Author Topic: Mistborn trilogy review and feedback(Beware spoilers)  (Read 7441 times)

JakobLayn

  • Level 2
  • **
  • Posts: 21
  • Fell Points: 0
    • View Profile
Re: Mistborn trilogy review and feedback
« Reply #15 on: July 18, 2009, 11:27:18 PM »
Yeah I see your point about the recaps and stuff but idk its his style of writing i guess...dont forget this is his first series so he's kinda new on how to put stuff together seamlessly, im thinking his writing will defenitely improve in the near future if not oh well im not complaining he still writes excellent books ;D
« Last Edit: July 18, 2009, 11:39:26 PM by JakobLayn »
The fear to explore the unknowns in life is to deny yourself all the joys and happiness as well

shadow9d9

  • Level 2
  • **
  • Posts: 26
  • Fell Points: 0
    • View Profile
Re: Mistborn trilogy review and feedback
« Reply #16 on: July 18, 2009, 11:43:12 PM »
Yeah I see your point about the recaps and stuff but idk its his style of writing i guess...dont forget this is his first series so he's kinda new on how to put stuff together seamlessly, im thinking his writing will defenitely improve in the near future if not oh well im not complaining he still writes excellent books ;D

I spent about 10 minutes skimming later bits of Hero of the Ages and just updated my post again with a bunch more quotes.

It is a fairly minor problem that could easily be gotten rid of.  I hope his skill continues to improve.  If I don't like a book, I don't generally give feedback... it is just that he is so close to greatness that it makes sense to give minor feedback.

I just don't get the kneejerk reaction to valid criticism.

JakobLayn

  • Level 2
  • **
  • Posts: 21
  • Fell Points: 0
    • View Profile
Re: Mistborn trilogy review and feedback(Beware spoilers)
« Reply #17 on: July 18, 2009, 11:50:41 PM »
It happens, sometimes people don't like seeing their hero being put down when i first read your post i kinda freaked to but hey everyones entitiled to their viewpoint and hopefully no violence will come of it;D but i think the biggest reason for the reaction was how out of nowhere BAM you pop up wth this review thats not exactly hailing Sanderson. so some r gonna get their feelings hurt idk people are confusing
« Last Edit: July 18, 2009, 11:59:45 PM by JakobLayn »
The fear to explore the unknowns in life is to deny yourself all the joys and happiness as well

shadow9d9

  • Level 2
  • **
  • Posts: 26
  • Fell Points: 0
    • View Profile
Re: Mistborn trilogy review and feedback(Beware spoilers)
« Reply #18 on: July 18, 2009, 11:56:46 PM »
It happens, sometimes people don't like seeing their hero being put down when i first read your post i kinda freaked to but hey everyones wntitiled to their viewpoint and hopefully no violence will come of it;D but i think the biggest reason for the reaction was how out of nowhere BAM you pop up wth this review thats not exactly hailing Sanderson. so some r gonna get their feelings hurt idk people are confusing

People who know me are used to it.  i'll be the first one to tell you if a Battlestar Galactica episode is bad, or a Phish song is bad, etc.  My favorite trilogy, the Prince of Nothing by Scott Bakker, was followed up by Neuropath, which I felt was fairly poor.  It happens.  No one is perfect.

JakobLayn

  • Level 2
  • **
  • Posts: 21
  • Fell Points: 0
    • View Profile
Re: Mistborn trilogy review and feedback(Beware spoilers)
« Reply #19 on: July 19, 2009, 12:09:44 AM »
Yep thats what i tell people all the time... this reminds when i didnt give a glowing report on The twilight series. I mean it was well written wtih semi-interesting characters but the plot was so blech it was like reading a vampire soap opera so yeah i know what ure tlking about :)
The fear to explore the unknowns in life is to deny yourself all the joys and happiness as well

Reaves

  • Level 23
  • *
  • Posts: 1226
  • Fell Points: 1
    • View Profile
Re: Mistborn trilogy review and feedback(Beware spoilers)
« Reply #20 on: July 19, 2009, 12:58:14 AM »
Eh. I tried. I think the OP is overreacting, but don't think it's worth the effort to continue the discussion.
Quote from: VegasDev
RJF: "AHA! You fell victim to one of the classic blunders! The most famous is never get involved in a land war in Cairhien, but only slightly less well-known is this: never go in against a warder when he is only the distraction! Get him Rand! Buzzzzzzz!

little wilson

  • Level 29
  • *
  • Posts: 1634
  • Fell Points: 0
  • Hero of Ages: Preservation
    • View Profile
    • My Myspace
Re: Mistborn trilogy review and feedback(Beware spoilers)
« Reply #21 on: July 19, 2009, 01:00:03 AM »
Please, please do not say you just compared Mistborn to Twilight.

OP--I don't think anyone is saying they dislike your opinion. The point is that in the the first post, you said you're critiquing it, and then other than that first paragraph you didn't say anything good about the book. Complete focus on the negative. Sure, you don't critique books that you don't like. I get that. But all good reviews are balanced. They show the good. They show the bad.

I personally thought that HoA was fantastic. I'm almost of mixed feelings about the ending. Not because it was rushed. Because of how sad it was. Vin and Elend died. It doesn't matter if they're "happy in the afterlife." They're still dead. Regardless, I think the fast pace at the end made it all the better. I love it. Sure, it saddens me that they're gone, but I would never want that changed. Before HoA came out, Mistborn was my 2nd favorite trilogy of all time, right behind a trilogy I found a couple years back that I thought would need a lot to beat it. HoA bumped it over. By a large margin.

You complain about the internal ramblings of Elend and Sazed. Elend was learning and growing the entire time, as someone else pointed out, so I don't think his was very repetitious. Each time was slightly better, showing he could handle more and more, so....it was character development.

You might have a case with Sazed, but I found his suffering very emotionally powerful. He's been such a strong character, and now he's lost. Doubting. Depressed. I think his internal thoughts are perfectly relevant. If you've never felt lost like he has--felt depressed to that degree--I don't expect you to understand. But I know about severe depression like that. It's not something you can just put aside, and move on. It stays with you, holding you down. You can't grow until it's gone. And it takes a lot to push past it.

Now, you might now say "He shouldn't have gone to Sazed so much, if that's the case. One time in his head would've been sufficient to get his current state."...Sazed is too big of a character for that kind of treatment, though. I mean, not only is he the Hero of Ages, he's also been so big in the other two books. If he had been given such a little part in this one and then turned out to be so important, it would be too odd. Plus, seeing how much he's grown in the last 100 pages was incredible. He went from lost and extremely depressed, to finding the truth, realizing his purpose, and ultimately saving the world....Simply amazing.
"You either die a hero or you live long enough to see yourself become the villain."

firstRainbowRose

  • Level 18
  • *
  • Posts: 867
  • Fell Points: 1
  • So pretty!
    • View Profile
Re: Mistborn trilogy review and feedback(Beware spoilers)
« Reply #22 on: July 19, 2009, 01:18:57 AM »
I would just like to point out one thing (and will more then likely not reply past this, be warned.)  Yes, he repeates things, but so do we.  I mean, I go to work every day and think "I hope I can keep on track today."  And if you were reading my life from day to day, you might find it annoying, but it's true.  I read through my journals (just went into my seventh, spanning from when I turned 14 to yesterday (I turned 22 on thursday) so quite a few years) and I repeate the same themes over and over -- "I hope I find someone to love", "I'm annoyed with X (or Y, or Z person)", "This happened at work", "I had this dream".  They are all the same thing when you put it like that, and while they might be boring they are basically my life.

So yes, it might be repetitive, but that's because that's how life is.  And if nothing else you want your characters to be as real to life as you can, that way your readers can connect with them and can believe what they do.
"The custom of royalty in referring to oneself is to naturally employ the royal 'we'.  We are very happy, we are very sad, we are bored and suffer from ennui.  For a royal prince there's no such word as 'me', It's always 'we'.  So rightfully I should be two or three, don't you agree?"

Peter Ahlstrom

  • Administrator
  • Level 59
  • *
  • Posts: 4902
  • Fell Points: 2
  • Assistant to Mr. Sanderson
    • View Profile
Re: Mistborn trilogy review and feedback(Beware spoilers)
« Reply #23 on: July 19, 2009, 01:40:12 AM »
Remember that Brandon has to include enough reminders for the people who haven't read the previous book in the last year. Also, foreshadowing has to be sufficient in order for revelations to have enough support when they eventually come out.

A writer cannot please everyone all the time. The end of HoA took a lot of balancing on Brandon's part. If he had gone too far in one direction a lot of a certain type of reader would have hated it. If he had gone too far in a different direction many of those readers would have been pleased but a lot of a different type of reader would have hated it. Instead, by and large the majority of readers were pleased with the ending and that's about the best Brandon could have hoped for.
All Saiyuki fans should check out Dazzle! Emotionally wrenching action-adventure and quirky humor! (At least read chapter 6 and tell me if you're not hooked.) Volume 10 out now!

douglas

  • Level 8
  • *
  • Posts: 295
  • Fell Points: 0
    • View Profile
Re: Mistborn trilogy review and feedback
« Reply #24 on: July 19, 2009, 01:48:09 AM »
Elend repeating his poor confidence was something he thought over and over for the last 2 books.  It became ridiculous by the end.  Sorry you don't remember more.

From what I remember, he grew increasingly more confident throughout both books.  It got set back a bit at the start of HoA due to him suddenly being a Mistborn, but at the same time was more targeted on things related specifically to that.

Sazed and how he is lost in himself... over and over and over.  There was no development until the last 100 pages for Sazed.  He just whined the whole book with the exact same thoughts repeated.

I'll grant you that one, but I think it was required to properly set up his development.  Without repeating some of his thoughts about religion and faith, it seems to me the development at the end would be perceived as not important, coming from nowhere, or not a major change.

I turned to random pages and checking it out-  I did it for about 5 minutes and I came across these 2, which ironically are repeating the same thing 2 books later-

Hero of the Ages- page 106- "Hope is for the foolish..." paragraph
Hero of the Ages-page 402-"Reen had died protecting her..."  That paragraph- reiterating it again...

Thank you.

I couldn't find the second one, but I found the first on page 94 of the hardcover.  If you give any more text references, please include the chapter number and approximate location within the chapter (this one's on page 3 of chapter 12, in case anyone else wants to look it up).

If that is a good representative of what you're complaining about, I wouldn't say I'm "used to it" but it strikes me as far more minor and less jarring of an interruption than you're making it out to be.  I see your point about the rest of the paragraph (the line from Reen's voice itself is another matter, but I don't think that's being argued), and I agree it could be done better.  Some of that paragraph is a summary of a major plot element that any reader of the first book could hardly miss, and the whole thing could use a style overhaul and shortening.  Still, it is a single not particularly long paragraph describing what the current point of view character is thinking about.  It could be done better and with less recapping, but I don't think it's really that bad.

I was going to reply in more detail individually to your list, but if all your complaints are like that paragraph then your entire list could be perfectly accurate and I probably wouldn't remember any of it because that kind of summary/recap on that scale in that manner just doesn't jump out at me, especially when it's always immediately tied in to the current story.  Yes, it's summarizing or repeating things we already know, but it's always brief and always closely related to what's going on right now.

Everything was rushed.  Vin fighting and getting ultimate power, the kandra ovethrowing the 1st gen, to be overthrown by the rebels, to be helped by the people.. the 16% getting their powers, then rushing to another cave, to fight and die...   It felt forced and unsatisfying to me.
This is an acknowledged problem, to the point where it's got a proper noun attached to it that even the author uses.  I'm given to understand that the Brandon Avalanche has gotten much less severe as he's gotten more experience - I hear you should request the single copy of Dragonsteel from BYU's library on inter library loan if you want to see how it used to be (just be patient, it's ILL and there's only one copy available anywhere) - and presumably this trend will continue.  Even so, having lots of stuff happen quickly is an inherent part of having a climax in the story at all, so I don't regard it as a purely bad thing.

Sazed got the power and made everything perfect.  Obvious and too perfect.  Everyone who dies is happy in the afterlife, a clear explanation is documented for everyone still alive in a tomb.  Just way too perfect and happy.
The two main characters who die are content in the afterlife, but I'm pretty sure they'd still prefer to be alive and I'm quite certain Spook and several other major characters would prefer it that way too.  I'm also pretty sure most of the other people who died, you know, the hordes of nameless soldiers and civilians, are a bit unhappy about it.

The world itself is fixed and everything's explained to the survivors, but civilization in general is still pretty well trashed.  All cities are gone, total population is drastically reduced, all infrastructure is destroyed, etc.  Having nothing but an initial population and some starting supplies in an unfamiliar world is hardly "perfect" in my opinion, even if that unfamiliar world is a lot more friendly and survivable than it used to be.
Sorry, as I said.  It was standard fantasy fare ending.  Happy and perfect restoration.  Add in pages of preaching and everyone living happily ever after in the afterlife.
I just reread the ending, and I'm really not getting a preachy feel from it.  I can sort of see how it might be possible to interpret the page or two about religions, experience, and having guides that way, but that section strikes me far more as just explaining how Sazed can fix the world so well despite having no more experience at it than the Lord Ruler did when he messed everything up.  Two specific characters are "living happily ever after in the afterlife", but that doesn't automatically generalize to the countless others that died over the course of the series.

shadow9d9

  • Level 2
  • **
  • Posts: 26
  • Fell Points: 0
    • View Profile
Re: Mistborn trilogy review and feedback(Beware spoilers)
« Reply #25 on: July 19, 2009, 02:54:39 AM »
I would just like to point out one thing (and will more then likely not reply past this, be warned.)  Yes, he repeates things, but so do we.  I mean, I go to work every day and think "I hope I can keep on track today."  And if you were reading my life from day to day, you might find it annoying, but it's true.  I read through my journals (just went into my seventh, spanning from when I turned 14 to yesterday (I turned 22 on thursday) so quite a few years) and I repeate the same themes over and over -- "I hope I find someone to love", "I'm annoyed with X (or Y, or Z person)", "This happened at work", "I had this dream".  They are all the same thing when you put it like that, and while they might be boring they are basically my life.

So yes, it might be repetitive, but that's because that's how life is.  And if nothing else you want your characters to be as real to life as you can, that way your readers can connect with them and can believe what they do.


There is confusion here.  There are 2 points.

The main point is that he kept repeating past information already known by the reader.  In my paged examples, Vin's past experiences, etc.  He is reminding you of something you already read, as if you were so dumb that you wouldn't remember it.  And it didn't just happen once.  It happened over and over.

2nd and less minor, I happened to find the 'this is hard being king' and 'no religion is true' thoughts a bit repetitive and boring.  I felt it became padding or attempted depth.

shadow9d9

  • Level 2
  • **
  • Posts: 26
  • Fell Points: 0
    • View Profile
Re: Mistborn trilogy review and feedback(Beware spoilers)
« Reply #26 on: July 19, 2009, 02:56:19 AM »
Remember that Brandon has to include enough reminders for the people who haven't read the previous book in the last year. Also, foreshadowing has to be sufficient in order for revelations to have enough support when they eventually come out.

A writer cannot please everyone all the time. The end of HoA took a lot of balancing on Brandon's part. If he had gone too far in one direction a lot of a certain type of reader would have hated it. If he had gone too far in a different direction many of those readers would have been pleased but a lot of a different type of reader would have hated it. Instead, by and large the majority of readers were pleased with the ending and that's about the best Brandon could have hoped for.

First of all, you don't HAVE to remind readers. 

2nd, at the END of the book are summaries of events from previous books.   If you want reminders, place that first.

3rd.  He "reminded" multiple times in each book!

shadow9d9

  • Level 2
  • **
  • Posts: 26
  • Fell Points: 0
    • View Profile
Re: Mistborn trilogy review and feedback
« Reply #27 on: July 19, 2009, 02:59:53 AM »
Quote

Thank you.

I couldn't find the second one, but I found the first on page 94 of the hardcover.  If you give any more text references, please include the chapter number and approximate location within the chapter (this one's on page 3 of chapter 12, in case anyone else wants to look it up).


Keep in mind the page numbers were taken out of the mass market paperback.

Here is the full list that I found in 10 minutes of skimming (in case you missed it when I went back and re-edited)-

Hero of the Ages- page 106- "Hope is for the foolish..."
Hero of the Ages-page 402-"Reen had died protecting her..."   reiterating it again...
hoa- 182- "the book was alendi's logbook..."
HOA-223- "And the walls of course..."
HOA 261- 'They waited"
HOA-265- middle top paragraph- "She felt somewhat..." into the first paragraph "That day..."
HOA 383-"It had been one of Reen's..."
HOA-546- "So Vin did..."
hoa 598- "Somehow, she'd taken..."

shadow9d9

  • Level 2
  • **
  • Posts: 26
  • Fell Points: 0
    • View Profile
Re: Mistborn trilogy review and feedback(Beware spoilers)
« Reply #28 on: July 19, 2009, 03:01:42 AM »
Eh. I tried. I think the OP is overreacting, but don't think it's worth the effort to continue the discussion.

Why should something not be improved if given the chance?

Why would feedback be unimportant because some people don't agree with it?

How is sending feedback overreacting?  I even gave quoted examples of him repeating past events in the same book.. some within a few pages of each other!

shadow9d9

  • Level 2
  • **
  • Posts: 26
  • Fell Points: 0
    • View Profile
Re: Mistborn trilogy review and feedback(Beware spoilers)
« Reply #29 on: July 19, 2009, 03:04:04 AM »
"The point is that in the the first post, you said you're critiquing it, and then other than that first paragraph you didn't say anything good about the book. Complete focus on the negative. Sure, you don't critique books that you don't like. I get that. But all good reviews are balanced."

Perhaps I should have worded the title: "My critique."

My post is meant as feedback, which requires mention of the negatives first and foremost. 

I thought I had given enough positives by mentioning that 2 were in my solid recommend categories and then I listed all the wonderful things about the first book, most of which extended to the whole trilogy.

If you saw my scores in the context of all of my scores for every book I've read, you would see that they are ranked fairly well, with the exception of the 3rd.