgli? I'm looking at it in reference to Ati/Atium and Leras/Lerasium. If so, where did the name Austre come from? Are there 2 different shards, but we only see one?
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Re: **SPOILERS! The Shards of Adonalsium
« Reply #158 on: July 14, 2009, 07:04:36 AM »
"Release" could be the name of the shard that's connected to the pool. The name fits with the other Shard names. "Dor" doesn't fit with the other names.
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Re: **SPOILERS! The Shards of Adonalsium
« Reply #159 on: July 14, 2009, 07:16:30 AM »
I figured maybe the shards on Opelon were Love and Obedience or something similar because the two gods we hear about in Elantris rely on love and obedience respectively.
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Chaos

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Re: **SPOILERS! The Shards of Adonalsium
« Reply #160 on: July 14, 2009, 07:22:45 AM »
"Release" could be the name of the shard that's connected to the pool. The name fits with the other Shard names. "Dor" doesn't fit with the other names.

I like it. The Dor does indeed release energy. Which sort of kills what I thought was the most poignant part of my 2500 word rant, but hey, I'll post it anyways.

--------------------

I hereby cue a drum roll! *drum roll* Thank you. You've all waited. You've all held your breath (maybe even your Breaths, in which case, I'll take them any time...). One has even asked me to take part in these discussions! Others have prayed that this day would never come, but alas, it has arrived at last. It is time for yet another Chaos Rant, the likes of which has not been since the pre-Hero of Ages day.

But enough of my drama, you want an extensively wordy theory, am I right? I've held off on really making a strong impression on this thread and the Hoid one until we have more information. We now have more information, so I feel like ranting.

Lo and behold, I unveil my Shards of Adonalsium theory. Theories, actually.

Since we're talking about the Shards other than Ruin and Preservation, I thought I'd post this again, just so we're all on the same page. That, and I wanted it as a reference:

Quote
Readers have met four shards other than Ruin and Preservation.
Have we met these four by name, or just by influence? I can't think of a name that would go with the one that the Elantris lake is a manifestation of.

Hoid could be one? I know nothing his purpose other than that he shows up in lots of different books, sometimes begging and sometimes telling stories. Since most of these series happen on different planets (though two of them may happen on the same planet as each other), I'm assuming he has mad planet-hopping skills.

...Nightblood...

Ookla, I'm going to be tight lipped on this, as I don't want to give things away for future books.  But I'll tell you this:

You've interacted with two directly.
One is a tough call.  You've never met the Shard itself, but you've seen its power. 
The other one you have not met directly, but have seen its influence.

(This is the exact quote from the MB3 Spoiler Thread)

Two direct interactions, one "tough call" that we have seen its power, and the last one which we have seen its influence. I'm going to assign these numbers, because I'm lazy that way. The two direct interactions are #1 and #2, respectively. The tough call is #3, and the influence one #4.

#1 is easy, thankfully! Endowment. By the way, Peter, I think Brandon is an evil genius for a Shard with this name. "Endowment" lends itself perfectly for a world where you are endowing (Awakening) things to life.

The others are much more challenging. The likely candidates: Hoid, the Dor, and Domi/Jaddeth. Let's get crackin'!

There are various possibilities of where each of these Shards go, whether they are 2, 3, or 4. They depend on a number of factors.

Does Brandon consider Hoid one of those four Shards he mentioned?

Tage said that it would be helpful to be immortal to hop around worlds like Hoid does. When you're bound to a Shard, that sort of implies immortality. One of Brandon's friends also said (perhaps Tage) that Hoid was bound to a Shard, last he knew.

I don't have any problem with Hoid holding a Shard. You may ask, "But Chaos, Hoid isn't very single-minded like Ruin, Preservation, or Endowment appear to be! I mean, he still has a name, not an abstract concept as his soul!" Right you are, voices inside my head! Perhaps it is a matter of how long one is bound to a given Shard, and a person begins to attune with the force so well that he/she becomes the Shard. Or maybe not--I sure as heck don't know how the Shards were created. I have a feeling this theory is on the right track, though. Compared with the original Shards, Midus (or is it Midius? I don't remember the Liar prologue) held onto his Shard a rather short time. He could retain his consciousness fairly effectively.

Again, maybe not. But if Hoid does hold a Shard, wouldn't it count to the Four? Likewise, we've talked to Hoid. Quite directly. If Brandon considers Hoid one of those four, and he holds a Shard, then Hoid is #2. We've talked to him. That's pretty direct.

Other Warbreaker Shards

Well, we have Endowment on Warbreaker's planet. There could be other Shards involved here, but Endowment fits so perfectly into Awakening, I can't think of any other Shards which would exist on its world. At least, not one which still exists during the events of Warbreaker.

(Random tangential theory time: Endowment was involved--in some way--to Nightblood's creation. Once, we are in Vasher's viewpoint, and he thinks about Nightblood's creation, "Even with a thousand Breaths, it shouldn't have been possible". Maybe Endowment made it possible. Or maybe Shashara was able to utilize Endowment's power directly...)

Still, we don't know the circumstances of the Warbreaker planet's creation. Other Shards could be involved, which would qualify it for #4. As it is, I have no evidence to believe this is true yet. We shall see.

The Shard that's gone

little_wilson asked this very interesting question to Brandon on the B&N Q&A, which got an enigmatic, but informative answer:

Quote
Q: I know you already said that there are four shards outside of Ati and Leras in your other books. Could you tell us the numbers per book? Is just a standard two per book? Or do some have more than others?

A: Some world have more than others.  You have seen the effects, influences, and work of four other Shards.  One Shard, however, was no longer on the world by the time the story was told there.

One Shard left the world it was on. Cool. Now it's up to us to figure out which one left (or at least, which world it left). If there are other Warbreaker Shards, as stated above, that would be an obvious candidate. There's no reason to believe that there are other Warbreaker Shards, especially when Opelon (since we don't know the planet name yet, I'm just going to refer to it as Opelon) has such rich--yet mostly unexplored--mythologies. With this current knowledge, I'm going to bet for a 2-2-1 Shard ratio. If Hoid counts, then he's one which is floating around. Two for Elantris, two for Mistborn, and one for Warbreaker.

Seems logical that #4 is the Shard that left. It has done some influencing, but it left the world before the story was told, therefore we've never met it directly.

How much of a "tough call" is #3?

This is a huge factor, as it directly relates to whether the Dor/Pool is #2, or #3. Those are the two possibilities I see for it now. If Hoid is out, then the Dor definitely needs to be #2. Now, a Shard spoke to Raoden. One would automatically say that this Shard is #2, because that's direct interaction. Yet... the words "tough call" make the line seem blurry.

For instance, we've seen many instances of the Dor's power (obviously) through Aons, Dahkor, and ChayShan. We have not, however, met the Shard directly, with exception of the Pool. It could be #3, but it's a very huge "maybe".

Final factor.

Are the Dor and the Pool the same Shard?

I'm tempted to say yes. I want to say yes. The answer is possibly no, however. If the answer is no, then that immediately relegates the Dor to #3, perhaps #4 if you feel like being especially technical (you could make a case for it, if the DorShard left a large reservoir of power for people to channel. It seems implausible to me, but hey, it's possible. Also, I'm going to use "DorShard" as the technical term for it, because it sounds more snazzy). More below.



Now that you've seen the factors that I'm taking into consideration, let's discuss placement and other interesting factoids.

Here's something especially interesting I found, looking back on the MB3 Spoiler thread:

Quote from: EUOL
So when a person is burning metals, they aren't using Preservation's body as a fuel so to speak--though they are tapping into the powers of creation just slightly.  When Vin burns the mists, however, she'd doing just that--using the essence of Preservation, the Shard of Adonalsium itself--to fuel Allomancy.  Doing this, however, rips 'troughs' through her body.  It's like forcing far too much pressure through a very small, fragile hose.  That much power eventually vaporizes the corporeal host, which is acting as the block and forcing the power into a single type of conduit (Allomancy) and frees it to be more expansive.

This explains why the physical bodies disappear, but there's something greater in Realmatics working here. The pool makes bodies vaporize, too.

I have no idea what this implies. My initial though is that the people who die there become more expansive entities, but that doesn't seem right. Instead, perhaps this Shard absorbs parts of the Physical Realm and Cognitive Realm (namely, humans--I suppose they have spiritual aspects, too) and place it into the DorShard's Spiritual Aspect. Maybe the DorShard is some weird Transformation Shard.

I don't know, I'm throwing random ideas out here that won't amount to anything. Whatever this Pool does, however, is intrinsically linked to its Shard's purpose. More investigation is required.

Two relevant quotes from that scene in Elantris:

Quote
The water held Raoden in a cool embrace. It was alive, he could hear it calling in his mind. Come, it said, I give you release. It was a comforting parent.It wanted to take away his pain and sorrows, just as his mother had once done.
 Come, it pled. You can finally give up.
No, Raoden thought. Not yet.

Okay, here's the talking part. It's quite difficult not to call this Shard #2, judging from this quote.

Quote
A vision sprang into Raoden's passive mind. He tried to ignore it. Yet, for some reason, it refused to leave. He save it through the shimmering surgace of his pain -- a simple picutre.
It was Aon Rao. A large square with four circles around it, lines connecting them to the center. It was a widely used Aon -- espeically among the Korathi -- for its meaning. Spirit. Soul. 
 Floating in the white eternity, Raoden's mind tried to discard the image of Aon Rao. It was something from a previous existance, unimportant and forgotten. He didn't need it any longer. Yet, even as he strove to remove the image, another sprung up in its place. 
 Elantris. Four walls forming a square. The four outer cities, currounding it, their border cricles. A straight road leading from each city to Elantris.
Mericiful Domi!

A couple of notes here: the Shard is putting Raoden into a passive state. Also, there's a link from the Korathi to the Soul, or Spiritual Realm--probably not significant on its own, but it could be worthy to note.

I think it is worthy to note that there could be two Shards at work in this scene. Why? Well... first of all, Ruin spoke to Vin when she was in the Well (Preservation's Shard Pool), so y'know, let's say there's a possibility there are two Shards at work. The Pool and the DorShard could be unrelated. I'm undecided about that, myself.

More importantly, Opelon has a god which really isn't explored well in Elantris: Jaddeth, or Domi. Both religions spawned from Shu-Keseg, so they could be the same mythological entity. (Maybe) I propose that this is a Shard.

Let's look at the Pool scene. We have one Shard, with a passive mindset, telling Raoden to give up. This is the Shard Pool's influence. But! Raoden received a vision of an Aon. It seems slightly contradictory to have one Shard telling Raoden to die, and then the other showing him an Aon. This is an interesting duality. One giving him a reason to live, the other wanting him to die. Passion/Tranquility, it could be called?

The DorShard would know how to operate its Aons. It seems very reasonable that the DorShard would be the thing to show Raoden this clue--after all, the vision "refused to leave" his mind. The DorShard would be placing this for him, I believe. It's pretty hard to ignore ;)

But, under this line of thought, the DorShard is calling Raoden to action, something... antithetical to what the Pool is doing. One could make a strong case that these are two completely different Shards at work here. Let us assume for a moment that this is true.

If so, then we have not interacted with the DorShard, but rather, whatever Shard the Pool belongs to. This makes the PoolShard #2, because we have interacted with it. Therefore, that makes the DorShard #3, because we've seen its influence a heck of a lot, but we haven't talked to it. Though, as Brandon points out, it is a very tough call. Let's assume that channeling the Dor doesn't count as "interacting". In that case, we have certainly seen the Dor's power a lot.

Hey, I actually kind of like this theory, splitting the DorShard and PoolShard. You don't have to believe me; I expect stiff opposition, because it really does seem like the Pool and the Dor should be linked. It's simpler. There's a likelihood, however, that there is more than one Shard on Opelon. Domi/Jaddeth (Peter, do you know what Shu-Keseg calls that deity? It would be really helpful to know) seem awfully separated from the Dor, simply on a mythological level. This does not suggest that Domi/Jaddeth are the same, but if anything, it suggests that there's another Shard on Opelon.

I found this very interesting Hrathen line when I was doing an Amazon LookInside search for "pool", because I wanted to find that Raoden scene (In case you're wondering, you can't access that particular section with Amazon's sample, which is good. Can't spoil the ending, eh?):

Quote
"Shu-Korath is docile and unassuming, priest," Hrathen said. "Shu-Dereth is vibrant and dynamic. It will sweep you away like a roaring flood rushing through a stagnant pool."

Passion/Tranquility dynamics, perhaps? If so, then maybe Shu-Korath and Shu-Dereth are two different Shards' manipulations on Keseg's teachings...

(I think we'll learn a lot more about Jaddeth and Fjordell in the Elantris sequel, which Brandon said has Kiin's children as viewpoint characters, who live in Fjordell)

So, in review:

1. Endowment. Obviously.
2. PoolShard. We talked to it (which, I believe, negates that Hoid factor I mentioned above).
3. DorShard. Seen plenty of its power, but haven't talked to it. If I were Brandon, I'd describe the Dor as a tough call as to whether we've interacted with it or not. The line is blurry.
4. And... well, I had a great idea for #4--the Shard which left its world--when I started this post, but looks like my stream-of-consciousness negated it. I was going to say that Domi/Jaddeth could have been a Shard (the same Shard), but then left. Someone mentioned that Hrathen said Jaddeth left and would come back sometime. If so, Jaddeth is #4. If this Passion/Tranquility thing checks out, then we've obviously missed a Shard somewhere.

We need a better name for Tranquility...
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Re: **SPOILERS! The Shards of Adonalsium
« Reply #161 on: July 14, 2009, 07:43:30 AM »
Shu-Dereth says that Jaddeth is sleeping beneath the earth, and that he will rise only when all men are obedient to him. I'm afraid I have to disagree with Domi and Jaddeth being one shard. I don't think one shard could fuel 3 different types of magic.
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Re: **SPOILERS! The Shards of Adonalsium
« Reply #162 on: July 14, 2009, 07:49:12 AM »
Endowment isn't obvious at all for #1, where did we ever interact with it to the level of Hoid or the Pool Shard?  Furthermore, "Release", the name Ookla proposed for the Pool Shard, could be quite easily interpreted to apply to the Dor's activities as well.   As to Raoden noticing Aeon Rao in Elantris, why couldn't he have figured it out on his own?  IIRC, he was looking at Elantris from a mountaintop at the time.


And why did you drop Hoid?  Last I checked Vin and Saze didn't notice a spaceship in their solar system when they were in Shardmode.  Without a Space Ship, Shardhood is pretty much the only way I can think of for Hoid to cross interstellar distances.


@Inquisitor, why not?  Preservation fuels at least 16 magics.  More if you consider him a joint fueler of Feruchemy.

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Re: **SPOILERS! The Shards of Adonalsium
« Reply #163 on: July 14, 2009, 07:54:48 AM »
Shu-Dereth says that Jaddeth is sleeping beneath the earth, and that he will rise only when all men are obedient to him. I'm afraid I have to disagree with Domi and Jaddeth being one shard. I don't think one shard could fuel 3 different types of magic.

They are based off of the same religion, which was my logic.

I always assumed those three magic types were all Dor-based. Jaddeth (or Domi) need not be the same thing as the Dor.

Endowment isn't obvious at all for #1, where did we ever interact with it to the level of Hoid or the Pool Shard?  Furthermore, "Release", the name Ookla proposed for the Pool Shard, could be quite easily interpreted to apply to the Dor's activities as well.   As to Raoden noticing Aeon Rao in Elantris, why couldn't he have figured it out on his own?  IIRC, he was looking at Elantris from a mountaintop at the time.


And why did you drop Hoid?  Last I checked Vin and Saze didn't notice a spaceship in their solar system when they were in Shardmode.  Without a Space Ship, Shardhood is pretty much the only way I can think of for Hoid to cross interstellar distances.


@Inquisitor, why not?  Preservation fuels at least 16 magics.  More if you consider him a joint fueler of Feruchemy.

Lightsong interacted with Endowment. Brandon thought it was obvious enough to give that Shard a name.

Raoden could have figured it out on its own, but that image seemed pretty persistent to show him a picture of Rao...

I definitely do like Ookla's name of Release, which makes a lot of sense. I had already typed that up before Ookla posted that, though.

I just didn't know where to fit Hoid in that scenario, that's all.
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Re: **SPOILERS! The Shards of Adonalsium
« Reply #164 on: July 14, 2009, 08:03:11 AM »
I lumped all of those powers together because Allomancy only does one thing. It allows the allomancer to burn metals. The different metals are what allow for a diverse selection of powers. And I don't really see preservation and ruin jointly fueling feruchemy, I see it as a natural balance between the two.
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