Author Topic: Magic System compare/contrast  (Read 1769 times)

Aranfan

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Re: Magic System compare/contrast
« Reply #15 on: August 02, 2009, 04:40:53 AM »
I think I'm going to have to throw in my vote with an Aon Dor Master.

And lets keep in mind, Raoden was far from a master. He'd studied Aon Dor for what, a year? There were probably Elantrians that had studied and practiced it for hundreds, if not thousands, of years. And look at what he could do with it after just a little study, without a real teacher.

Teleportation, Fireballs, Force shields, flight, those are probably all possible with Aon Dor.

And this is all assuming that an Elantrian can even die. A sword through the chest wouldn't do it. And they can turn garbage into corn, I'm betting they can make some nice armor if they need it.

I really don't think any of the others would have much of a chance.


Beheading would probably do it.  Or something foreign taking up space inside their skull.

And where were Force Shields or flight in Elantris (the book)?





Re: Koloss vs Lifeless, I'm not sure I agree.

Technomancer

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Re: Magic System compare/contrast
« Reply #16 on: August 02, 2009, 04:41:07 AM »
I think I'm going to have to throw in my vote with an Aon Dor Master.

And lets keep in mind, Raoden was far from a master. He'd studied Aon Dor for what, a year? There were probably Elantrians that had studied and practiced it for hundreds, if not thousands, of years. And look at what he could do with it after just a little study, without a real teacher.

Teleportation, Fireballs, Force shields, flight, those are probably all possible with Aon Dor.

And this is all assuming that an Elantrian can even die. A sword through the chest wouldn't do it. And they can turn garbage into corn, I'm betting they can make some nice armor if they need it.

I really don't think any of the others would have much of a chance.

Yes but that's a little too speculative.

Technomancer

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Re: Magic System compare/contrast
« Reply #17 on: August 02, 2009, 04:56:25 AM »
Well, it's nice to see this picking up.  The Koloss/Lifeless debate is an interesting one.  Here's an interesting thought: each lifeless carries the Breath used to make it and linger somewhere between life and death.  If you were to make a koloos out of Lifeless would it inherit those breaths?  Would a hemalugic spike used to steal abilities carry an Awakener's Breath with it?

Also it wouldn't do us much good to speculate on what Elantrians could do it seemed to me Raoden had the majority of the knowledge form the way it sounded in the books.  The poor Dakhor monks and Ferchemists aren't getting any attention.  Not to mention you've all forgotten a powerful Allomancer can possess Hemalurgic creatures.

Plasman

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Re: Magic System compare/contrast
« Reply #18 on: August 02, 2009, 05:09:59 AM »
lifeless koloss... now that is a tide turner. assuming killing the koloss didn't damage the body to the point where it could no longer fuction, turning the enemy's dead into your own soldiers is strategic genius.
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Technomancer

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Re: Magic System compare/contrast
« Reply #19 on: August 02, 2009, 05:12:21 AM »
lifeless koloss... now that is a tide turner. assuming killing the koloss didn't damage the body to the point where it could no longer fuction, turning the enemy's dead into your own soldiers is strategic genius.
It could work both ways too...

Plasman

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Re: Magic System compare/contrast
« Reply #20 on: August 02, 2009, 05:34:32 AM »
true true true. although the process of creating koloss would require live captures. again i think they are even. with both sides, harvesting the enemy requires killing in a specific way.
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ErikHolmes

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Re: Magic System compare/contrast
« Reply #21 on: August 02, 2009, 08:31:11 AM »
Ok, So I did some rereading of Elantris. Here's a few interesting facts.

1. Elantrians can die. They heal very fast, and can survive many wounds due to this, but if you stop their heart they will die (according to Raoden at the end othe book). They were also supernaturally strong and fast.

2. Their spells really don't take any time to cast. In any RPG out there it would be the standard one spell a turn, maybe ever more. At one point Raoden casts two spells at one, writing an Aon with each hand and killing two separate soldiers. Also, this is after he'd only had a few months practice. I still think a real master might do some really impressive stuff.

3. One spell can vaporize a man, they do lots of damage.

4. They can heal other people very fast. Poof you're healed fast.

5. Their biggest limitation is that Aon Dor really only works near Elantris. The farther you get from Elantris, the weaker it gets.

6. They CAN create Force Fields. Even when weakened by being away from Elantris, Raoden was able to create a force field strong enough to stop the swing of a man with supernatural strength completely.

7. There is no evidence that they can fly (although I though maybe it mentioned it somewhere) but they can teleport.

So, all in all . . . dang. I just don't see the other hanging with them. There is a reason they were called Gods, not mages. I think that unless you took them by surprise they are probably going to come out on top of any of Sanderson's other creations. I think their force shields are probably strong enough to stop a blow from the Lord Ruler, and their attacks are more then enough to kill a Kloss in one strike.

This is also based on what we see of them, minutes after regaining their powers. Who knows what items of magic, etc they can create.

As to the Lifeless vs. Kloss debate.

Kloss, hands down. One Kloss is probably worth 10 lifeless.

But, don't forget about Kalad's Phantoms. I doubt Mistborn, Kloss, or Ferchemists could give them much of a challenge, and they also only take one breath to create.

Of course, the Elantrians would still kick their trash . . .   :D
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little wilson

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Re: Magic System compare/contrast
« Reply #22 on: August 02, 2009, 09:10:57 AM »
Just to add onto what Erik is saying (I completely agree with him, by the way), I think to say Raoden knows pretty much everything about the AonDor by the end of the book is underestimating the magic system. As we can see with all the other magic systems, they're very intricate. Much more complicated than what they seem on first glance--every single one of them. I don't think Elantris is an exception.

We may not know what else an Elantrian can do, but I think as long as the speculation has founding in an Aon, it's okay. I think there's enough evidence in the book to show that the few Aons we see in detail working in the book are more complicated than their basic descriptions, and to say probably all the Aons are like that wouldn't be too far off-base. It's a much more complicated and versatile system than a lot of people are giving it credit for.

But...moving past Elantris (since we know even less about the monks than we do about the Elantrians by far).

Awakening. Breath is everything. That and the Commands. Those are the biggest limits to it. I'm going to use Vasher as an example, simply because as a Scholar, he theoretically knows more Commands than any other Awakener alive (excluding Yesteel). If he had even 1,000 Breaths, he could do quite a bit of damage. Well, assuming he's wearing all sorts of colorful clothing (an image that is rather hard to conjure up, considering...). With that much Breath, and the knowledge that he has with Commands, he could get a lot of objects working with him. And none of them would be trying to break away--like Koloss do when they're controlled. Give a cloak the Command 'Protect Me' and it will go and catch all those coins the Mistborn sends flying, just like it caught the arrows for Viv. Granted, a cloak with that command wouldn't be much use against an Energy Aon, but oh well. Dodge it fast enough and you'll be fine.

Allomancy. Very versatile. It can do so much. That's one of the major pros of it. Biggest drawback is the amount of metals the Allomancer has available to them. If they're running low, they need to start saving it up. Pewter, useful though it is, burns fast and if an Allomancer runs out of that in a fight with any of these other magic systems, they're going down.

Feruchemy. Nice in a fight. Having all that power all at once is useful. Biggest drawback is the storing. Don't have enough health or speed or whatever, and that'll come back to bite you. Major. But if you have a decent-sized store and you use it wisely enough, you could theoretically take down any of the other systems if you're quick about it. Would be hard against the Allomancer. And the Elantrian. But far from impossible (but like I said, you'd have to be smart about it, and quick. If you're just a little too slow, you'd lose the advantage that such a major power flow gives you).

Hemalurgy....Well. Limited by how many spikes you've got, plus how much you've stored (assuming you've stolen some Feruchemical ablities), plus how much metal you've got with you. But, if you're loaded up pretty well on all of those....That's some major power. Enough to beat pretty much all of the others.

I'd go into more detail about these--and how they'd work separately in battle or whatever--but it's past 2 and I need sleep. Even if I'm not tired. I need to kick myself back onto a normal sleeping schedule....
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Technomancer

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Re: Magic System compare/contrast
« Reply #23 on: August 03, 2009, 03:48:58 AM »
Okay, let's say we throw Atium in ths debate, that would give Allomancy and Henalurgy a leg up, would it not?