Author Topic: ***SPOILERS Official Hero of Ages Spoilers Thread. Includes Q&A w/Brandon****  (Read 158323 times)

Patriotic Kaz

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So it's a Kwistach Hadderach all over again me likey :-*!
"Words are double edged blades. Only the great and the foolish play with knives." - Kaz the Buddah

"Take off your sandals, for you are posting on holy ground." -  Yahweh Kaz

"Chaos, go to your room!" - Momma Kaz

Casco

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I did finish the Mistborn series yesterday and i did love it. However...is the story finished now or do we get to read about Spook and the others in the "new" world at all? I would love to read about it but i cant se how realy, the plot lines and stuff  is allredy ended.

Patriotic Kaz

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If you read the thread you would know that the next set of mistborn books will be set generations after the gang with technological advancement ect.
"Words are double edged blades. Only the great and the foolish play with knives." - Kaz the Buddah

"Take off your sandals, for you are posting on holy ground." -  Yahweh Kaz

"Chaos, go to your room!" - Momma Kaz

Casco

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Thx for the information :) Well, 53 pages of discussions regarding different metals did make me "jump" some pages :) It feels good to know that the story will go on though :)

Akkarin

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I should start this with a confession, one that'll most likely garner some disapproval (I've been on enough forums myself): I didn't read all 53 pages. I only finished this series in the wee hours of this morning, having spent all of my "Free" time reading it yesterday - start to finish, and I only got through the first twenty or so pages before the urge to spill my thoughts became overpwoering. I absolutely loved the trilogy, and will probably pick up Elantris when I next visit the bookstore as well as other Sanderson books (hopefully!) in the future. I think some of the compliments from other authors on the covers of his books (first two paperbacks, third one hardback) struck me as being especially true. Not the silly nonsense about "fans of Goodkind and Jordan will love this! A great read!" (minor detour: I know Brandon is writing the next WoT book, but honestly I've never liked Jordan's series while I've got Goodkind to thank for bringing me to fantasy in the first place, so I always find it amusing that Goodkind and Jordan are synonymous to publishers. /end), but the one that comes to mind had to do with Brandon having something to the effect of a real understanding of leadership and love and how they influence characters. And I agree wholeheartedly.
On another, related, point, I really liked the development of the series, both in terms of the characters and the plot, and I felt really attached to the main figures for most of the journey.

So before I turn this into a review of the whole series, I should probably get to the point - namely, that I'm one of those evil and ignorant blasphemers who didn't like ("hated" seems such a strong word, though it might be closer to the truth) the end of the trilogy. Hopefully you didn't just break your screen in your attempts to throttle me...

My question:
"Why?" This is Brandon Sanderson writing, and I don't think any of us believe he really couldn't come up with a way to end the book without at least suggesting that the only two characters we TRULY care about can live. We don't read books to watch the bad guys fall - that'd get boring real quick. We read for characters, because we become involved with them, care about them and their struggles, want them to succeed even when they themselves don't think they can. "The world lived happily ever after" doesn't satisfy me if the things I care about in that world don't - once the people I care about die and stay dead, Ruin has won. In fact that's exactly how Vin finally felt after her strange display by Elend's corpse - she had nothing left to live for - not happiness, not joy, not Sazed, not Spook, not Kelsier, not Elend. She wasn't "sacrificing" her life so that everyone else could live and be happy, she was committing suicide the only way a god could.

Actually never mind. I did have 560 words written explaining my stance, but I've decided all those things aren't important. Maybe it's just a difference in what readers look for: maybe some look for plot and others for character. I won't deny that the ending tied it all up rather well plot-wise, it was very well done in that respect. But for someone who looks for and cares for the characters in a novel, having the only two people I really care about both commit suicide feels like a slap in the face from a friend. Feels like worse than that - like an absolute betrayal.

 :) sorry for the melodrama, but I think that's the real problem people have with the ending (those of us who don't like it). Vin and Elend being happy in a supposed afterlife is not a consolation at all. Them being happy in the afterlife happens if Ruin wins or if Ruin loses. If they can be happy together in the afterlife,  perhaps they should've committed suicide when they fell in love and had an eternity of peace. Or just let Ruin win. But they didn't, because mumbo-jumbo aside, life is what matters, and in the living realm those two are gone.

(nonetheless, thank you for keeping me up late Brandon  :P )
Everything we do in this world , everything that matters , we do for love... everything bad, everything really bad that was ever done was done for love. ~ Ziani Vaatzes

Peter Ahlstrom

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Goodkind couldn't possibly have gotten you into fantasy, but that's another thread.

I don't think it's fair to say they just committed suicide. The way in which they died accomplished something and they knew, when they did it, that it would accomplish that. When Vin said she had nothing left to live for, she was recognizing that wanting to live was keeping her from accomplishing what she already knew only she could do.

Sometimes, life is not what matters. Yes, life is very important, but it is not the be-all, end-all.
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ryos

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Did you also hate it when Kelsier died? Or did you recognize that his death was noble and great?

I feel the same way about Vin and Elend's deaths. Yes, it's sad, but they accomplished what they'd worked the entire series for. And, the way things were set up, it was pretty much the only way it could have happened. For me, any other ending would have felt a bit contrived.

I'm telling you this mostly in the hopes that it helps you feel a little better about the way the series wrapped up. :)
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Czanos

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[. . .]
"Why?" This is Brandon Sanderson writing, and I don't think any of us believe he really couldn't come up with a way to end the book without at least suggesting that the only two characters we TRULY care about can live. We don't read books to watch the bad guys fall - that'd get boring real quick. We read for characters, because we become involved with them, care about them and their struggles, want them to succeed even when they themselves don't think they can. "The world lived happily ever after" doesn't satisfy me if the things I care about in that world don't - once the people I care about die and stay dead, Ruin has won. In fact that's exactly how Vin finally felt after her strange display by Elend's corpse - she had nothing left to live for - not happiness, not joy, not Sazed, not Spook, not Kelsier, not Elend. She wasn't "sacrificing" her life so that everyone else could live and be happy, she was committing suicide the only way a god could.

Actually never mind. I did have 560 words written explaining my stance, but I've decided all those things aren't important. Maybe it's just a difference in what readers look for: maybe some look for plot and others for character. I won't deny that the ending tied it all up rather well plot-wise, it was very well done in that respect. But for someone who looks for and cares for the characters in a novel, having the only two people I really care about both commit suicide feels like a slap in the face from a friend. Feels like worse than that - like an absolute betrayal.

 :) sorry for the melodrama, but I think that's the real problem people have with the ending (those of us who don't like it). Vin and Elend being happy in a supposed afterlife is not a consolation at all. Them being happy in the afterlife happens if Ruin wins or if Ruin loses. If they can be happy together in the afterlife,  perhaps they should've committed suicide when they fell in love and had an eternity of peace. Or just let Ruin win. But they didn't, because mumbo-jumbo aside, life is what matters, and in the living realm those two are gone.
[. . .]

I find it rather interesting that this is how you describe your feelings about the ending. Particularly, "But for someone who looks for and cares for the characters in a novel, having the only two people I really care about both commit suicide feels like a slap in the face from a friend. Feels like worse than that - like an absolute betrayal." and "But they didn't, because mumbo-jumbo aside, life is what matters, and in the living realm those two are gone."

I begin to wonder if perhaps Brandon wrote his books with this specific reaction in mind. So much of the Mistborn trilogy is dedicated to trust, and the first one particularly tackles how to deal with betrayal. Could Brandon possibly be trying to tell you that the solutions Vin and Kelsier found in the first book do not hold true simply for them? That these issues are real, and he needed to give you an opportunity to bridge the gap between reality and his novels? I think Brandon was being very crafty here, and showing us -- not only through the words on his page, but also through the feelings in our heart -- how to deal with betrayal and trust, and how to appreciate the life around us. To stir us up in remembrance of that which is important in our lives.

Just a thought.
I came because I heard stories, tales of a lengendary man.
A man who was known as the Lord of the Mists, a man they named Survivor.
A man called Hope.

Akkarin

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Actually I thought Kelsier's death was fantastic. Yes, I was sad, and yes, I expected him to come back or to at least not be dead for a little, but it really was a great gesture and empowered Vin and the rest to overthrow the Lord Ruler. But that's what makes it different to me - there was still someone alive I cared about and sympathized with. If, however, Vin had died five pages later in her attack on the Lord Ruler, then my feelings would have been very similar, if a little weaker.

Quote
I don't think it's fair to say they just committed suicide. The way in which they died accomplished something and they knew, when they did it, that it would accomplish that. When Vin said she had nothing left to live for, she was recognizing that wanting to live was keeping her from accomplishing what she already knew only she could do.

Sometimes, life is not what matters. Yes, life is very important, but it is not the be-all, end-all.

Really? Elend let himself be killed so that Vin would not want to live anymore and thus kill Ruin with her death. Personally I find that close to horrifying to do to someone you love and who loves you back. It seems to me that Ruin was actually right when he said that every human advances his cause, that everyone was his pawn. Because Elend managed to do what even a god couldn't - kill the one person he loved. I know most others will see this differently, but that's how I feel about the ending.

Also, to me, when everyone I care about dies in a book, one because he sees the genius in a plan, the other because she has nothing worth living for, the other things don't really matter anymore. That was just my point, I think. That beating Ruin wasn't what I was reading the book for - it was so I could "be" with Vin and Elend.
Everything we do in this world , everything that matters , we do for love... everything bad, everything really bad that was ever done was done for love. ~ Ziani Vaatzes

douglas

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Elend did not die because he "sees the genius in a plan", he died because he saw the plan and realized it was the only way to beat Ruin and beating Ruin was, in his opinion, worth that sacrifice.  Vin did say that Elend was her only reason for living, but I think she meant that he was her only reason to live despite the required cost of not killing Ruin.  I really don't think she would have committed suicide over Elend's death if suicide would not have accomplished something major that couldn't be done any other way.

Vin and Elend spent the entire book trying to beat Ruin despite being just two humans struggling against a god-like entity.  Defeating Ruin was their overriding goal throughout, more important to them than even their own lives in the end.  They accomplished their goal and are happy.  It's a little sad that they had to die to pull it off, but they decided it was worth it.

Personally, I think it would have been cheap and something of a cop out if Vin and Elend won outright without such a major sacrifice.  I wouldn't go so far as to say it would ruin the book for me, but I think it would weaken the story quite a bit.  If the good guys win against overwhelming odds with no real cost to anyone but the redshirts, that greatly reduces the impact of the victory and makes you wonder if the villain was really as much of a threat as he was presented as.

Casco

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""Why?" This is Brandon Sanderson writing, and I don't think any of us believe he really couldn't come up with a way to end the book without at least suggesting that the only two characters we TRULY care about can live"

But he did! Read the last chapter again, when Spook finds the books at Vin and Elends corpses :D

If i understand it correctly, the Mistborn serie is not ended.  "If you read the thread you would know that the next set of mistborn books will be set generations after the gang with technological advancement ect." maby they will get revived again to face another treath of some sort. Both Vin and Elend will be remembered ofc, they are a legend to the surviviors and will be some sort of gods in their minds.
« Last Edit: April 09, 2009, 02:30:51 PM by Casco »

Akkarin

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Ha, I suppose that could be a question for Brandon too: What're the chances that we'll see Elend and Vin again?

Really I don't think there's a chance we will. Killing main characters at the end of a story and then bringing them back to life later doesn't seem like something he'd do. I got the sense that it was a final end, a last goodbye - hence the last chapter.

*sigh*
Who knows? Maybe they will be back?

Quote

Vin and Elend spent the entire book trying to beat Ruin despite being just two humans struggling against a god-like entity.  Defeating Ruin was their overriding goal throughout, more important to them than even their own lives in the end.  They accomplished their goal and are happy.  It's a little sad that they had to die to pull it off, but they decided it was worth it.

Personally, I think it would have been cheap and something of a cop out if Vin and Elend won outright without such a major sacrifice. 

But if you think about what you're saying, it doesn't make much sense at the end there. "They accomplished their goal and are happy." When you put it like that, which is a very valid way to put it considering that Brandon went to special effort to have Sazed report their happiness, does it not belittle their "sacrifice"? You say it's cheap without a major sacrifice, but what did they sacrifice? They gave up a few moments of joy and a few moments of pain (ie life) for an eternity of happiness.

I suppose when it's put like that, Elend choosing not to fight - choosing to have the woman he loves kill herself - doesn't seem so bad if they just get an eternity of happiness. Maybe I've just been looking at it from the wrong angle, but to me I'd rather think that the events of the final book mattered , and the two shouldn't have just killed themselves when Ruin got free. And if I think the book matters, then I think life matters, and then I'm back to being annoyed with their suicides to a plan millenia old....
Everything we do in this world , everything that matters , we do for love... everything bad, everything really bad that was ever done was done for love. ~ Ziani Vaatzes

Peter Ahlstrom

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If they had killed themselves when Ruin got free, Ruin would have won instead of being defeated by them at the end of the book.

We don't know how the afterlife works in Brandon's universe—even Sazed knows very little about how it works. We don't know that everyone who dies goes there and is eternally happy. And while Elend may have learned about the afterlife in his duralumin-atium-burn, Vin did not know and probably fully expected to be making the ultimate sacrifice.
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Casco

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But it seems like Sazed know where they are but couldnt revive them yet. He say that he might revive them later when he knows more. I still hope they will be revived again...im a romantic fool, i know ;)

little wilson

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I'm of mixed feelings about the end. I loved it, yet I really don't like that Vin and Elend died, regardless of the purpose for it. I totally understand why they had to die. I think it's pure genius on Brandon's part to have come up with an ending like that. But I still wish that they hadn't've died....Or rather, since the ending wouldn't have been nearly the same without their deaths, that they might have a chance sometime in the future to live again. To get a better life. One where they won't have to worry about the end of the world. One where they can just settle down and maybe have a few kids, or something.

I don't expect that we'll see it, though. Brandon has better books to write than a tale about Vin and Elend's second chance at life. I do think Sazed's comment at the end is kind of a teaser for something but I don't think it's about either Vin or Elend. Maybe some other character will appear in one of the later trilogies....Or maybe not.
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