Author Topic: Malazan Book of the Fallen  (Read 13456 times)

Moggle

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Re: Malazan Book of the Fallen
« Reply #30 on: February 22, 2010, 11:33:05 PM »
I really really don't see why everyone makes such a HUGE deal about Martin killing off one of his main characters in book 1.   Yes he killed of Stark, although quite frankly I didn't care whether he lived or died to be honest, but aside from him has Martin killed off anyone else of real significance to anyone?  Every POV character is basically still alive and kicking unless I've completely missed something.  Everyone needs to get a grip for godsakes.  Martin killed off one of his characters in his first book.  He didn't invent the wheel.

Martin has killed off other PoVs, as well as other important side characters.  But really, I think you are missing the point.  Martin will either kill off a character or do some other horrible thing to them to give the readers a real sense of danger.  At any time, Martin could kill off any character.  This is a very different feel than what readers generally receive in the fantasy genre.  Take Jordan, for example.  I have yet to worry about any of his characters, because I know that they will live through any situation.  With Martin?  I dread those tough situations, because I know that interesting characters are going to die.

Erikson does this as well.  Especially by the end of the 3rd novel, you have a sense that no character is safe.  It isn't the body-count that matters, but what the deaths do to impact the rest of the story.

Get back to me when he kills off any combination of Jon, Arya, Sansa and Tyrion.  He's got alot of characters but how many are significant enough to care whether they live or die?   Stark was the only one and I didn't even care about him, but that's just me. Quite frankly his death is actually more of a plot device than anything else.  Rob was the second most significant but he was mostly a peripheral type character without even a POV.  His death did somewhat suprise me a little but I wasn't shocked that it happened.   It was more the context it happened in that surprised me.  Then there are characters like the Hound, Joffrey and Bart, but the deaths of these characters are literally expected.  I have absolutely no fear in the least that Martin will suddenly kill off Arya or any of the other Starks or Tyrion until it's time.   If he offs anyone else then who cares?


Bookstore Guy

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Re: Malazan Book of the Fallen
« Reply #31 on: February 23, 2010, 12:21:22 AM »
Because he HAS killed off important characters, he has set a precedent to kill off whomever he likes.  It seems like what you are saying is that Martin's storytelling technique only is valid when it suit your own personal preference.  You may not think certain characters are significant, but that is your personal interpretation.  Why do people make a huge deal about Martin killing off his PoV in book one?  Because at the time it WAS shocking.  At the time it FELT fresh.  There are so many characters  in his novel, that different readers place different importance on them--whether minor or major, to a point, is debatable.  That is the cool thing about Martin's work, it strikes different chords. 

You weren't shocked when Robb was killed.  Neither was I.  Because the precedent had been set.  With this in motion, I now look to see who WON'T die--who can manage to survive through the awfulness of the world they live in.  Martin can do far worse things than kill people off.  And he has.  It's all about your connection to the characters.  Obviously you didn't have the same reaction to the characters that a majority did.  Doesn't make you right or wrong.  But seriously, don't berate people by telling them they need to "get a grip."  They could say the same thing to you.
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guessingo

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Re: Malazan Book of the Fallen
« Reply #32 on: February 23, 2010, 12:41:52 AM »
@Moggle: Your preference for books is the hero character you care about. That is not what Martin is doing. He is telling a story a different way. It is different, fresh, and unique.

I remember being surprised when Robb died. I figured that when Ned died that Robb was going to be the new hero character. For now I expect Dany and John Snow to be a couple. I wouldn't surprise me if John Snow dies(but I don't think he will atleast not until the very end), but I would be really surprised in Dany dies.

GRRMs style is the kind of style where its nice to read that type of book every few years. I am not sure many other authors can do it well. Has anyone else copied his style? I think it is very hard to do well and requires more time to write a book like this than other ways to write a book (not only because of how long it takes GRRM to produce a book).

i like books that are different. I would like to see Fantasy novels that scrap the whole hero/epic arch and just do stuff about every day life. Like a mainstream author in a fantasy world. Just for something different. I think I posted this elsewhere, how about one from the perspective of the main bad guy where the bad guy wins. That is a tough sell. I think Moggle would hate it so would many other fantasy readers.

Moggle

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Re: Malazan Book of the Fallen
« Reply #33 on: February 23, 2010, 12:29:30 PM »
Because he HAS killed off important characters, he has set a precedent to kill off whomever he likes.  It seems like what you are saying is that Martin's storytelling technique only is valid when it suit your own personal preference.  You may not think certain characters are significant, but that is your personal interpretation.  Why do people make a huge deal about Martin killing off his PoV in book one?  Because at the time it WAS shocking.  At the time it FELT fresh.  There are so many characters  in his novel, that different readers place different importance on them--whether minor or major, to a point, is debatable.  That is the cool thing about Martin's work, it strikes different chords. 

If you say it's fresh then it must be.   I have no idea what's been going on in fantasy the last 20 years and beyond.  All I know is that the character of Ned was a fairly humorless, dry, one dimensional character.   These are the type of characters authors are never afraid to get rid of.   I'm sure you would admit that Martin was not writing the standard hero adventure story so why attach the typical storytelling style of those books to his?  In those books main characters can't die because they're needed to complete some quest, but GRRM wasn't writing that type of story, correct? 

Quote
You weren't shocked when Robb was killed.  Neither was I.  Because the precedent had been set.  With this in motion, I now look to see who WON'T die--who can manage to survive through the awfulness of the world they live in.  Martin can do far worse things than kill people off.  And he has.  It's all about your connection to the characters. 

But I wasn't even shocked when they killed Ned so how I can be for his son who never even had a voice in the books?   That alone was clue enough that he could killed without remorse by Martin.   Those who do have a voice and are written sympathetically will most likely live.  Although alot of them are so one dimensional it's hard to imagine them being not being expendable except for the fact that Martin still needs at least a few of them to finish out his series.

Quote
Obviously you didn't have the same reaction to the characters that a majority did.  Doesn't make you right or wrong.  But seriously, don't berate people by telling them they need to "get a grip."  They could say the same thing to you.

I didn't make a connection because the characters were not written in a way to allow me to make a connection.  What can anyone really say about Ned and Robb to say they really felt a great sense of satisfaction and joy every time they read them?  Has it occurred to anyone that Martin in all likelyhood decided not to build these characters up because he knew he would kill them off?

In any case I think what I said needed to be said, because I'm grown sick of ppl constantly praising Martin even in non GRRM related threads whether it be here or on other boards or even on review sites that are reviewing other books!  It's ridiculous. 

@Moggle: Your preference for books is the hero character you care about. That is not what Martin is doing. He is telling a story a different way. It is different, fresh, and unique.

I remember being surprised when Robb died. I figured that when Ned died that Robb was going to be the new hero character. For now I expect Dany and John Snow to be a couple. I wouldn't surprise me if John Snow dies(but I don't think he will atleast not until the very end), but I would be really surprised in Dany dies.

Well that's kind of my point.  If he creates a bunch of dull and lifeless characters that you can't even decide if you like or not, why should anyone make a big deal over their deaths?

« Last Edit: February 23, 2010, 12:43:36 PM by Moggle »

Patriotic Kaz

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Re: Malazan Book of the Fallen
« Reply #34 on: February 25, 2010, 07:26:50 PM »
Your refusal to make a connection with a character is a fault within you not in the writing, and it is a fault that everyone has with certain characters. Samuel Clemens once said "I never knew a man I didn't like" and he is 100% correct. If you know someone, really know them which requires you to go out of your way to understand them (an acquaintanceship isn't knowing someone), you will like them. I have met people who are like Ned... he is meant to be a distant, dutiful figure much like how a father SHOULD treat his children (what's up with people befriending their kids now a days... they need parents they have enough friends) that is the role he is intended to play, he merely extends his paternal nature to all those of a lower station.
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mtlhddoc2

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Re: Malazan Book of the Fallen
« Reply #35 on: March 03, 2010, 06:58:54 PM »
XD Well, obviously there are some exceptions. Come to think of it, some of my favourite stories and shows involve characters that are already dead. Dead Like Me, for example, is still a big favourite. In those cases, the deaths are important because they start the character arc. That just doesn't happen often...

I loved Dead Like Me. Not so much the Direct-to-video movie they made, but the show was awesome. Could have been a little grittier maybe, but I was very sad when it ended.

Bookstore Guy

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Re: Malazan Book of the Fallen
« Reply #36 on: March 03, 2010, 09:34:49 PM »
I loved Dead Like Me. Not so much the Direct-to-video movie they made, but the show was awesome. Could have been a little grittier maybe, but I was very sad when it ended.

My thoughts exactly on the series and the "movie".  Though the "level of grittiness" I thought was pretty much spot-on.  I was really sad when it ended...though it always bothered me how rail-thin George was.
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Shivertongue

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Re: Malazan Book of the Fallen
« Reply #37 on: March 03, 2010, 09:40:10 PM »
I loved Dead Like Me. Not so much the Direct-to-video movie they made, but the show was awesome. Could have been a little grittier maybe, but I was very sad when it ended.

My thoughts exactly on the series and the "movie".  Though the "level of grittiness" I thought was pretty much spot-on.  I was really sad when it ended...though it always bothered me how rail-thin George was.

I've only seen a bit of the movie in passing. It's never been on when I had a chance to watch it, and based on what I've heard, I'm not certain I want to. I thought the show itself was perfect, and I'd rather not ruin it with a less-than-stellar movie.
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guessingo

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Re: Malazan Book of the Fallen
« Reply #38 on: March 11, 2010, 02:10:44 PM »
I just started the first one. It is pretty dense for a sci-fi/fantasy novel. Haldeman has a compact writing style, this is far more than that. It is interesting.

Do the 2 Malazan writers overlap their stories at all? In location or characters? I get the impression that Erickson is the better writer since he is the one everyone talks about.
« Last Edit: March 11, 2010, 02:49:37 PM by guessingo »

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Re: Malazan Book of the Fallen
« Reply #39 on: March 11, 2010, 05:04:39 PM »
I just started the first one. It is pretty dense for a sci-fi/fantasy novel. Haldeman has a compact writing style, this is far more than that. It is interesting.

Do the 2 Malazan writers overlap their stories at all? In location or characters? I get the impression that Erickson is the better writer since he is the one everyone talks about.

They created the world together, and their stories all tie in together.  Erikson is a very good writer, so so is Esslemont.  Many people feel Esslemont's 2nd book, RETURN OF THE CRIMSON GUARD, is on par with the best Erikson stuff.  Lately, people have been using Esslemont's first novel, NIGHT OF KNIVES as a starting point to the series rather than GARDENS OF THE MOON.  So, I wouldn't say that Erikson is the better writer, he is just the more visible one of the pair.  When I met them both as World Fantasy, they treated their individual works as one complete work.  Awesome fellows. 
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Patriotic Kaz

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Re: Malazan Book of the Fallen
« Reply #40 on: March 11, 2010, 06:50:01 PM »
I need to get a copy of Night of Knives......
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Re: Malazan Book of the Fallen
« Reply #41 on: March 27, 2010, 03:32:08 AM »
Night of knives is a great read I cant find ICE'S Crimson Gaurds at a good price ....

Rezo

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Re: Malazan Book of the Fallen
« Reply #42 on: March 29, 2010, 01:12:54 AM »
Whoah, I heard about this series four times today only, in four different places on the Internet. Either it's a big coincidence or an omen, but either way, I think I am getting the first book as soon as I see it in any bookshop or library.

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Re: Malazan Book of the Fallen
« Reply #43 on: March 29, 2010, 07:52:56 PM »
Night of knives is a great read I cant find ICE'S Crimson Gaurds at a good price ....

Just wait a bit, it is being released int the US later this year.  Otherwise you have to go the import route.
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