Author Topic: Magic System compare/contrast  (Read 3139 times)

Technomancer

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Magic System compare/contrast
« on: August 01, 2009, 08:38:31 PM »
With the ultimate Brandon Sanderson thread going on, I thought maybe something a little more abstract was in order.  Brandon has currently touched on five or six different magic systems in his published works.  These systems would be:
Aon Dor
The Fjordell version of Aon Dor (It had different efects and used Fjordell symbols in place of Aonic ones)  This was used by the Dakhor monks.
Allomancy
Ferchemy
Hemalugy
Awakening

The goal of this thread is to compare and contrast the workings of each system, discern each systems pros and cons, and speculate on what would happen if the systems of different worlds ineracted.
« Last Edit: August 01, 2009, 11:12:39 PM by Technomancer »

douglas

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Re: Magic System compare/contrast
« Reply #1 on: August 01, 2009, 10:07:16 PM »
Aon Dor in any version is hard to assess because we have so little information on its full capabilities.  It can trivialize military logistics, teleport, heal, and create long lasting illusions and light sources.  In combat, it can blast and create barriers but we know virtually nothing else except that it is severely handicapped by the time required to draw precise and complex shapes in the air.  Its direct in combat power depends very much on how much drawing speed can be improved without sacrificing correctness and power, and on how powerful and varied advance preparations can be.

Any serious comparison between combat potential of Aon Dor in the hands of a truly knowledgeable and practiced user and someone using any of the other magic systems is not possible at this point due to insufficient information.

Allomancy is powerful and directly applicable to combat, is simple, and is fueled by an external source that is easy to acquire large quantities of (excepting the god metals).  Its simplicity is also a drawback, however, as the variety and power of the effects possible is strictly limited.

Feruchemy is, ultimately, more powerful than allomancy with respect to combat.  The reliance on long periods of down time to build up storage in your metalminds is a huge handicap, though, and while it lacks allomancy's limits on the amount of power used at any given moment, it shares allomancy's limited number of effects.

Hemalurgy's power varies a great deal depending on the user's knowledge, ethics, and available victims.  Given someone with Ruin's full knowledge, a complete lack of morals, and a large supply of metals, allomancers, feruchemists, and normal people, a hemalurgist could easily trump anyone in any of these magic systems with the sole exception of a natural mistborn/feruchemist like the Lord Ruler.  Even there, it depends on relative strength and experience in the two magic systems, and stealing more mundane traits as well as magical powers might tip the balance to the hemalurgist.  Depending on the factors listed, hemalurgists cover the whole range from that all the way down to normal humans.

Awakening is all about advance preparation, the ability to acquire large quantities of a particular scarce resource, and knowledge of the Commands.  A sufficiently knowledgeable Awakener with the 10th heightening and lots of time might be able to beat a top end hemalurgist.  Maybe.  If he knows what's coming or is exceptionally paranoid.  He could probably beat anything else the other magic systems can produce, though, through sheer numbers of Lifeless if nothing else.  Like hemalurgy, the power range extends from this all the way down to normal humans.  It has a lot more out of combat utility than any of the Metallic Arts, though, but I think Aon Dor is better there.

Technomancer

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Re: Magic System compare/contrast
« Reply #2 on: August 01, 2009, 11:28:54 PM »
First of all I want to thank Douglas for getting this discussion rolling.  Now I will add my own thoughts into this

Quote
Aon Dor in any version is hard to assess because we have so little information on its full capabilities.  It can trivialize military logistics, teleport, heal, and create long lasting illusions and light sources.  In combat, it can blast and create barriers but we know virtually nothing else except that it is severely handicapped by the time required to draw precise and complex shapes in the air.  Its direct in combat power depends very much on how much drawing speed can be improved without sacrificing correctness and power, and on how powerful and varied advance preparations can be.

Any serious comparison between combat potential of Aon Dor in the hands of a truly knowledgeable and practiced user and someone using any of the other magic systems is not possible at this point due to insufficient information.

True, we have very little information on Aon Dor but I believe it's safe to assume that Elantrian Aon Dor is by far the most versatile magic system to date.  However it has several key drawbacks.  The biggest one being the need for perfection in drawing Aons.  A mistake stops the drawing process completely.  I'm willing to bet Aons would be had to draw while dodging or moving so if manage to get an Elantrian on the defensive to the point where they have to move they're going to be in trouble.

The Fjordell Aon Dor thing used by the Dakhor monks was as a recall more combat savy but I can't recall the details at the moment.

Quote
Allomancy is powerful and directly applicable to combat, is simple, and is fueled by an external source that is easy to acquire large quantities of (excepting the god metals).  Its simplicity is also a drawback, however, as the variety and power of the effects possible is strictly limited.

On this I agree whole-heartedly.

Quote
Feruchemy is, ultimately, more powerful than allomancy with respect to combat.  The reliance on long periods of down time to build up storage in your metalminds is a huge handicap, though, and while it lacks allomancy's limits on the amount of power used at any given moment, it shares allomancy's limited number of effects.

True but remember some attributes, such as speed are harder to store.

Quote
Hemalurgy's power varies a great deal depending on the user's knowledge, ethics, and available victims.  Given someone with Ruin's full knowledge, a complete lack of morals, and a large supply of metals, allomancers, feruchemists, and normal people, a hemalurgist could easily trump anyone in any of these magic systems with the sole exception of a natural mistborn/feruchemist like the Lord Ruler.  Even there, it depends on relative strength and experience in the two magic systems, and stealing more mundane traits as well as magical powers might tip the balance to the hemalurgist.  Depending on the factors listed, hemalurgists cover the whole range from that all the way down to normal humans.
  Yes having access to Allomantic and Feruchemical power is a plus but these powers are weakened through the Law of Hemalurgic decay.  To say it's out and out better than Allomancy and Ferchemy is a strech skill Mistborn and Ferchemists have bot fought Inquistors evenly.

Quote
Awakening is all about advance preparation, the ability to acquire large quantities of a particular scarce resource, and knowledge of the Commands.  A sufficiently knowledgeable Awakener with the 10th heightening and lots of time might be able to beat a top end hemalurgist.  Maybe.  If he knows what's coming or is exceptionally paranoid.  He could probably beat anything else the other magic systems can produce, though, through sheer numbers of Lifeless if nothing else.  Like hemalurgy, the power range extends from this all the way down to normal humans.  It has a lot more out of combat utility than any of the Metallic Arts, though, but I think Aon Dor is better there.

Breath itself is not a scarce resource, every human has it.   Unlike Allomancy and Ferchemy the resource used can be called back (Unless used in a Lifeless.) and it can do more abstract things.  At the Sixth heightening they can Awaken things in the sound of their voice like say, a mistcloak, wit the right amount of strength however this can be countered.  At the Eighth Heightining  they can awakenn metal and stone provided they know the commands, this screw over Feruchemists and Steel Inquistors.  Although, awakening metal and stone takes a lot of Breath.  As for winning through number of Lifeless, it appers you've forgotten the koloss.

douglas

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Re: Magic System compare/contrast
« Reply #3 on: August 02, 2009, 01:07:48 AM »
True but remember some attributes, such as speed are harder to store.

Maybe, but once the storing is done, the potential for combat power is very high.

Yes having access to Allomantic and Feruchemical power is a plus but these powers are weakened through the Law of Hemalurgic decay.  To say it's out and out better than Allomancy and Ferchemy is a strech skill Mistborn and Ferchemists have bot fought Inquistors evenly.

Inquisitors yes, but Inquisitors are rather far short of the top end of hemalurgic power.  They had all the allomantic powers, yes, but I don't think they're ever shown using any of the feruchemical powers except gold for health until Hero of Ages.  Even in HoA, they never use the true potential of combining allomancy and feruchemy in the way Rashek did.  Storing a feruchemical attribute in a metal and then burning that metal with allomancy multiplies the stored power by a HUGE factor, enough that the Lord Ruler was able to turn the normal 1-to-1 storage and return ratio into a positive gain big enough to reduce his age by about 1000 years nonstop indefinitely, and fully expected to be able to keep that up for a great deal longer.  Yes, the individual allomantic and feruchemical powers would be substantially weaker, but nowhere near enough to counter the increase for having the combination and using it to its full potential.

Hemalurgic Thug = half strength natural Thug
Hemalurgic pewter feruchemist = half strength natural pewter feruchemist
Hemalurgist burning his own pewtermind = quintuple strength Thug and feruchemist put together
The Lord Ruler burning his own pewtermind = 10 times normal Thug and feruchemist put together

Yes, I'm just making up the numbers here, but you get the idea, and I actually think all of those numbers are rather low.

And then you get things like this (again, actual numbers drawn from thin air):
1) Hemalurgist's normal strength is 1.
2) Hemalurgist burns normal pewter, increasing strength to 2.
3) Hemalurgist stores strength in pewtermind, decreasing strength back to 1 and storing strength at 1.  I remember EUOL stating that storing more than about 20% of your strength normally was hazardous because of how much you need just to stay alive, keep your heart pumping, etc.  This is already 5 times that, and can be drawn back at that rate without spending any on compounding it.
4) Hemalurgist burns pewtermind, increasing strength by 5, to 6.
5) Hemalurgist stores strength in new pewtermind, decreasing strength back to 1 and storing strength at 5.
6) Hemalurgist burns pewtermind, increasing strength by 25, to 26.
7) etc.
8) Hemalurgist fights someone, taps or burns pewtermind to gain strength over 9000, and sends his opponent into orbit with a light tap from one pinky.

Rashek did stuff like this.  It's how he stayed young for 1000 years, and how he killed entire armies of rebels all by himself.  No one else even had the ability to do so until Hero of Ages when Ruin took over the Inquisitors and killed the Keepers, and even if Ruin had them try it, they didn't have the time to get much experience at it or build up truly impressive reserves.  Yes, Rashek's allomancy and feruchemy was natural and therefore stronger, but that's why he's the one thing I said actually could beat a top end hemalurgist besides a top end Awakener who knows what's coming and is prepared for it.  Yes, Rashek himself got beaten by a mere mistborn, but only because Vin was Preservation's chosen successor and therefore could draw on the mists for power.  Without that quite unique advantage, which itself is not really part of the magic system in my opinion, she would have had no chance at all.

Breath itself is not a scarce resource, every human has it.

Every human has exactly one Breath.  You need hundreds to do anything really significant, and tens of thousands to reach the system's potential.  That is most definitely scarce.

Unlike Allomancy and Ferchemy the resource used can be called back (Unless used in a Lifeless.) and it can do more abstract things.  At the Sixth heightening they can Awaken things in the sound of their voice like say, a mistcloak, wit the right amount of strength however this can be countered.

That power comes at the ninth heightening.

At the Eighth Heightining  they can awakenn metal and stone provided they know the commands, this screw over Feruchemists and Steel Inquistors.  Although, awakening metal and stone takes a lot of Breath.

This is also a ninth heightening power.  You need to convince 20000 people to willingly give you their Breath in order to get to that point, and that's not easy no matter how you look at it.  Sure, you can reduce that number by getting people who have multiple Breaths themselves to give theirs to you, but anyone who's gathered a significant number of Breaths is going to be a LOT harder to convince.

As for winning through number of Lifeless, it appers you've forgotten the koloss.

True, though that's another point in favor of top end hemalurgists beating everyone.

Aranfan

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Re: Magic System compare/contrast
« Reply #4 on: August 02, 2009, 01:26:06 AM »
On the Lifeless vs Koloss, Lifeless needs one corpse and one person with breath and you get two fighters, Koloss needs three live humans and you end with one superhuman fighter.

douglas

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Re: Magic System compare/contrast
« Reply #5 on: August 02, 2009, 01:35:51 AM »
I thought Koloss had five spikes, which would require six people (5 killed for the spikes, 1 to put the spikes in).  My memory on where this was mentioned is vague enough that I don't want to look it up, though.

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Re: Magic System compare/contrast
« Reply #6 on: August 02, 2009, 01:41:10 AM »
True but remember some attributes, such as speed are harder to store.

Maybe, but once the storing is done, the potential for combat power is very high.

Yes having access to Allomantic and Feruchemical power is a plus but these powers are weakened through the Law of Hemalurgic decay.  To say it's out and out better than Allomancy and Ferchemy is a strech skill Mistborn and Ferchemists have bot fought Inquistors evenly.

Inquisitors yes, but Inquisitors are rather far short of the top end of hemalurgic power.  They had all the allomantic powers, yes, but I don't think they're ever shown using any of the feruchemical powers except gold for health until Hero of Ages.  Even in HoA, they never use the true potential of combining allomancy and feruchemy in the way Rashek did.  Storing a feruchemical attribute in a metal and then burning that metal with allomancy multiplies the stored power by a HUGE factor, enough that the Lord Ruler was able to turn the normal 1-to-1 storage and return ratio into a positive gain big enough to reduce his age by about 1000 years nonstop indefinitely, and fully expected to be able to keep that up for a great deal longer.  Yes, the individual allomantic and feruchemical powers would be substantially weaker, but nowhere near enough to counter the increase for having the combination and using it to its full potential.

Hemalurgic Thug = half strength natural Thug
Hemalurgic pewter feruchemist = half strength natural pewter feruchemist
Hemalurgist burning his own pewtermind = quintuple strength Thug and feruchemist put together
The Lord Ruler burning his own pewtermind = 10 times normal Thug and feruchemist put together

Yes, I'm just making up the numbers here, but you get the idea, and I actually think all of those numbers are rather low.

And then you get things like this (again, actual numbers drawn from thin air):
1) Hemalurgist's normal strength is 1.
2) Hemalurgist burns normal pewter, increasing strength to 2.
3) Hemalurgist stores strength in pewtermind, decreasing strength back to 1 and storing strength at 1.  I remember EUOL stating that storing more than about 20% of your strength normally was hazardous because of how much you need just to stay alive, keep your heart pumping, etc.  This is already 5 times that, and can be drawn back at that rate without spending any on compounding it.
4) Hemalurgist burns pewtermind, increasing strength by 5, to 6.
5) Hemalurgist stores strength in new pewtermind, decreasing strength back to 1 and storing strength at 5.
6) Hemalurgist burns pewtermind, increasing strength by 25, to 26.
7) etc.
8) Hemalurgist fights someone, taps or burns pewtermind to gain strength over 9000, and sends his opponent into orbit with a light tap from one pinky.

Rashek did stuff like this.  It's how he stayed young for 1000 years, and how he killed entire armies of rebels all by himself.  No one else even had the ability to do so until Hero of Ages when Ruin took over the Inquisitors and killed the Keepers, and even if Ruin had them try it, they didn't have the time to get much experience at it or build up truly impressive reserves.  Yes, Rashek's allomancy and feruchemy was natural and therefore stronger, but that's why he's the one thing I said actually could beat a top end hemalurgist besides a top end Awakener who knows what's coming and is prepared for it.  Yes, Rashek himself got beaten by a mere mistborn, but only because Vin was Preservation's chosen successor and therefore could draw on the mists for power.  Without that quite unique advantage, which itself is not really part of the magic system in my opinion, she would have had no chance at all.

Breath itself is not a scarce resource, every human has it.

Every human has exactly one Breath.  You need hundreds to do anything really significant, and tens of thousands to reach the system's potential.  That is most definitely scarce.

Unlike Allomancy and Ferchemy the resource used can be called back (Unless used in a Lifeless.) and it can do more abstract things.  At the Sixth heightening they can Awaken things in the sound of their voice like say, a mistcloak, wit the right amount of strength however this can be countered.

That power comes at the ninth heightening.

At the Eighth Heightining  they can awakenn metal and stone provided they know the commands, this screw over Feruchemists and Steel Inquistors.  Although, awakening metal and stone takes a lot of Breath.

This is also a ninth heightening power.  You need to convince 20000 people to willingly give you their Breath in order to get to that point, and that's not easy no matter how you look at it.  Sure, you can reduce that number by getting people who have multiple Breaths themselves to give theirs to you, but anyone who's gathered a significant number of Breaths is going to be a LOT harder to convince.

As for winning through number of Lifeless, it appers you've forgotten the koloss.

True, though that's another point in favor of top end hemalurgists beating everyone.
It only takes 10,00 breathes to reach the Tenth heighteng.  There are Billions of people in the worlds.  I'm sorry, you're rigth I got my heightenings wrong they are ninth heightning power but regardless Steel Inquistors are the best manifestation of Hemalurgy to date, so that's what I'm going off of.

Aranfan

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Re: Magic System compare/contrast
« Reply #7 on: August 02, 2009, 01:59:54 AM »
I thought Koloss had five spikes, which would require six people (5 killed for the spikes, 1 to put the spikes in).  My memory on where this was mentioned is vague enough that I don't want to look it up, though.

I remember two spikes.

douglas

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Re: Magic System compare/contrast
« Reply #8 on: August 02, 2009, 02:08:46 AM »
It only takes 10,00 breathes to reach the Tenth heighteng.  There are Billions of people in the worlds.  I'm sorry, you're rigth I got my heightenings wrong they are ninth heightning power but regardless Steel Inquistors are the best manifestation of Hemalurgy to date, so that's what I'm going off of.
According to the table in the back of my hardcover copy of Warbreaker, which I just now checked, the tenth heightening requires 50,000 breaths.

The thing with Hemalurgists is that they can do anything someone who is both a mistborn and a feruchemist can do, just with somewhat reduced strength.  The one and only example we have of that is the Lord Ruler.  That should be your baseline for high end capability, in principle if not in absolute strength, and the power multiplication trick the Lord Ruler used is explicitly laid out by Sazed at the end of Mistborn 1 to explain how he stayed alive for 1000 years despite being an otherwise normal human.

I thought Koloss had five spikes, which would require six people (5 killed for the spikes, 1 to put the spikes in).  My memory on where this was mentioned is vague enough that I don't want to look it up, though.

I remember two spikes.

You may be thinking of Kandra, their "blessings" are two spikes each.
« Last Edit: August 02, 2009, 02:10:25 AM by douglas »

Technomancer

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Re: Magic System compare/contrast
« Reply #9 on: August 02, 2009, 02:15:04 AM »
It only takes 10,00 breathes to reach the Tenth heighteng.  There are Billions of people in the worlds.  I'm sorry, you're rigth I got my heightenings wrong they are ninth heightning power but regardless Steel Inquistors are the best manifestation of Hemalurgy to date, so that's what I'm going off of.
According to the table in the back of my hardcover copy of Warbreaker, which I just now checked, the tenth heightening requires 50,000 breaths.

The thing with Hemalurgists is that they can do anything someone who is both a mistborn and a feruchemist can do, just with somewhat reduced strength.  The one and only example we have of that is the Lord Ruler.  That should be your baseline for high end capability, in principle if not in absolute strength, and the power multiplication trick the Lord Ruler used is explicitly laid out by Sazed at the end of Mistborn 1 to explain how he stayed alive for 1000 years despite being an otherwise normal human.

I thought Koloss had five spikes, which would require six people (5 killed for the spikes, 1 to put the spikes in).  My memory on where this was mentioned is vague enough that I don't want to look it up, though.

I remember two spikes.

You may be thinking of Kandra, their "blessings" are two spikes each.
Man, I'm tired it is 50,000.  Haven't slept well lately I'm sloppy.

Aranfan

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Re: Magic System compare/contrast
« Reply #10 on: August 02, 2009, 02:17:03 AM »
I thought Koloss had five spikes, which would require six people (5 killed for the spikes, 1 to put the spikes in).  My memory on where this was mentioned is vague enough that I don't want to look it up, though.

I remember two spikes.

You may be thinking of Kandra, their "blessings" are two spikes each.

Perhaps, I thought that both were two spikes though.  I'll have to check.

douglas

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Re: Magic System compare/contrast
« Reply #11 on: August 02, 2009, 02:37:59 AM »
Perhaps, I thought that both were two spikes though.  I'll have to check.

Just checked, it's in the pre-chapter blurb for chapter 40 of Hero of Ages.  Koloss have four spikes, so making one requires five people.

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Re: Magic System compare/contrast
« Reply #12 on: August 02, 2009, 02:50:57 AM »
Right, yeah, so I'd say lifeless win that in terms of cost effectiveness.

ErikHolmes

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Re: Magic System compare/contrast
« Reply #13 on: August 02, 2009, 04:07:58 AM »
I think I'm going to have to throw in my vote with an Aon Dor Master.

And lets keep in mind, Raoden was far from a master. He'd studied Aon Dor for what, a year? There were probably Elantrians that had studied and practiced it for hundreds, if not thousands, of years. And look at what he could do with it after just a little study, without a real teacher.

Teleportation, Fireballs, Force shields, flight, those are probably all possible with Aon Dor.

And this is all assuming that an Elantrian can even die. A sword through the chest wouldn't do it. And they can turn garbage into corn, I'm betting they can make some nice armor if they need it.

I really don't think any of the others would have much of a chance.
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Re: Magic System compare/contrast
« Reply #14 on: August 02, 2009, 04:27:48 AM »
while it does indeed take more men to create koloss than lifeless, one could argue that the "superhuman factor" makes it worth it. koloss are powerhouses that have incredible strength and resistance to pain or injury. i say the lifeless remain even with koloss
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