Author Topic: General Religious discussion  (Read 62438 times)

Peter Ahlstrom

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Re: General Religious discussion
« Reply #255 on: July 06, 2009, 02:03:12 AM »
mtbikemom, LDS believe everything you said in your post about Jesus Christ being the only way to heaven/eternal life. The only thing we may see differently is where you said that when you realized Jesus Christ was the only way you became a citizen of heaven. LDS believe that you also have to follow Jesus Christ and repent and keep his commandments. If you believe in Jesus Christ but don't repent and refuse to follow his commandments, you don't get to heaven.
« Last Edit: July 06, 2009, 02:05:14 AM by Ookla The Mok »
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mtlhddoc2

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Re: General Religious discussion
« Reply #256 on: July 06, 2009, 03:07:07 AM »
Ookla: all the major religions have the same basic beliefs - believing and accepting is fine and dandy, but if you dont actually try and follow the path, and regret and attempt to repent your mistakes, you go see the other guy.

Peter Ahlstrom

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Re: General Religious discussion
« Reply #257 on: July 06, 2009, 03:57:14 AM »
Not to hear some Christians talk.

Nevertheless:
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Well, I for one, when I die, would like to be remembered as a caring invididual, someone who was respectful of others, donated his time, and money when he had it to helping the less fortunate, someone who loved others and was loved in return. And lets just say this waterfal of yours does exist. When i reach the bottom of it, i would like to think the pond at the bottom would be welcoming of a good person, regardless of whether I believed in the waterfall or not. And I would sincerely hope that the pond would NOT be welcoming of a person who was rude, disrespectful, uncaring of others feelings, even if they acted as they did in the pond's name.
Hear, hear.
« Last Edit: July 06, 2009, 03:59:29 AM by Ookla The Mok »
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Re: General Religious discussion
« Reply #258 on: July 06, 2009, 10:35:56 AM »
I'm going to stir things up a little bit... while I sort of agree with what BookWorm and Ookla have said, I interpret things just slightly differently from them.

You see, there's a lot of misunderstanding of the LDS viewpoint of heaven.  We believe, unequivocably, that there is no way to the Father but through Christ.  And we also believe that if it weren't for Christ's sacrifice, atonement, and triumph over death no one would be resurrected, or return to any sort of heaven, or reconciliation with God of any sort.

At the same time, "heaven" in LDS terminology is slightly different than that used in some Christian churches.  It is technically possible for someone to be in the LDS version of "heaven" and be in the LDS version of "hell" at the same time—for us, "heaven" in this sense is pretty much synonymous with the afterlife.

You see, I believe that hell is a state of anguish which the wicked shall feel.  They are not in a (literal) lake of fire and brimstone, but they are miserable because of their sins.  These, who have rejected God, Christ, and morality, will live without God and Christ.

But then there's this sticky issue of "salvation".  What does it mean?  If it means being God's inheritors, then we've got a pretty narrow definition of it—most will fall short.  If it means resurrection and restoration, then we've got a pretty broad definition of it—this is given freely, even to the wicked.

But here's the crux of the matter:  Most non-LDS Christians (and many of the Saints, too!) think that Latter-day Saints believe that all non-Latter-day Saints will be damned, thrust down to hell, and won't get to live with Jesus in Heaven.  This is, in no uncertain terms, false, according to LDS theology.  Latter-day Saint theology says quite clearly that non-LDS Christians (who are righteous, mind you) will go to a Heaven very much like the one they think they'll go to—they will become ministering angels of Christ.  They will live with Christ, and enjoy basking in his glory.  They will have a sort of joy in all this.  This is the sort of heaven they expect and hope for, and this is the sort of heaven they will receive.

We, as Latter-day Saints, simply believe they could have done better (Rom. 8:17, Col. 3:24, etc.).
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mtbikemom

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Re: General Religious discussion
« Reply #259 on: July 06, 2009, 11:16:32 PM »
So, the lake of fire is a metaphor or a poetic device, not a real thing?  (Made originally for the devil and his angels, not for man, btw . . . but some choose it by rejecting the free gift of God.  God never sent anyone to hell, they send themselves.)  How about "weeping and gnashing of teeth?"  And why did Jesus speak more about hell, as a really awful, real place, than he did about heaven, also as a real place?  Check it for yourself.  One cannot rationally accept heaven and reject hell without rejecting what Jesus taught.

How can it not be obvious that the writings that you consider holy and indisputable have re-interpreted and changed this most basic of Jesus's teachings, our eternal destiny.  Whoever you think Jesus is and was, I would like to state this unequivocally and I can prove it to all who are really interested: The Bible and the LDS Church's scriptures teach different and, in some major places, opposing doctrines.  The Book of Mormon is your waterfall and there is no gentle pond at the bottom, dear ones.  The "scout" that you are relying on was unreliable.  While Mormons are some of my favorite people in the whole world, I believe this is true and important and millions of mainline Christians agree.  I'm just the one with the great big mouth on your forum.  Call me Jonah, though I am not nearly as big a jerk.  I'd bake you a pie or a cake if I could! ;)

Bagley's aforementioned book does a much better job than I could ever do explaining some foundational things from which I arrive at my conclusions about Smith and Young.  Bagley is no anti-Mormon and neither was Juanita Brooks.  These are pure historians who simply tried to tell the truth and ask some important questions.  Please read their books, but especially Will Bagley's Blood of the Prophets.  He is not even a born-again Christian! 

Ookla, I left out some details for simplicity's sake, but they are important.  My salvation story, which I will not bore you with, includes a vision experience and a lot of crying.  I had been agreeing with the Bible, going to church and acting like a Christian, or what I thought was a Christian, for many months before I realized I was missing the most important thing: realizing that all my sins had put Jesus on the cross just as much as the worst sinner's.  At that moment, I gave my life to him completely (asking forgiveness and turning from my sin) and he has been changing me ever since, guiding me and actively loving me, continuing to bless me with "the fellowship of his sufferings."

 Many born-agains believe OSAS (once saved, always saved), but I do not.  We are allowed such disagreements, I believe, but I also believe that certain egregious sins (there are several lists in the New Testament) separate one from the "True Vine" and that heartfelt repentance is necessary once again in order to be restored to salvation.  This is not a popular modern belief and, I believe, is the excuse many so-called believers use to practice all kinds of lawlessness (from gambling to extortion to fornication . . . see 1 Cor. 6:9 & 10 for more), yet be protected by one prayer they might have said at a young age.  On that one point, I am more Mormon than modern Christian!

So, if you can tell me, are there any special things that one must do, ceremonies or such, to reach the Mormon's better heaven rather than the lesser one that you believe I am headed for?  You don't have to describe them unless you really want to.  Do the Book of Mormon, the Doctrine and Covenants, etc . . . supersede the Old and New Testaments when there are conflicts?  Is my statement that there are disagreements between the two another point of unreconcilable contention?  Just curious.




origamikaren

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Re: General Religious discussion
« Reply #260 on: July 07, 2009, 04:42:31 AM »
Since mtbikemom keeps harping on the Blood of the Prophets book, I decided to look it up and see what it's about. The subtitle told me all I needed to know: Brigham Young and the Massacre at Mountain Meadows.  Here is a quote from the top Amazon review:
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Bagley is subject to criticism because much of any account of the massacre is simply "interpretation". Bagley chooses to interpret evidence to blame church leaders. In fact, the evidence may be capable of different interpretations. Perhaps, Bagley doesn't give Brigham Young enough credit for the letter he sent to the Southern Utah communities instructing them to leave the pioneers alone. (which somehow arrived just a day or two too late to prevent he massacre). Also, its difficult to rely on much of anything John D. Lee said. Lee wrote and said many contradictory things about the massacre. Additionally, his statements may have been motivated by a desire to escape criminal responsibility for his acts. Much of the other evidence in the book is both dated and circumstantial.

However, if there is a conclusion that can be drawn from the book it is this. The true and complete story of the massacre has never been told. Obviously, there is much more to it than has ever been explained. That the church participated in a coverup of the events cannot be denied. And, one has to ask why, if no one "higher up" had any culpability for what occurred.

I find it interesting that so many people focus on this one act of violence.  There is no denying that it happened, that more people were guilty than were charged criminally for the crime, and that it was a very bad thing that they did.  However, it is the ONLY time the early Church members did anything like it.  Never before (when they were being massacred in Missouri and at Haun's Mill) or since (when the United States government was systematically hunting down and imprisoning church leaders) has any church leader advocated violence against the very real enemies of the Church.  Those that were involved in Mt. Meadows did and will pay a spiritual price for their actions, and will not escape the judgment of God for their actions without sufficient repentance (and what is "sufficient" is up to God). Nobody know what Brigham Young did or did not do or think about the subject, except for the very scant evidence which is subject to interpretation.  We do know that he made it clear afterwords that the massacre was the wrong decision, and nothing like it was to happen again.  And nothing ever did.

Compare that with the history of the Crusades, the Pogroms, and the hundreds of years of wars, rape and pillage in Europe all in the name of spreading true Christianity, not to mention the Holocaust, and I think that our fruits speak pretty well.

There are several "special things" that one must do in order to reach the highest degree of glory in heaven.  First, is to have Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ. Second is Repentance. Third is Baptism (by someone with the proper priesthood authority) by Immersion for the Remission of Sins. Fourth is the Laying on of Hands for the Gift of the Holy Ghost.  (see http://scriptures.lds.org/a_of_f/1/4#4)  All of these are things that Christ told his followers in the Early Christian Church to do, so we believe that in doing them, we are following Christ.

These four things happen in the process of joining the LDS Church.  After that, one must endure to the end, continually repenting and striving toward perfection, always doing your best to grow towards being more like Jesus.  There are other ordinances in the Temple, including being married and sealed to your family, that are also necessary if you want to have the eternal family that we believe makes Heaven such a nice place.

The lake of fire may be either real or a metaphor.  It really doesn't matter which, because the weeping and wailing and gnashing of teeth are very real.  If a person rejects the atonement of Christ, they will suffer for their own sins, and that will not be a good thing. Where Mormons disagree with some other religions is whether there is a chance to accept Christ as your personal savior and receive the necessary ordinances after you've died.  We believe that there is.   (see http://scriptures.lds.org/a_of_f/1/2-3#2)

As for disagreements between the Bible and our other scriptures, we believe that there are far fewer points of contention than you make out.  We do believe that not all of the gospel was revealed to the people in the Bible, and that not all that was revealed was written down.  We believe that in some specific instances (such as when Moses came down from Mt. Sinai and found the Israelites worshiping idols) the Lord took away the higher law and gave the people something that they could understand better.  We believe that through the centuries the Bible text has been changed both by innocent errors in translation and transcription, and by deliberate means (such as at some synod or other which I can't be bothered to look up right now).  The Joseph Smith Translation of the Bible highlights some of these errors, and interprets some passages where the meanings of words have changed over time, but it was not completed, and is not exhaustive.  We believe that the Bible is the word of God as far as it is translated correctly, but we don't believe that it is His last and final word.  We believe that as society and technology changes, specific church programs and traditions may need to change, but the principles they are based on do not change.  The Bible  has very little to say about internet pornography for instance, and modern revelation is needed to help us fight this new threat.  (see http://scriptures.lds.org/a_of_f/1/8-9#8)

As for which source trumps another, it really doesn't come up that often.We treat the Standard Works (Old Testament, New Testament, Book of Mormon, Doctrine and Covenants and Pearl of Great Price) as scripture, and where there is apparent conflict, it's often the case that an older work is simply clarified expanded or explained by a newer work, and when you understand what each is saying, there is no conflict at all.  We believe that the statements of modern prophets and other Church Leaders during General Conference are as close as you can get to scripture without being officially canonized (though occasionally, there will be edits made between the talk given and the published version if there are doctrinal errors). Where these disagree with the scriptures it's often on a matter of current Church programs or cultural traditions (like wearing prayer shawls or having women cover their heads). Other statements by the General Authorities may be intended only for a specific group of people, or in the context of other talks given at the same meeting, so we're asked not to transcribe and pass around what was said in Stake and Regional Conferences.  Sometimes, when General Authorities are speaking in an unofficial context, they say things that are simply opinion, and as humans, we can all make mistakes.  That's why we don't claim that our General Authorities are infallible (like the Pope).



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Re: General Religious discussion
« Reply #261 on: July 07, 2009, 07:03:54 AM »
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Whoever you think Jesus is and was, I would like to state this unequivocally and I can prove it to all who are really interested: The Bible and the LDS Church's scriptures teach different and, in some major places, opposing doctrines.

And I can say this unequivocally:  you are incorrect.  If you think this is so, you either misunderstand the Bible, or LDS Scripture, or both.  The Book of Mormon no more contradicts the Bible than the Bible contradicts itself.

Relating to what Origamikaren said, Eusebius, one of the early Christian scholars, said that in his day it was difficult to find two versions of the Bible which were similar, because so much alteration of the text was going on in his day, some 1700 years ago.

I will also repeat here that we're not going to devolve this thread into a religious scripture-bashing tit-for-tat which is most likely to turn into a flame war.  If you'd like to discuss this particular issue with me separately via PM or over AIM, you are welcome to; I would personally prefer IM; it's quicker.
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sortitus

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Re: General Religious discussion
« Reply #262 on: July 07, 2009, 08:55:40 AM »
Third opinion on the scriptural issue: Joseph Smith did a good job at knitting together holes in the bible to make scriptures more applicable to his time. The BoM has very little new religious content with battles throughout. Reads like a two centuries old, less metaphorical CS Lewis novel. Again, this is just my opinion.

I think that (in a religious discussion) people take offense because everyone speaks of their beliefs as fact. We all know that the discussion is a discussion of opinions, and to keep throwing in IMOs and "no offense"s just gets in the way of discussion. On the other hand, putting those in can help you sound less rude when disagreeing. Your mileage may vary.

The waterfall metaphor is interesting, but still assumes that you have irrefutable evidence. More accurate would be to say that those warning of the waterfall believe that they have power that enables them to predict the future. Everyone is in the boat in the first place and cannot avoid the waterfall. They can only protect themselves as best they can in case of an accident. Metaphors are never perfect, however, so this is just the best I could do to try to correct what I saw as faulty abstract reasoning. My abstract reasoning is soooo much better. :P;)

To assume that the lake of fire and brimstone is literal because of weeping and wailing and gnashing of teeth is pretty silly. By the time they die, most people have made a choice that made them cry. Whether it be sticking a coat hanger into a power outlet or a less physical experience, the emotional trauma is still there.

As a more direct answer to the LDS belief of heaven, they believe that there are four basic levels you can go to. First is the Celestial Kingdom, a place reserved for those who have received all LDS ordinances. Second is the Telestial Kingdom, where good people who are not LDS go. Third is the Terrestrial Kingdom, where all sinners (including fornicators and murderers) go. Last is outer darkness (Outer Darkness?), where Satan and his angels live and you can only go if you have been converted and turned away from God in willful rebellion. The first three are all good places, and have varying degrees within them. How it was explained to me is that Terrestrial is basically what we have now, and what most people call "hell", Telestial is the standard Christian portrayal of heaven, and Celestial is the true heaven, where people are in a constant state of Joy, everything is literally perfect, etc., etc. Plus, you get friends and family in the top slot. That certainly trumps singing praises to somebody 24/7 in my book.

One thing that I find enormously annoying about most Christians is that they assume that because you do not believe in their god that you not only do not believe in any god, but that you lack any beliefs or morals whatsoever. I have a belief system, and morals as well. I may believe in no god, one god, or many gods. My religion is not taken seriously by, well, basically anyone. Hence I do not disclose it. If I were to disclose it on this thread, I'm sure that some of you would look it up and point out its doctrinal holes. My religion is cheese. Or gravy. Maybe it's cheese and gravy. In any case, we've all studied our individual religions more than the other people in this thread, unless we are truly ignorant. In which case we would be asking questions in earnest about religion in general or a specific religion, not debating theological issues with each other. This thread is not here for any of us to attempt to convert people (unless they ask for it). It's here to allow us to discuss General Religious and his military exploits in the Antarctic or some such nonsense.
« Last Edit: July 07, 2009, 08:58:07 AM by sortitus »
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Re: General Religious discussion
« Reply #263 on: July 07, 2009, 12:21:51 PM »
As a more direct answer to the LDS belief of heaven, they believe that there are four basic levels you can go to. First is the Celestial Kingdom, a place reserved for those who have received all LDS ordinances. Second is the Telestial Kingdom, where good people who are not LDS go. Third is the Terrestrial Kingdom, where all sinners (including fornicators and murderers) go. Last is outer darkness (Outer Darkness?), where Satan and his angels live and you can only go if you have been converted and turned away from God in willful rebellion. The first three are all good places, and have varying degrees within them. How it was explained to me is that Terrestrial is basically what we have now, and what most people call "hell", Telestial is the standard Christian portrayal of heaven, and Celestial is the true heaven, where people are in a constant state of Joy, everything is literally perfect, etc., etc. Plus, you get friends and family in the top slot. That certainly trumps singing praises to somebody 24/7 in my book.

You're sort of right on this, but you get some important particulars wrong: you've got the names of the Terrestrial and Telestial mixed up, you oversimplify the differentiations and characteristics of these in a way which might be unhelpful for some, and I'm not sure you entirely understand the concept of Outer Darkness, either (not that you'd need to!)  Frankly, however, discussion of the "Kingdoms" really need not be significant to those who are not Latter-day Saints; it's about what they convey, and the underlying principles behind them, not the silly names (meaning "of the sky", "of earth", and "of far away") or strict definitions of what they contain.

Quote
I have a belief system, and morals as well. I may believe in no god, one god, or many gods. My religion is not taken seriously by, well, basically anyone. Hence I do not disclose it. If I were to disclose it on this thread, I'm sure that some of you would look it up and point out its doctrinal holes. My religion is cheese. Or gravy. Maybe it's cheese and gravy.

Now I have to know what you are!  You can't mention your religion and then not disclose it!

Quote
In any case, we've all studied our individual religions more than the other people in this thread, unless we are truly ignorant. In which case we would be asking questions in earnest about religion in general or a specific religion, not debating theological issues with each other. This thread is not here for any of us to attempt to convert people (unless they ask for it). It's here to allow us to discuss General Religious and his military exploits in the Antarctic or some such nonsense.

Hear, hear.  Discussion will be most helpful so long as we focus on discussing our own religions more than the religions of others.  And I'd like to second the thought that we're not here to convert anyone.  We're here to foster greater understanding.
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Reaves

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Re: General Religious discussion
« Reply #264 on: July 07, 2009, 04:26:40 PM »
Wow, its been a while since I've commented on this thread. I guess I'll pick up where I left off :P
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origamikaren: Latter Day Saints believe that we were sent to earth to try to become more like God.  We were to be tested to see who would do the best they could with what they'd been given, and who would be decieved, take the easy way out, or just plain rebel (Think of Christ's Parable of the talents in the New Testament) 
While of course we believe that life is a test, Reformed Christian theology differs from this. We believe that mankind was created to demonstrate God's glory: either by showing His grace and love through repentance and acceptance of Christ's gift, or by showing His perfect justice and hatred of sin. Although I might be oversimplifying when I say this, I still think its helpful to see the two perspectives as man-centered and God-centered, respectively.
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origamikaren :  Those who passed the test would be given more responsibilities, and more opportunities to learn and grow until they became like God, having all that he has. If you have a view of the afterlife that includes Eternal Progression, active work, and a purpose to continue existing, then you can begin to see the reasons for so many of the commandments and prophetic counsel that others see as so restricting. If you don't believe in such an afterlife, then the commandments could easily seem like "a tool to keep the masses in line."  What's the point of exercising such self control if your reward is to sit around on a cloud playing a harp... as an asexual being? 
I'm not sure that  this is what you are saying, but I'll be clear anyway: there are more alternatives than just the LDS  view of heaven, including deification and eternal progression (I think I know what you mean by that ) and believing that all we will do is become a harp-strumming cherub! I believe that we will continually grow and progress in knowledge of God and the universe and love, awe, and respectful fear of our Creator, without ever becoming like Him. This might seem like a logical fallacy, but you have to remember that God is infinite, in every sense of the word. His character can never be exhausted; no matter how long you spend in His presence, finite mortal beings can never discover everything about Him.

Origami, thanks for your explanation of the Mormon view of hell. I was really struggling to reconcile one of Ookla's earlier comments, that everyone would live in a really nice place, and the Biblical and apparently Mormon view of hell.

mtbike: the waterfall scenario is a good analogy, except for one problem. there are those who do not believe there is a waterfall and their pleasant river cruise will go on just fine, after all we scouted ahead to make sure. And we can assure you, there is no waterfall.
That would be a neat trick ;)
But then there's this sticky issue of "salvation".  What does it mean?  If it means being God's inheritors, then we've got a pretty narrow definition of it—most will fall short.
I'm curious; why exactly do LDS generally define salvation as inheriting all that God has  (plan of salvation) ? It seems to travel tangentially to what the common definition of salvation really is.
Quote
  sal·va·tion   (sāl-vā'shən)   
n. 
Preservation or deliverance from destruction, difficulty, or evil.
A source, means, or cause of such preservation or deliverance.
Deliverance from the power or penalty of sin; redemption.
The agent or means that brings about such deliverance.
Christianity
Deliverance from the power or penalty of sin; redemption.
The agent or means that brings about such deliverance.

[Middle English savacioun, from Old French sauvacion, from Late Latin salvātiō, salvātiōn-, from salvātus, past participle of salvāre, to save; see salvage.]
sal·va'tion·al adj.
The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition


Many born-agains believe OSAS (once saved, always saved), but I do not.  We are allowed such disagreements, I believe, but I also believe that certain egregious sins (there are several lists in the New Testament) separate one from the "True Vine" and that heartfelt repentance is necessary once again in order to be restored to salvation.  This is not a popular modern belief and, I believe, is the excuse many so-called believers use to practice all kinds of lawlessness (from gambling to extortion to fornication . . . see 1 Cor. 6:9 & 10 for more), yet be protected by one prayer they might have said at a young age.  On that one point, I am more Mormon than modern Christian!
Oh...you're one of those ;) Jk. Generally I would define this as an Arminian perspective, as opposed to Reformed which I mostly always agree with. I would say that the person who prayed as an eight or nine-year old and then went right on "practicing all kinds of lawlessness" into their twenties and thirties never really repented of their sins and trusted in Christ for salvation. However, and this point must be made, I believe that God does not choose to save people because of His foreknowledge of how they would live as a Christian; grace is all undeserved. The sad truth is that some genuine born-again Christians live worse, more sin-entrenched lives than some unbelievers.
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origamikarenCompare that [Mountain Meadows massacre] with the history of the Crusades, the Pogroms, and the hundreds of years of wars, rape and pillage in Europe all in the name of spreading true Christianity, not to mention the Holocaust, and I think that our fruits speak pretty well.
 
This is a valid point, but I think there is a difference with comparing the life of Brigham Young, probably the second-most well-known Mormon leader after Joseph Smith, with the lives of Popes and kings  whom most Christians would not identify with at all and with whom many Christians might say were not born again.
In addition, I find your statement that the Holocaust was committed in the name of Christianity utterly disgusting. And I know what Hitler said about the Jews being to blame for killing Jesus.

We believe that as society and technology changes, specific church programs and traditions may need to change, but the principles they are based on do not change.  The Bible  has very little to say about internet pornography for instance, and modern revelation is needed to help us fight this new threat.  (see http://scriptures.lds.org/a_of_f/1/8-9#8)
I would agree with everything here except your last sentence. The Bible says nothing about internet pornography, but it has lots to say about lusting after women. I don't think we face any challenges categorically different from what the Christians in ages past faced. 1 Corinthians 10:13 "No temptation has overtaken you that is not common to man. God is faithful, and he will not let you be tempted beyond your ability, but with the temptation he will also provide the way of escape, that you may be able to endure it."

The waterfall metaphor is interesting, but still assumes that you have irrefutable evidence. More accurate would be to say that those warning of the waterfall believe that they have power that enables them to predict the future.
Eh, more like we believe the waterfall spoke to us and offered a chance to avoid it, because someone labored for years building a bridge and eventually died finishing it, but was later resurrected. And with that, the metaphor officially fails haha :P
I have a belief system, and morals as well. I may believe in no god, one god, or many gods. My religion is not taken seriously by, well, basically anyone. Hence I do not disclose it. If I were to disclose it on this thread, I'm sure that some of you would look it up and point out its doctrinal holes. My religion is cheese. Or gravy. Maybe it's cheese and gravy.
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mtbikemom

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Re: General Religious discussion
« Reply #265 on: July 07, 2009, 06:07:04 PM »
I will also repeat here that we're not going to devolve this thread into a religious scripture-bashing tit-for-tat which is most likely to turn into a flame war.  If you'd like to discuss this particular issue with me separately via PM or over AIM, you are welcome to; I would personally prefer IM; it's quicker.

What, and deprive all those lurker-types the fruits of my insightful research?  O.K., O.K., we'll continue this by PM.  And you can tell me where to send your pie.  Or cake . . .

mtbikemom

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Re: General Religious discussion
« Reply #266 on: July 07, 2009, 07:10:36 PM »
The waterfall metaphor is interesting, but still assumes that you have irrefutable evidence. More accurate would be to say that those warning of the waterfall believe that they have power that enables them to predict the future. Everyone is in the boat in the first place and cannot avoid the waterfall. They can only protect themselves as best they can in case of an accident.

To further belabor my imperfect metaphor (which I borrowed from Ray Comfort of The Ambassador's Alliance), I do not have evidence, but confident faith which is a gift of the Spirit.  My faith is based on Biblical prophesy, which has so far never been proved false in any instance (they keep digging up ancient cities that the Bible speaks of and shutting up the skeptics) and by the lives of people I know who have abandoned the doomed-but-pleasant boat-ride-to-destruction and find themselves safe on the shore.  Safe for all eternity! 

   The shore (or bridge, to borrow from Reaves) is not easy, sometimes downright unpleasant, but it leads to all things good for eternity.  "For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us."  (Romans 8:18)  There is nothing in the Bible which speaks of different levels of glory, btw, for different kinds of believers.  We are all going to be "co-inheritors with Christ," not just those who have been given some new revelation.  I personally believe that any Mormon who counts Jesus death as payment for their sin and has repented in their heart is going to the same place as me. 

The pleasant cruise, which most are choosing and which seems so logical and right, reminds me of this verse in Paul's letter to the Thessalonians (5:3): "For when they say, 'Peace and safety!' then sudden destruction comes upon them . . . and they shall not escape."  This is written in the context of the "day of the Lord," which day is the day of our death as well as His return.

I was incorrect when I attributed this statement to Jesus, but we believe that "every word" of the Bible is "God-breathed" as it claims to be, so when James wrote that "pure and undefiled religion before God and the Father is this: to visit orphans and widows in their trouble, and to keep oneself unspotted from the world," he was speaking for God.  (James 1:27)

Since you claim to be interested in religion, dear Sort, please tell me.  Does this characterize your life?  I seek to make you temporarily miserable because I truly care about you, risking the wrath of Knights and dread Ooklas!  We try to "be perfect as he is perfect" but we fail every time.  God wants us to fail and acknowledge our failure so that we ask for His help.  He will not force His way in, but gives everyone a chance.  Until we "stand on that beautiful shore" (from a hymn I've heard somewhere), asking forgiveness in humility, we cannot even begin to approach true religion. 

   The rich young ruler (Luke 18:18-27) probably had better morals and ethics than any of us, but walked away rejecting Jesus' free gift because he could not give up all his comforts.  He was trying to tell Him who sees into our hearts, much like you have, that he had done everything right, or at least right enough, that he had lived well and planned to keep on doing it, but did not realize that his possessions had become his idol.  He wanted to stay in the boat and avoid the consequences, but that is not possible. 

   "Look at all these great, interesting, carefree people in my boat!" one might say.  "Look at all those ridiculous Jesus freaks waving their hands over there and telling me to get out of the boat, get all wet and join them.  That's crazy!"  Unless, in fact, there is a waterfall somewhere ahead and there is no surviving the plunge.  And there is rarely time for last-minute repentance.

mtlhddoc2

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Re: General Religious discussion
« Reply #267 on: July 07, 2009, 07:25:50 PM »
Quick point...  what ancient cities have they dug up that were not mentioned in other texts besides the bible? Did they dig up Atlantis while I was sleeping?

origamikaren

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Re: General Religious discussion
« Reply #268 on: July 07, 2009, 09:30:43 PM »
Quote
This is a valid point, but I think there is a difference with comparing the life of Brigham Young, probably the second-most well-known Mormon leader after Joseph Smith, with the lives of Popes and kings  whom most Christians would not identify with at all and with whom many Christians might say were not born again.
In addition, I find your statement that the Holocaust was committed in the name of Christianity utterly disgusting. And I know what Hitler said about the Jews being to blame for killing Jesus.

Reaves, I meant that to be utterly disgusting.  That's how I feel about people judging me and my religion by one small group of people whose actions don't represent me or my beliefs. I don't believe that the Holocaust was committed in the name of true Christianity. Since I claim to be a Christian, I feel that I have inherited as much from the political and military history of Christianity as any Catholic or Protestant.  To me, that history is a warning that blind devotion can go too far.  It's also one of the main reasons for our Article of Faith #11: We claim the privelege of worshipping Almighty God according to the dictates of our own conscience and allow all men the same privledge let them worship how where or what they may.


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mtbikemom

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Re: General Religious discussion
« Reply #269 on: July 08, 2009, 12:21:59 AM »
Hey, buddy, long time-no argue!

Quick point...  what ancient cities have they dug up that were not mentioned in other texts besides the bible? Did they dig up Atlantis while I was sleeping?

   http://www.apologeticspress.org/articles/2020  is a nice article about the problems and benefits of archaeology in relation to Biblical sites.  It corroborates my original statement ad adds more, some of which you will like, I think.

   I may or may not research for you about cities not mentioned outside the biblical record, but I would rather comment on your statement that all the major religions have the same basic beliefs - believing and accepting is fine and dandy, but if you don't actually try and follow the path, and regret and attempt to repent your mistakes, you go see the other guy.  All religions do not teach equality of women in the afterlife, faith-based salvation (most of them require works of various kinds to achieve Nirvana, etc . . . ) or substitutionary sacrifice for sin.  Lumping all religions into a neat box that you can then reject out of hand is probably satisfying, but not very scholarly.  Not to mention dangerous if one of them turns out to be true!