Author Topic: General Religious discussion  (Read 54383 times)

Reaves

  • Level 23
  • *
  • Posts: 1226
  • Fell Points: 1
    • View Profile
Re: General Religious discussion
« Reply #135 on: May 01, 2009, 02:21:23 AM »
It seems by your argument Renoard that all serious Bible scholars would interpret all scripture the same way, and clearly that is not the case.


In any case, when Kaz said I know people who think his mind became a sheeps  I have a feeling he may have been referring to Nebuchadnezzar's seven years of insanity. However, he could have just been joking. (Who knows, he may actually know some people who believe King David had the mind of a sheep. No wonder he doesn't go to church anymore :P )
« Last Edit: May 01, 2009, 09:35:22 PM by Reaves »
Quote from: VegasDev
RJF: "AHA! You fell victim to one of the classic blunders! The most famous is never get involved in a land war in Cairhien, but only slightly less well-known is this: never go in against a warder when he is only the distraction! Get him Rand! Buzzzzzzz!

Renoard

  • Level 20
  • *
  • Posts: 989
  • Fell Points: 0
  • spurius non lucrorum
    • View Profile
    • Albion
Re: General Religious discussion
« Reply #136 on: May 01, 2009, 02:24:58 AM »
@reaves I think Kaz is 18.

But yeah that was probably not (ahem) literally true.
You can always get what you want if you never count the cost.

Patriotic Kaz

  • Level 30
  • *
  • Posts: 1746
  • Fell Points: 0
  • Antagonist of the Ages
    • View Profile
Re: General Religious discussion
« Reply #137 on: May 01, 2009, 02:36:37 AM »
you know if you look at my profile there is a peice of cake...


And i meant exactly as i said i was raised as a literalist...some of the southern baptist are cucoos it was his punishment for ignoring something or other and yes i know of the Babylonian King who thought he was a cow for 7 years... that punishment was over a gold statue wasn't it?
« Last Edit: May 01, 2009, 02:39:27 AM by Champion Kaz »
"Words are double edged blades. Only the great and the foolish play with knives." - Kaz the Buddah

"Take off your sandals, for you are posting on holy ground." -  Yahweh Kaz

"Chaos, go to your room!" - Momma Kaz

Peter Ahlstrom

  • Administrator
  • Level 59
  • *****
  • Posts: 4902
  • Fell Points: 2
  • Assistant to Mr. Sanderson
    • View Profile
Re: General Religious discussion
« Reply #138 on: May 01, 2009, 04:47:28 AM »
If you want a British Dictionary, there is only one:  OED.
I know Collins made a big stir last year when they announced they were removing some words from their dictionary.
http://entertainment.timesonline.co.uk/tol/arts_and_entertainment/books/article4799560.ece
If no one cared about the Collins dictionary it wouldn't have caused a stir.

The OED is exhaustive whether you're looking for US or UK words; they never delete words and they have citations for everything. That doesn't necessarily make it a good dictionary for everyday use though. :)
All Saiyuki fans should check out Dazzle! Emotionally wrenching action-adventure and quirky humor! (At least read chapter 6 and tell me if you're not hooked.) Volume 10 out now!

Renoard

  • Level 20
  • *
  • Posts: 989
  • Fell Points: 0
  • spurius non lucrorum
    • View Profile
    • Albion
Re: General Religious discussion
« Reply #139 on: May 01, 2009, 04:54:48 AM »
@kaz Not precisely. It was punishment for denying the Jewish people the right to be Jews and reject worship of the King.
« Last Edit: May 01, 2009, 08:44:50 AM by Renoard »
You can always get what you want if you never count the cost.

The Jade Knight

  • Moderator
  • Level 39
  • *****
  • Posts: 2507
  • Fell Points: 1
  • Lord of the Absent-Minded
    • View Profile
    • Don't go here
Re: General Religious discussion
« Reply #140 on: May 01, 2009, 08:24:02 AM »
After you have gotten at what the author is intentionally communicating then the questions of whether this is allegorical or literally truth come into the equation not before. 

The problem with this is that it's circular:  The author's meaning is understood only through textual interpretation, which involves reading text as either literal or metaphor.

Quote
It's tantamount to saying a divinity student who has immersed himself in biblical language, archeology, sociology and hermeneutics is just some uneducated buffoon who picked up a Bible and decided that he was reading a science text written in English 2 years ago.  Even your mocking argument about the sheep writing poetry doesn't hold up.

I don't think it is at all.  It's like having a professor of Linguistics interpret one phenomenon one way, and having another interpret it another way... and this happens all the freaking time.
"Never argue with a fool; they'll bring you down to their level, and then beat you with experience."

darxbane

  • Level 17
  • *
  • Posts: 839
  • Fell Points: 0
    • View Profile
Re: General Religious discussion
« Reply #141 on: May 01, 2009, 04:15:46 PM »
Sarah, are you really that surprised?  After all, God walks among men for most of Genesis, particularly with Abraham.  I have never asked about the sheep thing.  I'll let you know. You can get a grasp of their philosophy by reading about Kent Hovind.  It appears Kaz was raised by a Baptist sect similar to the people I know.
I wanted to write something profound here, but I couldn't think of anything.

SarahG

  • Level 13
  • *
  • Posts: 544
  • Fell Points: 0
    • View Profile
Re: General Religious discussion
« Reply #142 on: May 05, 2009, 07:03:51 PM »
Renoard, the literalists I am thinking of are not serious Bible scholars who have done their best to use all the tools at their disposal to determine the author's original intent, and determined that he was writing a literal, historical account.  I can respect them, even when I disagree with their conclusions.  Not that I always do disagree, of course - I believe that much of the Bible is meant to be read as historical narrative.

I'm thinking of people who say, "Why bother going to seminary and studying all those languages and history and archeology?  You don't need any of those liberal intellectuals to tell you what the Bible means - just read what it says and believe it.  Forget the lexicons and commentaries; all you need is the Scripture and the Holy Spirit.  Research just complicates the simplicity of faith.  Just take the Bible literally: God said it, I believe it, that settles it."  This is the attitude I try to combat with the Psalm 23 question, because it seems to me that these people are reading the text as if it were a science textbook written two years ago in English.  What's worse, they seem to believe that anyone who reads it differently is doubting the veracity of God.

Another, perhaps more pertinent question I like to ask these people is whether they believe in stoning rebellious children, as Moses's law requires.  Basically, what I'm trying to get them to admit is that they do make interpretive decisions and that it's not as simple as just "believing everything the Bible says."  I want to convince them that actually studying the Bible (including other relevant disciplines) is a worthwhile endeavor.  Since we all make assumptions and interpretive decisions, it's better to have some solid foundation for those choices than to make them intuitively.  Does this make sense?  Do you understand what I'm trying to argue here?  Have you met these people, and how do you deal with them?

By the way, if your big words and references to divinity students were intended to intimidate me, I should probably let you know they aren't working.  You see, I myself have been a divinity student; I earned a master's in biblical languages, and in the process I did occasionally encounter such terms as "hermeneutics" and "exegesis".   ;)
He ate my horse.

Patriotic Kaz

  • Level 30
  • *
  • Posts: 1746
  • Fell Points: 0
  • Antagonist of the Ages
    • View Profile
Re: General Religious discussion
« Reply #143 on: May 05, 2009, 09:19:00 PM »
Yeah i've heard that hogwash from several sources but not all the literalist belive that..they think it is unecessary to have a seminary degree to understand God's intent but they believe it is a good thing to understand the background...that is until your ignorance vanishes and you realize that parables were a common occurence if one did not have all the facts, in that time period...
"Words are double edged blades. Only the great and the foolish play with knives." - Kaz the Buddah

"Take off your sandals, for you are posting on holy ground." -  Yahweh Kaz

"Chaos, go to your room!" - Momma Kaz

Reaves

  • Level 23
  • *
  • Posts: 1226
  • Fell Points: 1
    • View Profile
Re: General Religious discussion
« Reply #144 on: June 01, 2009, 03:23:48 AM »
So I thought we had some good discussions going on here at one point and I really enjoined them. I guess I'll try to jump-start it again with a question, directed at the LDS members here:

What are some of the big doctrines that differentiate Mormonism from other Christian denominations? I understand that most likely not all Mormons believe the same thing, I just mean in general. For example, what do you guys believe about God? The person of Jesus Christ, his divinity and his humanity? The doctrine of sin?

Also even if you're not Mormon feel free to jump in :D
Quote from: VegasDev
RJF: "AHA! You fell victim to one of the classic blunders! The most famous is never get involved in a land war in Cairhien, but only slightly less well-known is this: never go in against a warder when he is only the distraction! Get him Rand! Buzzzzzzz!

Frog

  • Level 13
  • *
  • Posts: 578
  • Fell Points: 0
  • "Have a popover, Froggie!"
    • View Profile
Re: General Religious discussion
« Reply #145 on: June 01, 2009, 05:03:29 AM »
What are some of the big doctrines that differentiate Mormonism from other Christian denominations? I understand that most likely not all Mormons believe the same thing, I just mean in general. For example, what do you guys believe about God? The person of Jesus Christ, his divinity and his humanity? The doctrine of sin?
I love answering these type of honest questions, so I'll go ahead and go first and let the rest of the LDS people feel free to chime in and clarify anything I may leave out:

God- He is our Heavenly Father-the father of our spirits- and directed the creation of earth and our mortal bodies. He is a perfected being and as our father, his greatest desire is to see that his children reach his same level through the tests of mortality. A veil was place over the earth so we would not remember the pre-earth life where we lived with our Father in Heaven, but we have been given prophets and commandments to show us the correct path to progress while retaining our agency to do otherwise.

While we are expected to progress and do all we can to keep the commandments and become perfected, we all will fall short and as no imperfect being can be in the presence of our Heavenly Father, we stand in need of a mediator to bridge the gap of Justice and Mercy.

Jesus Christ- He is our eldest spirit brother and created the earth under the direction of his Heavenly Father. He was the literal son of God and a mortal mother, Mary. Because he was mortal he could understand the sorrows of the world and how it sometimes results in sin. Because he was divine he could overcome sin and no one could take his life but he choose to give it. He sacrificed his life and took on the atonement to pay for the sins of those that are willing to repent. He is our mediator with the father and will make up the difference of sin after all that we can do.

Other differences you may see in our religion compared to other mainstream Christian faiths is our belief in continued revelation through the Book of Mormon and current prophets (from Joseph Smith to Thomas Monson) and we also encourage our members to gain their own personal testimony and relationship with God through daily prayer and scripture study.

Oh, and feel free to ask questions, but the church does have a site with a lot of our beliefs spelled out for anyone looking for a specific and credible source: www.mormon.org
« Last Edit: June 01, 2009, 05:09:07 AM by Frog »
I've already conquered the world. This is exactly the way I want it.

Reaves

  • Level 23
  • *
  • Posts: 1226
  • Fell Points: 1
    • View Profile
Re: General Religious discussion
« Reply #146 on: June 02, 2009, 12:06:04 AM »
Hey, thanks for sharing Frog!

I was a little confused over your first paragraph. So you believe we lived in heaven before coming to earth and only live on earth once? What exactly do you mean by God being the father of our spirits? Does this mean something different than being our Father in heaven?

And I was also a bit confused in your paragraph about Jesus Christ. What exactly do you mean by the term "spirit brother"?
I have also heard that Mormons do not believe the Son is completely God, while still having taken a human nature to Himself. I know you don't believe in the Trinity, but you could clarify on this? Do you believe that God the Father created the Son?


I believe in the Trinity -- God the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, three persons in one nature, and that the Son is two natures in one person. I believe in God's omniscience, omnipotence, and omnipresence. I believe that God created human beings sinless, but that because of the sins of Adam and Eve we are now corrupted by sin.

God's justice demands that sin be paid for. He did not have to save anyone but because of His love he chose to save anyone who would believe and trust in His Son, Jesus Christ. He was fully man so that He could fully represent us before God, and fully God so that He could act as God's representative to us.

I believe in justification by faith and not by works. I guess you could say if our sin is a giant pit standing between us and God, the Cross is more of a bridge than a landfill. We can't do anything to fill the pit; any good works we try to fill the pit with is ultimately not enough to save us.

I believe that sanctification is a direct outgrowth of justification. God calls on us to become more and more Christlike, not to earn our salvation but because its closer to how things ought to be.

I go to a non-denominational church. I don't know to what degree Mormons are in tune with Christian public figures, but to give you a better idea of what we believe my senior pastor is Joshua Harris (the guy who wrote I Kissed Dating Goodbye ) or you can visit http://www.covlife.org/about/beliefs
« Last Edit: June 02, 2009, 12:08:35 AM by Reaves »
Quote from: VegasDev
RJF: "AHA! You fell victim to one of the classic blunders! The most famous is never get involved in a land war in Cairhien, but only slightly less well-known is this: never go in against a warder when he is only the distraction! Get him Rand! Buzzzzzzz!

Frog

  • Level 13
  • *
  • Posts: 578
  • Fell Points: 0
  • "Have a popover, Froggie!"
    • View Profile
Re: General Religious discussion
« Reply #147 on: June 02, 2009, 02:09:56 AM »
Great questions and I’m sorry for the confusion. Let me know if this helps (again, anyone else is free to jump in if they would like to clarify):
So you believe we lived in heaven before coming to earth and only live on earth once?
 
Yes. We lived in heaven as spirit children of god. What I mean by that is that God has a perfected physical body but when we were first created, we were only spirits but we still were his literal children. In order to become like him, we had to receive physical bodies and learn to use them properly like he did, which is what this earth life is for. At the second coming, we’ll regain our bodies in a perfected form and those that have lived righteously will continue to progress.

 The Earth was created for that purpose and we do not believe in reincarnation, but I believe there is some doctrine of the Earth being perfected as a home for many  of us after the second coming but I would have to look it up to give you anything more specific than that.

What exactly do you mean by God being the father of our spirits? Does this mean something different than being our Father in heaven?
 
I meant that he created our spirits and is our father in the spiritual sense; you know, just to differentiate him from our mortal fathers.

And I was also a bit confused in your paragraph about Jesus Christ. What exactly do you mean by the term "spirit brother"?
 
Again, that is just to say that we are all brothers and sisters and children of our Heavenly Father. Jesus Christ was the eldest.

I have also heard that Mormons do not believe the Son is completely God, while still having taken a human nature to Himself. I know you don't believe in the Trinity, but you could clarify on this? Do you believe that God the Father created the Son?
 
We believe in the Godhead, which is similar to the Trinity, except to say that while we believe that Heavenly Father, Jesus Christ and the Holy Ghost are all divine, have similar goal and work together for our salvation, they are three separate beings. Heavenly Father the spiritual father of us all and stands at the head. Jesus Christ is his son, both mortally and spiritually, and actively took on the role of the Savior. By doing so he can be correctly titled God as well, but he is still under the authority of his father and acts in his name. The Holy Ghost or Spirit is another separate being; a spirit that has not yet received a mortal body but it is his presence you feel when receiving answers to prayer.

I believe in the Trinity -- God the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, three persons in one nature, and that the Son is two natures in one person. I believe in God's omniscience, omnipotence, and omnipresence. I believe that God created human beings sinless, but that because of the sins of Adam and Eve we are now corrupted by sin.
 
So are you saying that you believe that we are all individually accountable for the sins of Adam?

Our take on that is a little different. We believe that the fall of Adam was an important step in the creation. Not so much that he sinned by leaving the garden, but rather that it showed his choice to leave God's presence and progress as God had intended. In the garden they were childlike and innocent, they couldn't progress because they had never been tempted or had trials that a mortal existence would expose them to. So when they left the Garden, they could be tempted, have trials and sin but they also could learn things they could never learn if they were continually in God's presence and have mortal children. Every person is born innocent and is accountable for their own sins before God.

God's justice demands that sin be paid for. He did not have to save anyone but because of His love he chose to save anyone who would believe and trust in His Son, Jesus Christ. He was fully man so that He could fully represent us before God, and fully God so that He could act as God's representative to us.

I believe in justification by faith and not by works. I guess you could say if our sin is a giant pit standing between us and God, the Cross is more of a bridge than a landfill. We can't do anything to fill the pit; any good works we try to fill the pit with is ultimately not enough to save us.

I believe that sanctification is a direct outgrowth of justification. God calls on us to become more and more Christlike, not to earn our salvation but because its closer to how things ought to be.
So if saving comes by faith, than does that mean that you believe every person will be rewarded equally after this life regardless on how they lived it? Or does God only chose certain people to save? If so, how is this decided? How do you show your belief if not by works?

We believe in the balance of works and faith. You need both. As your analogy shows, we agree that ultimately we cannot save ourselves and Jesus' atonement allows him to bridge that gap if we repent and are baptized in his name, but it is by our works and commitment to give our very best effort in following the commandments that we qualify ourselves for his saving grace.

I hope that you aren't offended by any of my questions. I'm really am curious to know! I studied a lot of religions in college and find it all very interesting, so I'll be sure to check out the link you put up.

Thanks for the fun discussion! :D 
« Last Edit: June 02, 2009, 02:19:08 AM by Frog »
I've already conquered the world. This is exactly the way I want it.

Reaves

  • Level 23
  • *
  • Posts: 1226
  • Fell Points: 1
    • View Profile
Re: General Religious discussion
« Reply #148 on: June 02, 2009, 03:07:42 AM »
Thanks for the quick response! I'm really enjoying the discussion.
Yes. We lived in heaven as spirit children of god. What I mean by that is that God has a perfected physical body but when we were first created, we were only spirits but we still were his literal children. In order to become like him, we had to receive physical bodies and learn to use them properly like he did, which is what this earth life is for. At the second coming, we’ll regain our bodies in a perfected form and those that have lived righteously will continue to progress.

 The Earth was created for that purpose and we do not believe in reincarnation, but I believe there is some doctrine of the Earth being perfected as a home for many  of us after the second coming but I would have to look it up to give you anything more specific than that.
Thanks, yeah this answers my question, but also raises another one. Do you believe that God always had a physical body? That would seem impossible given that He existed before creating the physical universe.
I personally have never really thought deeply about this particular issue, whether the Father has a physical body. There are many references throughout the Bible to a "throne" and Jesus Christ sitting at His "right hand" but those could simply be metaphors or symbolism.

I believe in the Trinity -- God the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, three persons in one nature, and that the Son is two natures in one person. I believe in God's omniscience, omnipotence, and omnipresence. I believe that God created human beings sinless, but that because of the sins of Adam and Eve we are now corrupted by sin.
 
So are you saying that you believe that we are all individually accountable for the sins of Adam?

Our take on that is a little different. We believe that the fall of Adam was an important step in the creation. Not so much that he sinned by leaving the garden, but rather that it showed his choice to leave God's presence and progress as God had intended. In the garden they were childlike and innocent, they couldn't progress because they had never been tempted or had trials that a mortal existence would expose them to. So when they left the Garden, they could be tempted, have trials and sin but they also could learn things they could never learn if they were continually in God's presence and have mortal children. Every person is born innocent and is accountable for their own sins before God.
Basically I am saying that because we are all descendants of Adam, we are all sinful; its in our blood. However, we are judged by God for our own sins. Because we are all children of Adam, we are going to sin. But, if we are born again through belief in and surrender to Jesus Christ, we can overcome the power of sin in our lives. (Though we can never become perfect and without sin in this life.)

I believe that in one sense Adam's sin was a perversion of God's plan, a blight upon the creation He deemed "very good". However, in another sense it was part of His plan all along, so that He could glorify Himself through sending His son to the cross.

God's justice demands that sin be paid for. He did not have to save anyone but because of His love he chose to save anyone who would believe and trust in His Son, Jesus Christ. He was fully man so that He could fully represent us before God, and fully God so that He could act as God's representative to us.

I believe in justification by faith and not by works. I guess you could say if our sin is a giant pit standing between us and God, the Cross is more of a bridge than a landfill. We can't do anything to fill the pit; any good works we try to fill the pit with is ultimately not enough to save us.

I believe that sanctification is a direct outgrowth of justification. God calls on us to become more and more Christlike, not to earn our salvation but because its closer to how things ought to be.
So if saving comes by faith, than does that mean that you believe every person will be rewarded equally after this life regardless on how they lived it? Or does God only chose certain people to save? If so, how is this decided? How do you show your belief if not by works?
God rewards each believer differently based on their works in life. However, the free gift of eternal life is not earned but given to anyone who believes and trusts in Jesus.
However, you are quite right: faith without works is dead. But its the faith that comes first. You can't do your job or work in the soup kitchen for God's glory, for example, until you have a personal relationship with him.
I believe that God directs some people to be saved through the process of election. In case you're unfamiliar with this term (I don't know how Mormon theology is taught :D ) I'll give you Wayne Grudem's definition from his book SYSTEMATIC THEOLOGY. "Election is an act of God before creation in which he chooses some people to be saved, not on account of any foreseen merit in them, but only because of his sovereign good pleasure."
As a result of election, these people through free will come to trust in Jesus for forgiveness of sins and eternal life.


We believe in the balance of works and faith. You need both. As your analogy shows, we agree that ultimately we cannot save ourselves and Jesus' atonement allows him to bridge that gap if we repent and are baptized in his name, but it is by our works and commitment to give our very best effort in following the commandments that we qualify ourselves for his saving grace.
I would say that without any sign of change or growth towards Christ's likeness in a person's life, it would be very difficult to say that they have been saved. Of course, only that person and God know the true answer to that question.

I don't think we can ever do anything to qualify ourselves for grace. It's all undeserved. God doesn't choose to save anyone because He foreknew that they would be a good person in life.
Personally I find this doctrine and some of its implications very hard to swallow. At the same time though, it's incredibly comforting to know that I don't need to worry about messing up; Christ has already purchased me from sin into eternal life.
As a side note, however, I am emphatically not saying that because Christians have trusted in Jesus, they don't have to worry about how they live their lives. There are so many reasons to live a godly life as a Christian. To name a few:
a.) Well, obviously God commands us to follow His commands and become more like Christ.
b.) We want to be a "vessel for noble use", not dis-noble use.
c.) The Bible clearly states that our rewards in heaven are dependent upon our acts in life.
d.) This one really hit it home for me. Each sin I commit now is a sin that Jesus had to pay for on the cross with His life's blood. In a sense, it has already happened, but I still have to make the decision then and there.

Anyway, like I said at the beginning I have really been enjoying this discussion. Anyone else, feel free to jump in! :D

I'm not at all offended by your questions. Its not often I get to have a deep theologically grounded talk with someone of another faith. Thanks for sharing your honest beliefs with me!


Quote from: VegasDev
RJF: "AHA! You fell victim to one of the classic blunders! The most famous is never get involved in a land war in Cairhien, but only slightly less well-known is this: never go in against a warder when he is only the distraction! Get him Rand! Buzzzzzzz!

Frog

  • Level 13
  • *
  • Posts: 578
  • Fell Points: 0
  • "Have a popover, Froggie!"
    • View Profile
Re: General Religious discussion
« Reply #149 on: June 02, 2009, 06:18:39 AM »
Do you believe that God always had a physical body?
Well, this is getting into stuff that I'm not sure I have a full grasp on yet, but I will give it my best shot! We believe that God's time, along with the universe, is one eternal round and has no beginning or end. He is perfect so he bound to follow natural laws including the concept of mater: it is neither created or destroyed only changed and directed. He organized existing intelligence into spirits (us) and we can assume that his assent to Godhood was at least somewhat similar. What I can tell you for sure is that right now he has a body similar to our own but perfected as our bodies were created in his image.   

I believe that in one sense Adam's sin was a perversion of God's plan, a blight upon the creation He deemed "very good". However, in another sense it was part of His plan all along, so that He could glorify Himself through sending His son to the cross.
So if Adam didn't sin, what would be the state of our existence? Would we exist at all? What is your concept of the devil and his role in the Fall?
And if you believe that God and Jesus are the same person, why is he called the son? I guess I just have a hard time understanding the concept of the Trinity in regards to Jesus' earthly ministry. Like who was he praying to if he is God himself?

God rewards each believer differently based on their works in life. However, the free gift of eternal life is not earned but given to anyone who believes and trusts in Jesus.
However, you are quite right: faith without works is dead. But its the faith that comes first. You can't do your job or work in the soup kitchen for God's glory, for example, until you have a personal relationship with him.
Careful, we might be dangerously close to agreeing on that one!  ;) We believe that resurrection of our mortal bodies is free to all men based on grace alone, but progression and life with Heavenly Father requires faith, works and certain ordinances.

I believe that God directs some people to be saved through the process of election. In case you're unfamiliar with this term (I don't know how Mormon theology is taught :D ) I'll give you Wayne Grudem's definition from his book SYSTEMATIC THEOLOGY. "Election is an act of God before creation in which he chooses some people to be saved, not on account of any foreseen merit in them, but only because of his sovereign good pleasure."
As a result of election, these people through free will come to trust in Jesus for forgiveness of sins and eternal life.
Yeah, the closest thing we have that I can think of in that regard is that we believe that some people were given certain tasks or callings before coming down to earth (like those that are called as prophet) but if they choose not to remain worthy of it, someone else will be chosen in their place.

I would say that without any sign of change or growth towards Christ's likeness in a person's life, it would be very difficult to say that they have been saved. Of course, only that person and God know the true answer to that question.

I don't think we can ever do anything to qualify ourselves for grace. It's all undeserved. God doesn't choose to save anyone because He foreknew that they would be a good person in life.
Yeah, 'qualify' was probably the wrong word to use. We will never 'deserve' the grace and power of the atonement, and we can never repay him. It is a hard doctrine to understand that someone loves us so much that he would be willing to pay such an awesome price. But he did and he does and I think that the love I feel is one of the best things about the gospel. All I was trying to emphasize was that he expects some effort (our very best effort, in fact) and the ordinances (such as repentance and baptism) are essential. He isn't going to do all the work for us, and somehow, that makes me incredibly happy too to know that I can contribute, even if it is only in a small way.

And, yes, I can agree that your desire, mindset and faith are always very important.

I think I saw a picture on your site of someone being baptized by immersion and I thought it was cool because it seemed similar to how we do it. Is this something you all do? What is the usual age?

Thanks again, but one thing we might consider is continuing this discussion into PMs unless someone else wants to contribute. I mean, it doesn't matter to me and I would enjoy it if someone else did want to chime in, but I would feel bad about keeping the discussion open here if it's only the two of us that are interested.
I've already conquered the world. This is exactly the way I want it.