03 May 2009 - Erik Holmes - The Sword of Worlds CH 5-7 (VL)

[ErikHolmes]

Ok, I've posted the next Three Chapters of my novel. They are each pretty short. Get your red markers ready--and thanks for the comments!

[swaindaddy]

Hello Erik, my response to CH 5-7

It may be because I have not read anything prior but the first person POV was a jolt when it switched characters. I was confused a few paragraphs in to chapter 6 before I realized it was no longer Kail.

I like the quick pacing of the story, it was hard to stop reading.

There were quite a bit of dashes (-) throughout the prose. I'm not trying to critique the writing but it did take me out of the story a few times when I began to notice all of the dashes.

One thing that bothered me a little bit was how easily Ellie believed they were in a new world. This was compounded by the fact that the new world was similar to our own. I would try to let her struggle with that issue a bit longer before she was really willing to accept it.

Pretty interesting stuff so far. I will look forward to next week's submission. Just let me know if you would prefer me to submit these reviews in a different format. My goal is to point out things I think might help so I hope you don't take any of it as a negative!

[ErikHolmes]

I like the quick pacing of the story, it was hard to stop reading.

Thanks! That's probably the best compliment I've gotten so far

There were quite a bit of dashes (-) throughout the prose. I'm not trying to critique the writing but it did take me out of the story a few times when I began to notice all of the dashes.

LOL--sigh--ya, I probably needs to cut about 75% of them out. I use them way too much (the fact that I only learned where they go about two weeks ago on the internet isn't a factor at all, I promise).

One thing that bothered me a little bit was how easily Ellie believed they were in a new world. This was compounded by the fact that the new world was similar to our own. I would try to let her struggle with that issue a bit longer before she was really willing to accept it.

I probably should go into more detail about the differences. Once the half a dozen moons are visible though it'll be even more obvious.

Pretty interesting stuff so far. I will look forward to next week's submission. Just let me know if you would prefer me to submit these reviews in a different format. My goal is to point out things I think might help so I hope you don't take any of it as a negative!

No, this is pretty much how we all do it I think, thanks for the comments!

[RavenstarRHJF]

For the most part, nice follow up to the first three chapters.

I do think it's a bit soon for the romantic couple to discover their feelings for one another (even if they get no chance to talk about it).  On the other hand, it's refreshing for people to admit, right off the bat, that they've been idiots for a long time and should now fix the problem.   Here's hoping they follow up on that!

It seems your descriptions can be a little too detailed.  Yes, knowing that the car is a Charger and the bike is a Ninja can be very effective for people who already know what they look like.  But it could be more effective for everyone else if you just described it as a muscle car, or a fast bike- the kind you practically have to lie down on to ride (I have no idea if a Ninja is that type- it's just an example).

Um, I've seen the sky a very light blue.  All you need are the right atmospheric conditions and it'll be almost white-looking.  Just so you know it's not impossible on Earth.

Overall, very nice chapters!

[Renoard]

Nice bridge.  Since we aleady had such a huge opening, it is hard to introduce an initial complication that doesn't seem anticlimactic.  I think you managed nicely.

You've gotten a handle on the language issues for the most part.  I did see one where it read a bit more like stage direction than narrative.  But on the whole that's getting solved.

I'm still a little uncomfortable with Elie's characterization.  She seems far to quick to accept torture and beatings, much less transport to another world.  I like the scene with the rings, but it would be nice if we had some hint that she was really just covering her trauma.  Her inner dialogue seems far too cheerful to be real.

I agree with ravenstar that specificity is no substitute for description.  You can shorthand with common terms that have a wide recognition factor, but not everyone knows a pocket rocket from a cruiser.  A little help with physical appearance goes a lot further than trade names. 

This issue also appears in the use of a citation from Dune.  True it's a common movie that most of us have seen, but in text it reads like a cite from the novels instead.  It might be helpful to go review how Herbert described Mu'a dib's eyes or his sister's for that matter and then try to come up with a similar passage in your own words.

The arm band was another one.  "There was an amphisbaena silver armband of two snakes around his bicep. . ." Granted, Elie might be an expert on ancient Greek relics, but most readers might not be.  Removing the technical term amphisbaena to a second sentence where she explains why she knows that term would help, though the term isn't needed.  Your description is sufficient as it is, unless you want to describe what makes it an amphisbaena (e.g. the two headed animal etc.).

These are all just suggestions, of things to look at of course.

Keep it up.  We need to get Kail his destiny!  (or is it density sometimes I forget. . .)

[Frog]

Thoughts While Reading:
You use a lot of one word sentences and for the most part they seem alright but I thought this one was a bit confusing:

I’d been invited, but had plans to go with Lance to a movie instead. Still.

You also use too many brand name descriptors IMO, like with the desert eagle, I had no idea it was a gun until he started shooting it. 

and was about to tell them all to freeze and not move.

Redundant.

Ellie is the sweetest, kindest brat I’ve ever met; the most caring person in the world. She’s never done anything to hurt anyone and often goes out of her way to help others.

It's a bit over the top in my opinion, bordering on cheesy especially since I feel like we barely know these characters.

my house was a house of horrors!

I found this awkward....

I am not understanding Ellie's motivation in putting on the rings. I would be more concerned about Kail and getting my bearings personally. She just seems a little too calm overall.

Overall impression:
I'd say that pacing wise you're moving too fast for my liking. I'd like to get to know these characters a little better before all the dramatic action so I would care a little more about them now. Violence seems a little over the top to me for this early in the game, but I'm still interested and I liked the sword. I know it's the title of the book, but maybe you could find a way to foreshadow its powers a little more in previous chapters. Good Job!

[ryos]

I enjoyed this submission. Sadly, I'm struggling to come up with a specific thing I liked. It was just a general, "that was an entertaining read" sort of thing.

As for things I didn't like. Let's see...

I didn't see the potential in Kail to jack people up the way he did. Yes, he just saw these people kill his best friend in cold blood, and yes, they were hurting the girl he fancied, and yes, they were pointing guns at him, but...shooting to kill? Cutting people in half? He may be in good shape, and somewhat tougher than your average early-20-something, but...it seemed a bit of a stretch based on the characterization we've seen.

Also, how on earth did he know what to do with the sword to make it jump worlds? He went from "this is nerdy D&D crap" to "wow I can warp with this here sword" pretty quickly IMHO.

It was also a little jarring for Ellie to be scoping out his body in the midst of wondering how to save his life on an alien world. It made her look vapid and distractible by every shiny thing. Is that the characterization you were going for?

That's all I got. Sorry this is kinda short, but I found little to praise or complain about. The overall impression was positive, though, so don't worry about it being bland.

[ErikHolmes]

I do think it's a bit soon for the romantic couple to discover their feelings for one another (even if they get no chance to talk about it).  On the other hand, it's refreshing for people to admit, right off the bat, that they've been idiots for a long time and should now fix the problem.   Here's hoping they follow up on that!

I'm hoping that it's obvious by now that Ellie has a thing for Kail, and always has. Kail is the cute guy she is talking about in her first appearance.

It seems your descriptions can be a little too detailed.  Yes, knowing that the car is a Charger and the bike is a Ninja can be very effective for people who already know what they look like.  But it could be more effective for everyone else if you just described it as a muscle car, or a fast bike- the kind you practically have to lie down on to ride (I have no idea if a Ninja is that type- it's just an example).

Point taken. Maybe mix in both? "Underneath the cover was a bullet bike, a Ninja-Xwhatever" One reason I used those descriptions was because it was just how I saw Kail seeing things. He's more detail oriented then Ellie and familiar with things like that. To him, its a Desert Eagle. To Ellie, its a 'Big gun'.

Um, I've seen the sky a very light blue.  All you need are the right atmospheric conditions and it'll be almost white-looking.  Just so you know it's not impossible on Earth.

I might play with the setting a bit after hearing peoples comments. It's obvious to Ellie at once that she is not one earth. Hmm. I guess I could add a horizon swallowing moon or something. I wonder how big Saturn would look from Titan?

I'm still a little uncomfortable with Elie's characterization.  She seems far to quick to accept torture and beatings, much less transport to another world.  I like the scene with the rings, but it would be nice if we had some hint that she was really just covering her trauma.  Her inner dialogue seems far too cheerful to be real.

After re-reading the chapter I have to agree. I think I'll need to rewrite parts of it and maybe add the more cheerful, this place is amazing stuff later on when she is going through the forest. I think I was a little worried that three chapters in a row of her crying and sobbing would be too much.

This issue also appears in the use of a citation from Dune.  True it's a common movie that most of us have seen, but in text it reads like a cite from the novels instead.  It might be helpful to go review how Herbert described Mu'a dib's eyes or his sister's for that matter and then try to come up with a similar passage in your own words.

I think I'll do both, I'll add what they actually look like, but keep the Dune reference. I'd like some hints that Ellie is into that sort of thing (Speculative Fiction).

The arm band was another one.  "There was an amphisbaena silver armband of two snakes around his bicep. . ." Granted, Elie might be an expert on ancient Greek relics, but most readers might not be.  Removing the technical term amphisbaena to a second sentence where she explains why she knows that term would help, though the term isn't needed.  Your description is sufficient as it is, unless you want to describe what makes it an amphisbaena (e.g. the two headed animal etc.).

Could something like this work?

 "There was an amphisbaena silver armband, (showing a snake with a head at each end, hissing at each other), around his bicep. . ."

Thoughts While Reading:

Ellie is the sweetest, kindest brat I’ve ever met; the most caring person in the world. She’s never done anything to hurt anyone and often goes out of her way to help others.

It's a bit over the top in my opinion, bordering on cheesy especially since I feel like we barely know these characters.

I have thought about removing the word 'brat'. Any suggestions on how I can fix this sentence? I mainly have it there because that is how Kail feels about her. Part of what makes him lose it is the fact that he does feel that Ellie is the most caring person he knows, and that someone would treat her like that hits a nerve for him.

I am not understanding Ellie's motivation in putting on the rings. I would be more concerned about Kail and getting my bearings personally. She just seems a little too calm overall.

I agree that I need to shake her up a bit. She mainly put the rings on because she was hoping that they were magic. That maybe they'd make her invisible or let her fly Kail to safety, etc. She just jumped through what she thinks is a magic portal and the rings are covered in magic markings.

Overall impression:
I'd say that pacing wise you're moving too fast for my liking. I'd like to get to know these characters a little better before all the dramatic action so I would care a little more about them now. Violence seems a little over the top to me for this early in the game, but I'm still interested and I liked the sword. I know it's the title of the book, but maybe you could find a way to foreshadow its powers a little more in previous chapters. Good Job!

The book does slow down quiet a bit in the next few chapters. I'll let you guys tell me if that's a good thing or not. To be honest, I kind of see these first few chapters as intro chapters. The real story starts once they go through that portal. (Chapter 8 is probably as big as 4, 5, 6, and 7 combined).

As for foreshadowing, I thought about adding a little more in that note that Kail finds in the case full of money.

I didn't see the potential in Kail to jack people up the way he did. Yes, he just saw these people kill his best friend in cold blood, and yes, they were hurting the girl he fancied, and yes, they were pointing guns at him, but...shooting to kill? Cutting people in half? He may be in good shape, and somewhat tougher than your average early-20-something, but...it seemed a bit of a stretch based on the characterization we've seen.

LOL, I was actually worried that everyone was going to tell me that. Especially about Kail breaking down the door like he did. Now that I think about it, I don't think most of you have seen my revised "Lance's Apartment' scene. There's a spot where Kail feels guilty for Lance's death.

I stared at the gun in my hand, first my dad--now Lance. Both had been shot right in front of me. Both had died in my arms. I’ve trained in Kung Fu for over twelve years and shot every type of firearm out there.
But when Lance needed me, I just stood there and did nothing.

I would add that a few explanations are coming soon, I guess my question would be: if you were reading this novel and read where Kail breaks down the door and kills those 4 guys, would you suspend disbelief for a few chapters until the explanation came?

It was also a little jarring for Ellie to be scoping out his body in the midst of wondering how to save his life on an alien world. It made her look vapid and distractible by every shiny thing. Is that the characterization you were going for?

Yeah, I didn't know if this was too much for her to comment on at this point. I just finally noticed that no one has the slightest idea what Kail or Ellie look like yet, lol.

I think what I should do for Ellie is look up the symptoms of Post Traumatic Stress

Thanks for all of the comments guys, they are very helpful and I really appreciate them!

[Renoard]

Could something like this work?

 "There was an amphisbaena silver armband, (showing a snake with a head at each end, hissing at each other), around his bicep. . ."

It would help, but it still needs work.

[Frog]

Thoughts While Reading:

Ellie is the sweetest, kindest brat I’ve ever met; the most caring person in the world. She’s never done anything to hurt anyone and often goes out of her way to help others.

It's a bit over the top in my opinion, bordering on cheesy especially since I feel like we barely know these characters.

I have thought about removing the word 'brat'. Any suggestions on how I can fix this sentence? I mainly have it there because that is how Kail feels about her. Part of what makes him lose it is the fact that he does feel that Ellie is the most caring person he knows, and that someone would treat her like that hits a nerve for him.

I don't know... it just seemed overly telly to me at this point. I don't want to be told if a character is best person in the world. I'm okay with Kail feeling angry or showing affection for her, but maybe you could find a way to show the feeling rather than dumping a character description on me. I rather decide that Ellie is 'the best person  in the world' on my own. 

I am not understanding Ellie's motivation in putting on the rings. I would be more concerned about Kail and getting my bearings personally. She just seems a little too calm overall.

I agree that I need to shake her up a bit. She mainly put the rings on because she was hoping that they were magic. That maybe they'd make her invisible or let her fly Kail to safety, etc. She just jumped through what she thinks is a magic portal and the rings are covered in magic markings.

Well, if you want Ellie to seem impulsive, it may work, but I would think that putting on a possibly magical ring would be more reckless/stupid than helpful at this point (especially if she is familiar w/ a certain hobbit ) I just think it would be that absolute last thing to concern her right now, but it isn't a major sticking point for me, so do what you have to do.

Overall impression:
I'd say that pacing wise you're moving too fast for my liking. I'd like to get to know these characters a little better before all the dramatic action so I would care a little more about them now. Violence seems a little over the top to me for this early in the game, but I'm still interested and I liked the sword. I know it's the title of the book, but maybe you could find a way to foreshadow its powers a little more in previous chapters. Good Job!

The book does slow down quiet a bit in the next few chapters. I'll let you guys tell me if that's a good thing or not. To be honest, I kind of see these first few chapters as intro chapters. The real story starts once they go through that portal. (Chapter 8 is probably as big as 4, 5, 6, and 7 combined).

I'll let you know, but I would be careful. You just seem to be trying to hook your audience with the shock factor so far and that can only last so long. Plots need to be steadily escalating so I would be very careful about putting so much fast action/violence at the beginning without anything to base it on.  I am also one that tends to read looking for some sort of emotional bond with the characters right up front, so I would like some things to show their character before you start throwing too many things at them. Some of your introductory stuff with Ellie and Kale could have been good, if you had shown it in a way that didn't disrupt the time line IMO.

[Silk]

"Inside were four men that I assumed were working with the guys that had killed Lance." Yeah, I think we've all made that assumption, but it just kind of sounds awkward and unwieldy in prose. Unless I misremember, the ones we saw in the first chapter were wearing suits--maybe just say you saw four suits.

"Ellie is the sweetest, kindest brat I’ve ever met..." Haha. Love this description. (Though, reading Frog's comments I agree that the sentence following this one is a bit much.)

Some of this stuff from Ellie's point of view feels a lot like it's being told not shown: "My house was a house of horrors!" (which also sounds a bit cheesy, in my opinion...) "I felt like I couldn't breathe and started to panic."

In general, I think your writing is a little stronger in Kail's sections than in Ellie's. I'm noticing a few "and then, and then" sentence constructions in Ellie's sections, for examples, which you can later eradicate with extreme prejudice.

For the moment I'll accept that Ellie's singlemindedness--wanting to help Kail--is kind of her saving grace here. But really, she's been been intimidated, assaulted, seen a great deal of violence, seen things that can only be explained as magic, thinks one of her friends is dying, and is now suddenly, inexplicably somewhere else. Really, I think that both she and Kail should be headed towards major breakdowns pretty quick here.

As others have said, I think Ellie seems a little too accepting of what's going on. Her easy acceptance of these things could be shock--but if so, we need to see it in the text, and we're not.

Speaking generally, I think you could still get even closer to both of your POV characters--put us right in their heads. Right now I feel like we're halfway there.

In terms of Kail kicking, ahem, butt in this chapter... Ryos may have a point in that it's a bit of a stretch in terms of what we've seen of his character so far. Mostly, I'm willing to reserve judgement until Kail wakes up and we see his reaction then, but as I mentioned above, being more in his head when he goes in and starts shooting might also help.

In terms of sheer "where did that come from", I know you've mentioned that Kail is a black-belt in something before, but a couple other mentions of how seriously takes whatever martial art he's in might help us buy it once he shows up and starts drubbing people.

Or, if there's a supernatural reason for him to break down the door etc, maybe seeing his confusion (or whatever) when he wakes up will help us suspend disbelief until an explanation comes. Or you could do both.

I think looking up the symptoms of PST would be a good idea. Physical shock would probably be a good one too.

Frog makes a good point in that putting the rings on may seem like a reckless move; but I'll buy that she's too panicked or desperate to make the connection (or to care). Of course, in order to buy it, I have to see it in the text, and it's not there yet.

I guess that's mostly what  need to emphasize, since it keeps coming up again and again: you're not as far in your characters heads as you could be. Dig deeper.

The section was paced nicely, though. It makes for a quick easy read.