Author Topic: Ultimate Brandon Sanderson Showdown  (Read 4104 times)

sortitus

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Re: Ultimate Brandon Sanderson Showdown
« Reply #45 on: August 02, 2009, 08:59:22 PM »
We have no examples of non-awakeners being attracted by Nightblood either, if we use awakener to mean someone who can awaken given enough Breath.
I was talking about anyone who has a single breath when I said that we didn't have any examples of non-Awakeners being repulsed by Nightblood. Unfortunately, all of these that I can think of were criminals, so all we can do is theorize.
Vin doesn't need the mists for that, she can just use Duralumin.  Remember, it's a question of sheer power being able to pull things out of the body.  TLR tore Vin's earring out without drawing on the Mists, so a Duralumin fueled tug should be able to take out his bracers.
Not necessarily. Vin got lucky, and TLR removed her earring. She burned the eleventh metal, and I'm not sure if it was that or the mists that allowed her to see what she needed to do to defeat TLR. If we allow Vin the knowledge she has right before she goes fully Preservation and TLR is left with only the knowledge he had before he fought Vin, of course Vin wins. She already knows how to defeat TLR, but only because TLR is already dead. So it's a paradox. For Vin to have the knowledge to defeat TLR, she needs either the mists or the eleventh metal, which she doesn't carry with her as standard equipment. To have the power to defeat TLR, she needs the mists or duralumin, and to give her the latter is pretty cheap since she didn't gain the knowledge of how to make it until after defeating TLR. If we give TLR the same courtesy as Vin, and use him right before he dies, he knows what Vin can do and could probably prevent it. The same paradoxical problems exist with Denth and Vasher, though to a lesser extent.

Czanos, I'm not sure if the metal from the bloodstream trick would work for TLR. Of course, one thing to remember when having TLR in the fight is that he normally carries metalminds that he has been filling for a thousand years. That's some pretty sweet starting equipment. He can survive anything short of removing his bracers of immortality or contact with nightblood. If we take each of these characters at the last point we see them as a mortal, I think that TLR wins.
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ErikHolmes

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Re: Ultimate Brandon Sanderson Showdown
« Reply #46 on: August 02, 2009, 09:04:46 PM »
And where have we seen an impenetrable force field/shield in Elantris?  Chapter and page number please.

It's at the end of Chapter 62:

Quote
As he dodged. Raoden searched through his memory of Aons. Thinking quickly, he rolled to his feet, rapidly scribbling Aon Edo before him. It was a simple character, requiring only six strokes, and he finished it before Dilaf could make a third attack. The Aon flashed briefly, and then a thin wall of light appeared between himself and Dilaf.

Dilaf tested the wall hesitantly with the tip of his sword, and the wall resisted. The more one pressed against it, the more it drew from the Dor. pressing back with equal strength. Dilaf could not reach him.

Keep in mind, he drew this Aon while being attacked, in close melee within the confines of an alley, by a highly trained swordsmen with supernatural strength and speed. He'd also just been wounded a second before.

Also, not only did it stop the attack of a man with supernatural strength (probably around pewter burning strength) but it did so while weakened. Raoden was not in Elantris when he made the Dor,

IMO, an Elantrian would win in the Sanderson showdown. Unless someone like the Lord Ruler took them by surprise, was close enough to kill them in 1 second before they could react, etc.

We only get to see what an Elantrian can do, minutes after they regain their powers. In Harry Potter terms, these guys aren't even Freshmen or first year students yet. And they annihilate an invading army, possessing soldiers with supernatural enhancements to strength and speed, in under an hour.

There is a reason they were called Gods.
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Plasman

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Re: Ultimate Brandon Sanderson Showdown
« Reply #47 on: August 02, 2009, 09:32:04 PM »
thank you czanos for the mental speed citing. i'm suprised that brandon didn't use it more as it can be kind of like a feruchemist's atium. most likely because it is difficult to store. this split second feruchemical burst sounds like an instant kill to me.
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Aranfan

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Re: Ultimate Brandon Sanderson Showdown
« Reply #48 on: August 02, 2009, 09:36:32 PM »
Thank you Erik.  I will concede that Vin would probably lose against Raoden if he opened with Edo.  If he started with Daa or the fire one then Vin has a chance.

Also, TLR can push on the metal in people's bodies, but only to the point of pushing the body around.  Which would still be extremely useful against the Elantrians.

I'm thus seeing Vin, TLR, and Raoden as the main contenders, with who wins dependent on who fights who in what order. Nightblood gives Vasher a chance to win, so he'd be a forth contender.

With Erik's citation, I feel confident in giving the win to TLR as I now feel he will deal with Vasher before claiming Nightblood as a trophy.





@Plasman, the mental speed used to calculate trajectories and the mental speed you are talking about are very different (you're talking about decision making speed).  I don't think that it would work quite the way you think it would work.

ErikHolmes

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Re: Ultimate Brandon Sanderson Showdown
« Reply #49 on: August 02, 2009, 10:53:11 PM »
Also, TLR can push on the metal in people's bodies, but only to the point of pushing the body around.  Which would still be extremely useful against the Elantrians.

I think you could make an argument for this not working on the Elantrians. Its shown in the book that they do not have normal blood, their blood is a clear liquid. I believe the iron in your blood is mainly what makes blood look red, so I think its safe to say that Elantrians don't possess enough in their bodies for the Lord Ruler to push on.

This is assuming that Aon Edo wouldn't stop the push in the first place.

Its a tough call, we get to see a lot more of how awesome TLR is. While we only get to see minutes of Raoden's power, and really, he's a total noob at it.

Still, I think if Raoden needed to take down the Lord Ruler, he could. Aon Dor is versatile and powerful. Unless you're saying that Raoden is surprised I think he can take down TLR. He can teleport away from an encounter, then send Seons to spy on TLR and pick the time and place of the fight.

With just 3 of the Aons Raoden can teleport, protect himself and destroy just about anything. And he has a lot more Aons to work with. Also, I've noticed that there is a Aon for almost each of the powers of Allomancy:


# Ata (grace, smoothness)
# Daa (power, energy)
# Ela (focus, center)
# Eon (willpower, endurance)
# Ene (wit, cleverness)
# Ien (healing)
# Ire (time, age)
# Nae (sight, clarity)
# Rao (spirit, essence)
# Sao (intelligence, learning)

I don't know if its that much of a stretch to say that Raoden could make himself faster, stronger, tougher, then TLR.


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Aranfan

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Re: Ultimate Brandon Sanderson Showdown
« Reply #50 on: August 02, 2009, 11:11:38 PM »
I'm taking Raoden as of the end of Elantris, because if we don't we either do him a disservice or are dealing with a speculative possible Raoden instead of the actual Raoden.


I'm also assuming pretty much no preptime before the fight.  The Allomancers have their standard metals in their bellies, the Feruchemists have their metalminds filled up to their usual amount, the Awakeners have their Breath and any standard commands set up, and the Elantrians aren't in zombie mode, but none of them are given time to prepare beyond that.  Partly this is because of how Broken Elantrians are with preptime.  I'm also assuming this happens in some sort of arena and that leaving the arena would count as a forfeiture.


Citation on the blood thing?

sortitus

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Re: Ultimate Brandon Sanderson Showdown
« Reply #51 on: August 02, 2009, 11:25:21 PM »
I don't know if its that much of a stretch to say that Raoden could make himself faster, stronger, tougher, then TLR.
Ah, don't some of the baddies in Elantris use tattoos to enhance themselves this way? It seems that an Aon drawn in the air only lasts for a few seconds, so having to constantly draw buffs would hamper combat quite a bit.

Aran, the Mistborn don't get spare vials at all? Most of them do carry quite a few spare pewter vials, mixes, and at least one atium or electrum.
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happyman

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Re: Ultimate Brandon Sanderson Showdown
« Reply #52 on: August 02, 2009, 11:32:18 PM »
We have no examples of non-awakeners being attracted by Nightblood either, if we use awakener to mean someone who can awaken given enough Breath.
I was talking about anyone who has a single breath when I said that we didn't have any examples of non-Awakeners being repulsed by Nightblood. Unfortunately, all of these that I can think of were criminals, so all we can do is theorize.

Isn't there the maid in the God King's palace who is repulsed by Nightblood?  Not to mention two of the servants who try to stop Vasher from entering Mercystar's tunnels?

Of course, in principle all people in Warbreaker are Awakeners.  They're just mostly Awakeners with only one or no breath, which isn't good for much.
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sortitus

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Re: Ultimate Brandon Sanderson Showdown
« Reply #53 on: August 02, 2009, 11:47:55 PM »
I don't remember a maid being repulsed. I'll have to check for that. The servants in Mercystar's apartments were priests, so they all had extra breaths.

I thought that Awakening was something that anyone from anywhere could learn, regardless of heritage. If not, it's still debatable whether people who aren't from that world would be able to sense anything amiss with a breath-enhanced sword.
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Plasman

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Re: Ultimate Brandon Sanderson Showdown
« Reply #54 on: August 02, 2009, 11:55:24 PM »
so i pulled out WoA and found that Sazed uses zinc twice during his fight with Marsh. the first time he uses it he plots out the trajectory of the flying lamp and is able to use it against Marsh. but i'd like to point out the second time along with words that accompany each usage, "Sazed's thoughts sped up" and then it says that he became more aware of his situation. this points me toward believing he was thinking things through at a faster speed than normal and not simply plotting trajectories faster, which the brain does in a split second anyway.

has anyone else read aether of night? where would Raeth fit into this battle i wonder...

and sortitus, just because they were priests doesn't mean they auotmatically had more than one breath. i'm pretty sure llarimar only has one
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ErikHolmes

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Re: Ultimate Brandon Sanderson Showdown
« Reply #55 on: August 03, 2009, 12:03:28 AM »
I'm taking Raoden as of the end of Elantris, because if we don't we either do him a disservice or are dealing with a speculative possible Raoden instead of the actual Raoden.

Even still. The fight starts. Shields come up. Raoden then blasts TLR to powder. Also, we know that an Elantrian can turn garbage into corn. Why not turn metal into garbage. When his armbands are turned into stale donuts, TLR is screwed  :D

Citation on the blood thing?

Quote
The priest lunged forward, and Raoden barely rolled away in time to avoid being impaled. As it was, Dilaf's attack sliced through the flesh of Raoden's left forearm, spilling silvery-white Elantrian blood.

Same spot as the Force Shield reference.
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sortitus

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Re: Ultimate Brandon Sanderson Showdown
« Reply #56 on: August 03, 2009, 12:33:19 AM »
Ah yes, there it is. Page 510 a maid gets sick when Vahser draws Nightblood.

I can't find the priest citation. All of the priests present when Viv goes to the palace for the first time have the first heightening, though. The servants were not stated as priests, and no mention was given to the amount of breaths they held.
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Aranfan

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Re: Ultimate Brandon Sanderson Showdown
« Reply #57 on: August 03, 2009, 12:39:35 AM »
I don't know if its that much of a stretch to say that Raoden could make himself faster, stronger, tougher, then TLR.
Ah, don't some of the baddies in Elantris use tattoos to enhance themselves this way? It seems that an Aon drawn in the air only lasts for a few seconds, so having to constantly draw buffs would hamper combat quite a bit.

Aran, the Mistborn don't get spare vials at all? Most of them do carry quite a few spare pewter vials, mixes, and at least one atium or electrum.

Well, I thought that went without saying.  So yes.

so i pulled out WoA and found that Sazed uses zinc twice during his fight with Marsh. the first time he uses it he plots out the trajectory of the flying lamp and is able to use it against Marsh. but i'd like to point out the second time along with words that accompany each usage, "Sazed's thoughts sped up" and then it says that he became more aware of his situation. this points me toward believing he was thinking things through at a faster speed than normal and not simply plotting trajectories faster, which the brain does in a split second anyway.

The brain doesn't calculate trajectories that exactly in a split second.  I really don't think Mental Speed works the way you think it works.

I'm taking Raoden as of the end of Elantris, because if we don't we either do him a disservice or are dealing with a speculative possible Raoden instead of the actual Raoden.

Even still. The fight starts. Shields come up. Raoden then blasts TLR to powder. Also, we know that an Elantrian can turn garbage into corn. Why not turn metal into garbage. When his armbands are turned into stale donuts, TLR is screwed  :D

Thank you for the citation.  However, I'm not convinced that the silvery blood is an actual change in what the blood is as opposed to it just being infused with the Dor's power.  In such a case, TLR would still be perfectly able to push an Elantrian around.

Your scenario depends on TLR not being able to push Raoden around at all, and that TLR's immense Soothing doesn't slow down Raoden's reaction times, and that there isn't any metal behind Raoden that TLR can use to take Raoden by surprise, and that TLR isn't fast enough to stop Raoden's drawing or simply dodge (Not likely with how much speed he must have stored up), and and and...  There's a reason The Lord Ruler was considered a god.  This leaves aside the unlikelyness of Raoden specifically changing the bracers.

ErikHolmes

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Re: Ultimate Brandon Sanderson Showdown
« Reply #58 on: August 03, 2009, 01:57:36 AM »
Thank you for the citation.  However, I'm not convinced that the silvery blood is an actual change in what the blood is as opposed to it just being infused with the Dor's power.  In such a case, TLR would still be perfectly able to push an Elantrian around.


If the blood still contained a lot of iron, it would be red. There blood has been changed. I can tell you that Brandon probably got this idea from Mormon doctrine, there are some books out there that talk about translated beings (angels) having their blood changed, which is why they are no longer mortal.

Your scenario depends on TLR not being able to push Raoden around at all, and that TLR's immense Soothing doesn't slow down Raoden's reaction times, and that there isn't any metal behind Raoden that TLR can use to take Raoden by surprise, and that TLR isn't fast enough to stop Raoden's drawing or simply dodge (Not likely with how much speed he must have stored up), and and and...  There's a reason The Lord Ruler was considered a god.  This leaves aside the unlikelyness of Raoden specifically changing the bracers.

Even if he could push them around. I don't see how it matters. They put up their shields and are then pushed against a wall but unharmed. Also, there really is no evidence that TLR can push on the blood inside someone. I've reread the battle between him and Vin, he pushed on the metals she'd drank that were in her stomach, not on her blood.

If we're in a small arena then Raoden could throw up his shield, then keep making Aon Ehe (fire) until the entire arena is one big bonfire. Fire doesn't harm Elantrians.

Quote
Slowly, their bodies glistening with a light both more luminous and more powerful than the flames around them, the Elantrians began to step from the blaze, unharmed by its heat.

As for Soothing Raodens emotions. We never see this used in combat to any effect the the books. Even when TLR uses it on Vin. It's not a combat ability.

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Aranfan

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Re: Ultimate Brandon Sanderson Showdown
« Reply #59 on: August 03, 2009, 02:54:02 AM »
While Sanderson's religion is part of who he is, and thus influences what he writes, he as said multiple times that he is not trying to export his theology in whole or in part.  As such, I don't consider Mormon Doctrine enough evidence for Elantrians not having significant amounts of trace metals in their bodies as humans do.

I'd also like to note that Vin felt TLR's steelpush all over her body, instead of just her stomach.  As to how it matters, Raoden is in the middle of drawing an Aon when TLR suddenly pushes his arm, BAM Aon is ruined.