Malazan Book of the Fallen

[Recovering_Cynic]

I'm about  a third of the way through book 2 and enjoying it.  I don't have as much time to read anymore, so it is slow going which is frustrating because I don't always remember where I was in the plot thread.  It's worth reading though.  I remember finishing book one and being more excited about an ending than I had been in a long, long time.  I have books 3-5 sitting on my shelf waiting for the day I finally get around to reading them.  After reading the first book, I had faith that they would be worth the buy.

[Moggle]

I think it's up to you if you want to take the gamble.  The ominous warnings ppl have left in their reviews whether it be on amazon or goodreads should indicate what you have to look forward to.

[Ari54]

oh yes. book 3's ending was more gut-wrenching than the deaths in, say, a Martin novel.

Oh no! lol! I just started on the first book in this series, but Martin managed some deaths that almost made me want to stop reading. That was so not what I wanted to hear, haha!

[guessingo]

I like how martin kills off main characters. I think it is probably alot harder to write a book this way, but it adds alot more tension.

He has posted on his blog a few times in the last 2 weeks. It appears that he is making progress... He is up to 1200 manuscript pages and still going.

[Moggle]

I really really don't see why everyone makes such a HUGE deal about Martin killing off one of his main characters in book 1.   Yes he killed of Stark, although quite frankly I didn't care whether he lived or died to be honest, but aside from him has Martin killed off anyone else of real significance to anyone?  Every POV character is basically still alive and kicking unless I've completely missed something.  Everyone needs to get a grip for godsakes.  Martin killed off one of his characters in his first book.  He didn't invent the wheel.

[guessingo]

Martin has killed off other important starks and several others important POV characters.

[Bookstore Guy]

I really really don't see why everyone makes such a HUGE deal about Martin killing off one of his main characters in book 1.   Yes he killed of Stark, although quite frankly I didn't care whether he lived or died to be honest, but aside from him has Martin killed off anyone else of real significance to anyone?  Every POV character is basically still alive and kicking unless I've completely missed something.  Everyone needs to get a grip for godsakes.  Martin killed off one of his characters in his first book.  He didn't invent the wheel.

Martin has killed off other PoVs, as well as other important side characters.  But really, I think you are missing the point.  Martin will either kill off a character or do some other horrible thing to them to give the readers a real sense of danger.  At any time, Martin could kill off any character.  This is a very different feel than what readers generally receive in the fantasy genre.  Take Jordan, for example.  I have yet to worry about any of his characters, because I know that they will live through any situation.  With Martin?  I dread those tough situations, because I know that interesting characters are going to die.

Erikson does this as well.  Especially by the end of the 3rd novel, you have a sense that no character is safe.  It isn't the body-count that matters, but what the deaths do to impact the rest of the story.

[Recovering_Cynic]

Take Jordan, for example.  I have yet to worry about any of his characters, because I know that they will live through any situation.

That is mostly true, but heading into the last book, I get the sense that Rand's head is on the chopping block.  I wouldn't put it past Sanderson/Jordan to let a few other heads roll as well, although Matt and Perrin are probably safe, as are most of the other POVs who've been in the story from the beginning.

[Bookstore Guy]

Take Jordan, for example.  I have yet to worry about any of his characters, because I know that they will live through any situation.

That is mostly true, but heading into the last book, I get the sense that Rand's head is on the chopping block.  I wouldn't put it past Sanderson/Jordan to let a few other heads roll as well, although Matt and Perrin are probably safe, as are most of the other POVs who've been in the story from the beginning.

You think, that maybe, perhaps, if Jordan/Sanderson decide to go against 12 novels of expectations, that some characters might die.  Though, it probably won't be permanent. 

This is exactly what I mean.  There is no sense of danger while I read those stories.  The novels I have enjoyed the most really relay a sense of danger.  I worry if a character is going to live through the events of a novel.  This what many authors are doing now--giving us that danger.

[Recovering_Cynic]

Yeah, the perpetual resurrections area little annoying.

[guessingo]

Jordan definitely should have whacked more characters. Moiraine is coming back in book 11 (I find this annoying). She should be dead. We should not have to wait for the last book before people die. Plot lines should end before t he last book. I feel like with Jordan's books that I can read the first few, skip 5-7 books in the middle and read the last few and then get the story. That is a flaw.

I have to say one thing. Anyone else notice that alot of authors can start a series really well and then not end it well? See Stephen King and the Dark Tower and Robert Jordan. This tells me is that it is easier to have a good idea and a sense of mystery than it is to actually continue the story and have an end.

I think the key to writing a good long series is to outline extensively. So you know where you are going before the first book is published (yes I know Jordan knows the ending, but he didn't know the middle). So you have outlines of the overall story arch in detail.

you also need to

1. whack main characters. create new ones. whack them again
2. end plot lines mid-series. if you want until the last book, then people can skip the middle books
3. I don't like excessive plot twists. it is bad writing. I don't like to get the feeling that the author just wham changed direction. I like to see it set up with for shadowing (Jordan forshadows incredibly well). This is my beef with the TV show 24. Anyone can just wham go in a new direction.
4. avoid Dues Ex Machina. ie... we have these big problems, than wham some magic way to solve it out of no where. See the last dark tower book with the kid who drew the picture and erased it. I prefer to see this stuff set up in advance.
5. ending really complex problems in 25 pages. I HATE that. you have a lot of really complex issues, then wham you solve it in 25 pages.
People won't like this, but I felt like Brandon did this at the end of Well of Ascension (yes I still liked the book, but not the ending).
6. whack some more main characters

[Shivertongue]

Killing a main character (or any character) just to kill them, as you seem to be suggesting, doesn't work for me. The death has to have a significant impact on the plot, preferably to make things harder for the survivors. At the same time, you kill off too many, and you run the risk of what Martin's done (at least for me). His first few deaths shocked me, but after a while my reaction was more along the lines of "Okay, I can cross him off the list."

Kill off too many, and you have to get the readers to become attached to completely new characters. The deaths don't mean anything if you don't care about who's dying, and at the same time, if you start killing everyone, why should I care about a character I know is going to die? Near-death and just-escaping-certain-death is far more exciting for me, plus is an excellent opportunity for character development. There's no character development if the character is dead.

And sometimes I like my heroes to live.

[guessingo]

"And sometimes I like my heroes to live."

well in 95% of fantasy novels you will get this. so a small sub-set of novels that whack people like crazy would be cool. Since it is different.

I would like to see a novel written from the perspective of the bad guy(and possibly have the bad guy actually win). Just to be different. I don't know if that would sell. The bottom line is fantasy readers want to read about a hero saving the day and I don't know if there is a market for doing stuff significantly differently.

[Recovering_Cynic]

The deaths don't mean anything if you don't care about who's dying, and at the same time, if you start killing everyone, why should I care about a character I know is going to die? Near-death and just-escaping-certain-death is far more exciting for me, plus is an excellent opportunity for character development. There's no character development if the character is dead.

LOL, unless you happen to be reading Terry Pratchett.  Some of his characters only get more interesting after they die, e.g. Reg Shoe.

[Shivertongue]

The deaths don't mean anything if you don't care about who's dying, and at the same time, if you start killing everyone, why should I care about a character I know is going to die? Near-death and just-escaping-certain-death is far more exciting for me, plus is an excellent opportunity for character development. There's no character development if the character is dead.

LOL, unless you happen to be reading Terry Pratchett.  Some of his characters only get more interesting after they die, e.g. Reg Shoe.

XD Well, obviously there are some exceptions. Come to think of it, some of my favourite stories and shows involve characters that are already dead. Dead Like Me, for example, is still a big favourite. In those cases, the deaths are important because they start the character arc. That just doesn't happen often...