Author Topic: **SPOILERS! The Shards of Adonalsium  (Read 29711 times)

DataPath

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Re: **SPOILERS! The Shards of Adonalsium
« Reply #30 on: January 16, 2009, 09:52:29 PM »
Is the Dor the only confirmed supernatural power in the world?

What power made the monks in to 'demons'?

Occam's razor would suggest that the Dor is the logical place to start.  All of the known supernatural enhancements (Dahkor monks, Elantrians, Shuden's exercise) cause the one wielding the power to glow, the Elantrian's permanently, the monks and Shuden when they are using their power.  This seems to be a property of the Dor, especially from Raoden's experience.  How the monks change themselves to be able to access it is a fair question, but it seems to me, at least, that the Dor somehow being receptive to the chants being used is as good an explanation as any.  It could just naturally be one way how humans in Opelon access power.


I thought that the Dor might cause the Dahkor monks and Clayshin, but then I realized that the Opelon magic is like the Scadrial magic.
You have Allomancy and Aons, that both get energy out of nowhere, you have Clayshin and Ferchemancy which draw energy from the user, and Hemalurgy and the Dahkor monks draw their energy out of someone else.

Allomancy comes from Leras/Preservation
Aons come from Dor/Domi?/Pool God?

Ferchemy is natural
ClayShin is natural?

Hemalurgy comes from Ati/Ruin
"Bone bending" comes from Jaddeth?

I think that the shining thing on Opelon is like how all the magic on Scadrial involved Metal.

Zas

They are similar in some ways.  However, there are also similarities between the magics in Opelon that you are glossing over, and some of the analogies with Mistborn are definitely strained.  For instance, the Dahkor monks bones are made out of symbols---symbols from the ancient Fjorrel alphabet.  Just like Aons are from Arelon's alphabet.  They are both alphabetic systems, which produce enhanced humans.  All enhanced humans remain enhanced at all times with no need for extra power, no known source beyond the Dor.  And IIRC we don't know that all Dahkor monks require human sacrifice to be produced.  Some effects are produced via human sacrifice, but others appear not to be.

ClayShin requires a human to concentrate, but the power does not seem to come from themselves.  The one time we have seen it used, it seemed as though it could be used indefinitely as long as the user didn't loose focus.  It seems more  like channeling the Dor than anything else.

Or at least, without more information, that theory is consistent.  It also requires fewer entities and less complications.

Also, I would find the analogies repetitive myself.  Different ways of accessing the same power sounds like a more useful device for Elantris.

One concept that Brandon really likes and uses somewhat frequently is that of the physical, cognitive, and spiritual aspects of things.

AonDor seems to be cognitive, requiring careful study and concentration to access.

ClayShin appears to be spiritual, bringing oneself into harmony to access the Dor.

The Jaddeth one appears to be physical.


Peter Ahlstrom

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Re: **SPOILERS! The Shards of Adonalsium
« Reply #31 on: January 16, 2009, 10:17:24 PM »
I'll buy that.
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happyman

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Re: **SPOILERS! The Shards of Adonalsium
« Reply #32 on: January 18, 2009, 11:27:40 PM »
The idea fits much better with what we know of the world.  Different ways of accessing the power based on different aspects of the Dor---that makes sense.
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Zhalfirin

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Re: **SPOILERS! The Shards of Adonalsium
« Reply #33 on: February 28, 2009, 05:56:41 AM »
Unless future books dealing with Shards include space travel, this probably matters very little.  I mean he could invent a magic which allows for dimmensional travel, or not.  But I've never heard of a magic system which allows for travel across worlds.  So this really only matters when pondering how sci-fi he wants to get in the future.

There has been a magic system that allows for travel between worlds, the Planeswalkers in Magic: The Gathering, which Brandon is familiar with (as he has played the card game).

Eleaneth

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Re: **SPOILERS! The Shards of Adonalsium
« Reply #34 on: March 09, 2009, 09:19:09 PM »
I think that Alcatraz is in the universe of Adonalsium. Here's why: when Alcatraz finds the Smedry talent chart presumably drawn by Alcatraz Smedry the First, it has two largely unexplained names on it: Identity and Possibility. Identity is represented by the Librarians, who want everything to stay the same. Possibility might be represented by the Smedrys, who find ways to use ridiculous talents in beautiful ways. Alcatraz the First's tomb even makes a comment about how the ancients tried to call down the power of divinity or of creation. (This is all in the second book.)

Anyway, I think that Identity and Possibility are the two shards that came to Alcatraz's planet (or ours. :) ), and that their battle is similar to Preservation vs. Ruin, except that Identity wants absolute, predictable sameness, and Possibility wants growth and humor. Maybe Possibility was a girl shard and Preservation was in love with her. :D That would definitely explain why Preservation had such insight into the possibilities of creating sentient life and eventually one person--the Hero of Ages, Sazed--with both the powers of Preservation and of Ruin.

It's also interesting that just like Allomancy draws on the power of creation, so, apparently, do the Smedry talents.

I think that the Shards we have encountered are Identity, Possibility, Preservation, Ruin, the Dor, and the opposite of the Dor (the "water" that dissolved Elantrians). I don't think we've seen the Warbreaker shards, if they exist, yet.

I also think that there are 16 shards total, structured similarly to the Allomantic table. There are a lot of hints in Hero of Ages about how the number 16 is somehow associated with the fundamental structure of the universe.
"Yes," Elend said softly. "The law allows for you to change your vote, Lord Habren. You may only do so once, and must do so before the winner is declared. Everyone else has the same opportunity."
-- The Well of Ascension

Cosmic_AC

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Re: **SPOILERS! The Shards of Adonalsium
« Reply #35 on: March 10, 2009, 09:05:50 AM »
Quote from: Eleaneth
Anyway, I think that Identity and Possibility are the two shards that came to Alcatraz's planet (or ours. Smiley ), and that their battle is similar to Preservation vs. Ruin, except that Identity wants absolute, predictable sameness, and Possibility wants growth and humor. Maybe Possibility was a girl shard and Preservation was in love with her.  :D That would definitely explain why Preservation had such insight into the possibilities of creating sentient life and eventually one person--the Hero of Ages, Sazed--with both the powers of Preservation and of Ruin.
Um, I really don't see how that explains anything.  It's not written in stone that there are exactly two Shards for every world, and they don't necessarily fight each other.  IMO, there is no "anti-Dor" in Elantris; the water Elantrians dissolve in is part of the Dor as well.  If there is a malevolent Shard in Elantris, it's probably Jaddeth.

At least one of the Shards in Warbreaker (if there are more than one) clearly has the power to bring people back from the Afterlife -- and give them visions of the future.  Sazed hinted that he might eventually gain this power too.  Is it possible that the Warbreaker world is what Scadrial will be like with just one God watching over everybody?

Quote from: Eleaneth
I also think that there are 16 shards total, structured similarly to the Allomantic table. There are a lot of hints in Hero of Ages about how the number 16 is somehow associated with the fundamental structure of the universe.
It's certainly possible.  Although that would severely limit the number of series Mr. Sanderson would be able to work into his universe -- and if he decides that Alcatraz and Scribbler are Adonalsium worlds, he probably only has three or four more worlds left to build.  Surely he wouldn't be that quick to put himself out of business.
« Last Edit: March 10, 2009, 09:07:24 AM by Cosmic_AC »

happyman

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Re: **SPOILERS! The Shards of Adonalsium
« Reply #36 on: March 10, 2009, 05:06:37 PM »
Quote
Quote from: Eleaneth
I also think that there are 16 shards total, structured similarly to the Allomantic table. There are a lot of hints in Hero of Ages about how the number 16 is somehow associated with the fundamental structure of the universe.
It's certainly possible.  Although that would severely limit the number of series Mr. Sanderson would be able to work into his universe -- and if he decides that Alcatraz and Scribbler are Adonalsium worlds, he probably only has three or four more worlds left to build.  Surely he wouldn't be that quick to put himself out of business.

I've speculated that there are 16 shards as well.  It fits with what Sazed says.

However, it is just as possible that we have 16 shards of 16 shards.  That would keep Brandon in business for the foreseeable future.

Or he could, you know, have 16 shards and then try something completely different.
« Last Edit: March 11, 2009, 01:16:04 AM by happyman »
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Rrikor

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Re: **SPOILERS! The Shards of Adonalsium
« Reply #37 on: March 10, 2009, 05:11:33 PM »
I don't think we have to worry about keeping brandon busy.  With way of king being 10 books that right there is 10 years worth of work at least. Throw in another mistborn trilogy, possible Elantris book, another warbreaker book, and doing something with the scribbler and we still have alot to see from him.  That doesn't include any of the worlds that the other shards exist on.

Eleaneth

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Re: **SPOILERS! The Shards of Adonalsium
« Reply #38 on: March 10, 2009, 05:40:27 PM »
Yeah, he's certainly clever enough to think up plenty of new ideas. I mean, look at how many beautiful worlds and creative magic systems he's already developed... the colors of Warbreaker, the metals of Mistborn, the Dor of Elantris, and the silimatics and Smedry talents of Alcatraz. I've never read another author who rivals him in the building of "magic" systems.

Edit: Although, I do think that the Dor and the Elantris Pool are opposites... They're too different. It's like the Dor is Energy and the Pool is Rest, or something like that.

Another idea: The shards might be organized based on the Spiritual, Cognitive, and Physical realms. The powers of Preservation and Ruin are very physical-world based. On their world, metal is power. Metal glows so brightly they can't even look too closely at it. Metal is very physical. In contrast, they can't read minds, and they can only touch minds with difficulty (unless, for example, the person has metal embedded in them, in which case Ruin can touch them more easily). The Warbreaker powers seem to be more spiritual to me, and the Elantris powers seem more cognitive (it takes great precision to use the Dor at all, either through AonDor, the ClayShen form, or for the Derethi monk-demons). Alcatraz's powers also seem Cognitive to me.

I guess we'll have to wait and see. :)
« Last Edit: March 10, 2009, 05:58:23 PM by Eleaneth »
"Yes," Elend said softly. "The law allows for you to change your vote, Lord Habren. You may only do so once, and must do so before the winner is declared. Everyone else has the same opportunity."
-- The Well of Ascension

Peter Ahlstrom

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Re: **SPOILERS! The Shards of Adonalsium
« Reply #39 on: March 10, 2009, 06:45:55 PM »
Is it possible that the Warbreaker world is what Scadrial will be like with just one God watching over everybody?

That idea doesn't work with Brandon's plans for the two future Mistborn trilogies. Or wait, you're not saying the Warbreaker world is Scadrial's future, but just similar to it? I'm not seeing what about it would be what Scadrial's future would be with just one god, because Scadrial would have no reason to have Returned or Awakening. Sazed's statements about bringing people back from the dead don't indicate a process like Returning but just a standard resurrection process. Scadrial's magic system will continue to be metals-based.
« Last Edit: March 10, 2009, 06:48:10 PM by Ookla The Mok »
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happyman

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Re: **SPOILERS! The Shards of Adonalsium
« Reply #40 on: March 11, 2009, 01:18:44 AM »
Edit: Although, I do think that the Dor and the Elantris Pool are opposites... They're too different. It's like the Dor is Energy and the Pool is Rest, or something like that.

They could be different aspects of the same shard.  In that sense, they would be opposites as well.

Of course, even if we have two shards, that doesn't mean they are fighting.
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Peter Ahlstrom

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Re: **SPOILERS! The Shards of Adonalsium
« Reply #41 on: March 11, 2009, 02:30:18 AM »
Dragonsteel Prime had two people with shards working together, and at least one shard working against them.
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Patriotic Kaz

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Re: **SPOILERS! The Shards of Adonalsium
« Reply #42 on: March 11, 2009, 04:38:24 PM »
I'm pretty sure we have only seen one shard's influence on Elantris and if there is another one it is sleeping. What I'm curious about is the royal blood of Idris how are they decendants of returned is that another shards influence? also Warbreaker's world isn't really well known same with mistborn we only know a limited area the two nations and on Scardriel we only have seen one pole...
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Eleaneth

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Re: **SPOILERS! The Shards of Adonalsium
« Reply #43 on: March 12, 2009, 07:15:20 AM »
Quote
I'm pretty sure we have only seen one shard's influence on Elantris and if there is another one it is sleeping.

Actually, I really like the sleeping shard idea... especially if it's the shard of Rest or Peace or something like that. So much more to find out!
"Yes," Elend said softly. "The law allows for you to change your vote, Lord Habren. You may only do so once, and must do so before the winner is declared. Everyone else has the same opportunity."
-- The Well of Ascension

Patriotic Kaz

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Re: **SPOILERS! The Shards of Adonalsium
« Reply #44 on: March 12, 2009, 05:12:26 PM »
It wouldn't surprise me if there was a sleeping shard on any of the planets... i mean even Sazed duking it out on a higher plane wouldn't shock me too much (though I don't think that will happen). :-*
"Words are double edged blades. Only the great and the foolish play with knives." - Kaz the Buddah

"Take off your sandals, for you are posting on holy ground." -  Yahweh Kaz

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