**SPOILERS! The Shards of Adonalsium

[Red, White, and Joker]

Well, Mr. J is relying somewhat on unstated but true properties of the ordinal numbers that emphatically do not apply to poorly defined sets.

Certainly.  Mathematical concepts are far more defined than philosophical concepts but the formula appears in both systems.  I think I've been trained to think in the philosophical sense, having been subjected to quite similar conversations on a weekly basis previously. 

All that time spent in calculus and I can't even make a point with math without everyone busting my chops? I know full well that while all mackerel are fish, not all fish are mackerel, but I was referring to numbers, not ways to get around.

I do officially support the theory that EUOL = HOID tho.

[Chaos]

We need the powers of the Hero of Ages!

Someone find Chaos to save us from this . . . Chaos.

I'm on it.

[Morderkaine]

However, he [Ruin] is a force given sentience—or, rather, sentience that has attached itself to a force. Regardless, that force drives him and dominates him.

I can't help but feel that there is a lot of significance in those couple sentences. I can't for life of me figure out what it might be right now, but I just know it's there.

[happyman]

However, he [Ruin] is a force given sentience—or, rather, sentience that has attached itself to a force. Regardless, that force drives him and dominates him.

I can't help but feel that there is a lot of significance in those couple sentences. I can't for life of me figure out what it might be right now, but I just know it's there.

Well, it strongly suggests that Ati was actually a person with his own goals and personality before absorbing the power of Ruin and being driven and dominated by it.  This has already been strongly implied by, among other things, the fact that he had a body with definite characteristics; this quote from Brandon is extra evidence.

[Fireborn]

I have a couple of things I'd like to point out concerning various opinions expressed on this thread.

I don't think Hoid is a shard.  Why?  Cuz he still has a physical body.  When Vin became a shard, her body vanished, so if Hoid is a shard why hasn't this happened to him?

I also don't think that the Elantris pool and the Dor are different shards.  Everyone is basing the intentions of the pool on a full two sentences, which can hardly be used to assume all of it's intentions.  But the point still stands: why would the pool offer Raoden rest if he was the only one who could fix the Spirit of Elantris?  Simple: choice.  He gave Raoden a way out of his pain, something so overwhelming as to make him hoed.  He would not be a benevolent god without giving him that option, in my opinion.  And it is a triumph of Raoden's character that he did the right thing, not the easy thing.

[Hibron]

But the Dor is described several times as a massive, unthinking force that is trying to push out of a space that is way to small for it. 

[doode999]

I don't think Hoid is a shard.  Why?  Cuz he still has a physical body.  When Vin became a shard, her body vanished, so if Hoid is a shard why hasn't this happened to him?

I agree that Hoid isn't a shard, but I am almost certain that he uses a shard. Lightweaving.

[happyman]

I also don't think that the Elantris pool and the Dor are different shards.  Everyone is basing the intentions of the pool on a full two sentences, which can hardly be used to assume all of it's intentions.  But the point still stands: why would the pool offer Raoden rest if he was the only one who could fix the Spirit of Elantris?  Simple: choice.  He gave Raoden a way out of his pain, something so overwhelming as to make him hoed.  He would not be a benevolent god without giving him that option, in my opinion.  And it is a triumph of Raoden's character that he did the right thing, not the easy thing.

I generally agree with this, but think it may be more complex.  It's perfectly possible that the Dor and the pool are aspects of the same shard.  The key word is aspects.  We have seen that the parts (for lack of a better word) of a shard can be quite distinct and split; shards are very large, in some sense of the term.  There's no reason to assume that different aspects of the same shard will always agree with each other, especially if they were created/split/separated for different reasons.

[Rezo]

But the Dor is described several times as a massive, unthinking force that is trying to push out of a space that is way to small for it. 

That gave me an idea. What if this Shard is, like Ruin or Preservation, made of force and a mind, but if the mind can't handle the power? Like, it wants to keep it inside the planet, but it's still leaking out?
And another speculation out of this one...
Maybe the pool is made by this mind to make the Dor go back to the planet? It destroys the body, then forces the Dor connected to it back inside.

[zas678]

Except that it is heavily suspected(possibly slightly confirmed) that every Shard has a Pool with Dragonsteel ( I believe that's the term?) in it [Never mind! See Peter's post below]. Maybe this one has a special purpose. Maybe all of them have a special purpose. Isn't speculation wonderful?

Edit- Put a line through my incorrect information.

[Peter Ahlstrom]

Where did you get the idea that every shard has a pool with Dragonsteel in it? I haven't heard that one before and highly doubt it.

[Fireborn]

Yeah, Dragonsteel is, I think, a one world, magic related substance.  Whereas, now I may be wrong on this, the pools in the other books are the liquid form of a Shard's power.  The WoA was where Preservation put the energies used to bind Ruin, yes?
If I have this wrong, feel free to tell me.

[Miyabi]

Hmmmmmm.  I want to support Zas' idea, but am torn between wondering if Peter is being honest or if it's on of them there red herring moves he enjoys so much.

I do like the idea Zas.

[Peter Ahlstrom]

I think Dragonsteel is like the liquid in the Well--I think it is the liquid form of a Shard. But only of one particular Shard. And this is just a theory of mine.

[Comatose]

1. Ok... I'm gonna bring it up again: the tears of edgli.
I think they are the body of Endowment.  Just as the bodies of shards (lerasium and atium) are the ultimate weapons of allomancers, the tears of edgli provide the greatest colour, and thus best fuel, for the awakeners.

2. The Dor and the pool are opposing shards.  The dor is the the one that left (it's conciousness anyway).  I think the earthquake might have been caused bythe shard leaving (or being banished?).  We already have a link (although a tenuous (sp?) one) between earthquakes and shards with ruin.  Perhaps there is osme truth to the Jaddeth myth, but in reality, he and domi are jsut representations of God.
I should point out AonDor and Dor are different things.  Dor is a force (or shard).  aonDor is a magic system or interpretation of Dor's power (like allomancy is of prevervation) as is the Fjordell monks and Clay-shan (sp?).

3.  I don't think Hoid is one of the shards brandon is talking about.  The only evidence we have of him being a shard in the published works is his world hopping abilities.  I posted in the hoid topic that I think Hoid may be the conciousness that has split off from the shards, mirroring what happened, on a smaller scale, to preservation.