1 June 2009 - Renoard - EL SHADDU- ch 5-7 VL

[Renoard]

Sorry this post was late.  I think I took care of the typos and dropped punctuation but let me know.  Thanks for your help.

[swaindaddy]

Good progression here. Not much to improve imho.

I strugggled with kubits but I am not a fan of changing the standard in books from miles, feet, inches, etc. Just a personal thing - it tends to draw more attention than the standard measurements but that could be just me.

Are you positive bakeries isn't bakery's? Not sure myself.

The story is working and staying fresh. I too struggle with "nun" as someone mentioned last week, though.

Good work, Keep it coming!

[Renoard]

Bakeries for plural and Bakery's for possessive.  Do I have a spot where something belonging to a bakery is written as a quantity instead?

I thought long and hard about the measurements.  Here's my dilemma.  If I translate, I'm concerned the anachronism will cause some jarring plot holes. On the other hand, the fact that there were at least Six different cubits in use all of a differing length makes things odd too.  It's a conundrum.   I did however put an entry for Kubit in my glossary to smooth it out.  The standard kubit is about 15 inches and the Royal kubit is nearly 18. because I limited myself to only one of the 3 pairs in use.

A league is roughly a kilometer btw.

I'm really struggling with the issue of time keeping.  No clock or sundials so no 12 hour days, no minutes, no seconds. . .  The anachronism here would spoil the story but I need alternatives that work.  Been using heartbeats some.  Open to suggestions with the usual provisos.

[RavenstarRHJF]

Pretty big chunk, this time.  All the better!

Chapter 5:
Plot-wise, the only inconsistency I see is that they relieve themselves in the courtyard where they wash, and then almost immediately afterward (after the fight and the running chase), they have to again.  I realize that's possible, but... it needs a bit of clarification (as disgusting as that would be) so we don't think you just forgot they already did that.

I really like the fight scene in the courtyard, particularly the way Hahniel uses the Presence- and that Sid'ri isn't superhumanly strong compared to her size.   One thing, though-- the furrow or crack or whatever needs better description and/or imagery.  It took me a while to really get a picture of what was going on there.

Overall, the character interactions need a bit of polishing.

Chapter 6:
It isn't clear whether the Prince is pleased or annoyed or indifferent to the statue's transformation.  You have some things in there that hint at annoyance, but there's also a lot that says he's merely puzzled by the seeming impossibility of the new position.

There's a definite problem with passive voice in this chapter.

Considering his demon has just been banished, Ornan's refusal to toe the line seems a bit... foolhardy.  Honestly, as I read this:

“Foolish child, your master is rebellious and so are you.  You've had your mercy,” the figure roared as it grew brighter.

I expected Ornan to share the same fate.  Instead, he just... leaves.   

Again, generally just needs a bit of polishing.

Chapter 7:
More gritty than anything we've read since chapter five.  The name is misleading, since we don't actually find out that they can't stay there in this chapter.

Towards the end, you describe Sid'ri as depressed- I'm not buying it.  Her actions up to this point have been quite spirited, not to say impassioned.  She may be an angry pessimist, but she's not depressed.

I like the ending to this chapter- very intriguing!

Overall- pretty much, these three chapters just need polishing.  You play around with a couple of terms for Sid'ri: witch, vazeh, nun... it would help if you defined what they mean in context, or just stuck with one.

Great submission!  Plot progressing quickly and entertainingly!

[Hamster]

Hey Renoard,

I don't know if I have actually critiqued your past submissions, but I have read them all. This one is one of my favourites so far. I'm more interested in Sid'ri than Hahniel though, do we ever get her POV, or is it pretty much just from Hahniels'?


Here's a few grammar mistakes that I happened to notice:

He knew a few genuine tricks, he'd gotten from guardsmen and traveling entertainers during his years as a caravaner  

I don't think you want the comma, or you want to add a "that", as well as a period

so Hahniel tossed his staff with a silent command  

Need a period there buddy.

showed lot's of practice.

I think it's "lots" instead of "lot's" Unless Lot is coming into this story too...lol
Like Swaindaddy, I didn't notice any big things to improve on, but there were a few things that jarred me from the story a bit:

Using kubits is fine by me, I like having new and interesting measurments and such, but you seemed to describe every single building and alley and room and ceiling and tree and even rock angels with kubits! I was a little annoyed having to read the word in every other sentence(not literally of course, but you get it). So imo you could maybe tone down those descriptions, because in most writing, people don't say that "the tree was 10 metres tall", and "the room was fifty feet wide by thirty feet long". Just my opinion.

Also, you used the word "limned" twice in quick succession, and for me at least it was an unfamiliar word, and I humbly suggest perhaps using a different adjective for the Wraith, because you desribce him in that way, as well as the eyes of Ornan, but maybe it's deliberate. At this point as well you wrote

What remained was an angelic wraith glowing with a blue light

( my own emphasis) but you had just used the word wraith to describe a summoned demonic creature, so I'm wondering if you just mean a 'spirit' that can be either good or bad, good as denoted by the blue light. If you could explain that to me please, as it somewhat confused me while reading.

Also, Hahniel had a problem with drawing on the presence while in captivity to protect himself from harm or such, because it wasn't right of him to do so, but when he and Sidr'i are under attack, he summons it without a second thought or doubt. He doesn't even consider trying to fight without it. Now I didn't have a big problem with it, but I thought that it seemed a little inconsistent.
Still, very nice fight scene, I loved being able to see the presence in work, especially the Moses allusion with the cobra.

That is the highlight of your writing for me, is how original in fanatasy and uses the concepts of the Bible. I keep looking for different parallels or allusions to the Old Testament, it's great!

Anyhow, sorry for dragging on for a bit, but when I havn't reviewed for a while I tend to write a few massive ones when I get back into it. Great job and keep it up, looking forward to seeing where this goes.

[Renoard]

I want to say I appreciate the upsurge in critic, and longer is good in my book.  Since the installment was long it makes sense so thanks. 

wraith:  I'm using it to mean low level messenger spirit, barely able to affect physical objects.  Good vs evil isn't a matter of species here.  Same species different affiliation.  And there is a further enhancement that was supposed to be highlighted there, but I guess it was too understated.  Essentially the angels are useful as a conduit or "game" avatar for a higher order of being. ;P

The omniscient narrator is like a guy playing Warcraft, so even though he has several characters in the field with him only one is selected as the main focus for POV.  It does shift to her later.  And occasionally to others.  Sid'ri is a major player, but Hahniel is the main Protagonist.

Hahman isn't annoyed, he's just confused and a little in shock at the scale of the spacial distortion. Have to work on it I guess.

This is helpful. Hope to hear more.

[Renoard]

On other thing, Raven can you help me track down the passive voice issues.  I'd greatly appreciate it.

[RavenstarRHJF]

Well, I'll do what I can, but it wasn't that bad.  The only reason I picked up on it was because I was looking for it in my work right before I read yours.

[ErikHolmes]

Chapter Five:
-The scene in the little village seemed off to me. I had the impression that the nun didn't like Hahniel much, but then she is all over him, and it read as being genuine to me.

-The scene when he makes her lose control of her bladder at the end of chapter five seemed a little too much as well. Making her spit out a coin is bad enough I think, but the rest just goes overboard IMO. Its the kind of thing that's hard to forget I think, and could make her lose her appeal. I know people that I think might stop reading at that point. It might seem silly, but I think its true.

Chapter Six:
-I liked the part where the wraith kills Hahmahn, and I liked the part where the wraith is banished for defiling the sanctuary.
-I didn't really like the conversation between El (I'm assuming that was El) and Ornan. It made El seem impotent to me. It was like he was telling Ornan, 'ya, you better run.' If it had been a servant of El, then I could buy the scene easier. Not to mention that El shows up AFTER Hahmahn gets his head ripped off. If I was Hahmahn, I'd be pissshed . . .

I hope I didn't sound too harsh. I really did enjoy the story, hell, I stayed up til 3am reading it! My intent was to help make a great story better!

[Renoard]

Thanks Eric.

It's crude.  On the other hand one of my pet peeves is that no starship in any movie, novel or TV series has ever had human waste disposal.  Where's the sonic toilet on board Enterprise.

I may have over compensated in these early chapters. I'll have to look at how to improve those.  The umm, bladder issue was supposed to be more due to the fact that he was so clumsy that he nearly choked her and that caused her to lose concentration.

[Silk]

Page six of this submission, when people start throwing things at Sid'ri, you write, "this could get ugly soon so Hahniel put on additional speed"... It seems to me that running away from a crowd like that, or seeming to run away, is actually a pretty good way to get them to follow you.

There are places where the text seems kind of repitious. You mention a few times throughout this section (and the last, come to think of it) that their imprisonment and abuse is telling on them. We can see the effects; we only need to be told once.

I'm noticing a lot of adjectives and adverbs and other descriptive verbiage; I think you're going a little overboard. (Specifically, I'm currently looking at the part where the wraith shows up in the prince's chamber, but I think it aplies to the submission as a whole, too).

The pacing's working out for me. Expecting the Main Plot to start getting more aggressive in its appearances sometime soon, though.

To respond to some comments made by others: Regarding calls of nature in chapter five. I had the same comment at first, but of course they have been running around alleyways and such, presumably for some time. But sinceI 'm evidently not the only one who noticed this, something to clarify that time has indeed passed might not be a bad thing.

I disagree with Erik when he says that making Sid'ri lose control of her bladder was over the top. I actually thought it was good that you weren't afraid to go there. Yeah, it might make us remember her a little less fondly in the end, but I don't think that's a problem for you. It doesn't make her less INTERESTING, and that's the main thing. (It wasn't really clear that he'd choked her, by the way.) And yes, I didn't really notice it while reading, but thinking back there was rather a lot of waste disposal goin' on in those chapters.

Kubits work fine for me as a unit of measure. Though as someone pointed out, people probably don't think in units of measure all the time.

[Renoard]

Thanks, Silk.

I read all your critiques at once and I appreciate the insight.  I'm still slogging through the "ending". So it will be a bit before I can sit down and revise these early chapters.  You mention that in retrospect there was a lot of waste disposal.  Did it interfere with the story or was it the sort of thing that only really matters after it's pointed out?  The reason I ask is that I use actual waste disposal, as in a team who clean public jakes as kidnappers a few pages later.  I was hoping that the common place reminders that these are living organisms might make that less odd.  I'm not trying to be campy, and I don't want to end up with MST3000 material.  No one is allowed to throw toast at the writer!

[Silk]

In my opinion, at least, it's not really a problem so much as it's just a bit noticeable. It might tweak me a bit when I come across it, but it's the sort of thing I forget as soon as I turn the page.