Author Topic: Grumpiness in New, Seasonal Flavours  (Read 48602 times)

Shaggy

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Re: Grumpiness in New, Seasonal Flavours
« Reply #240 on: May 09, 2009, 03:22:30 PM »
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ryos

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Re: Grumpiness in New, Seasonal Flavours
« Reply #241 on: May 09, 2009, 03:59:48 PM »
Oh, syntax? Is that all? Pssh. ;D

In my book, syntax doesn't form the basis of a compelling discussion of the merits of programming languages, since, as long as it doesn't get in the way by being hard to read, it's largely irrelevant. Language semantics is a far better metric.

Objective-C's syntax does take some getting used to, but I find that after an acclimation period it doesn't get in the way and there are even some nice things about it. For example, its insistence on named method parameters make function calls much more self-documenting. It also has a mechanism for automatic generation of getters and setters, like Ruby.
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Renoard

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Re: Grumpiness in New, Seasonal Flavours
« Reply #242 on: May 10, 2009, 08:45:17 AM »
To put it succinctly: Ewww, Ruby! Feh! :P
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Renoard

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Re: Grumpiness in New, Seasonal Flavours
« Reply #243 on: May 10, 2009, 08:55:45 AM »
Syntax is critical because operational and axiomatic semantics rise directly from the syntax and calling methods of the given language..  It's actually possible to do OOP in macro assembler on an IBM 360.  I've done it.  But it is far from intuitive.  Because predicate transformer semantics arise from the way axiomatic and operational semantics interact synthetically. ;)
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Renoard

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Re: Grumpiness in New, Seasonal Flavours
« Reply #244 on: May 12, 2009, 09:23:28 AM »
You ever have one of those days?  I try to send chapter three to the RE group,  But first I send an email with no attachment.  Next I send an intermediate cut that has something like 20 chapters, but conveniently starts with chapter 3.  I feel nauseous.  Jade this it the point for a some of that Norman acerbic wit.

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Patriotic Kaz

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Re: Grumpiness in New, Seasonal Flavours
« Reply #245 on: May 12, 2009, 05:44:38 PM »
Current source of grumpiness: people getting upset that they are talked about behind their back... i mean sometimes you have to rant and to avoid confrontation you do so when the object of frustration is not around... not to mention what you don't know gennerally doesn't hurt ya and some idiots think they are doing their friend a favor by ratting someone out which just causes a fight and does no good......this thought is brought to you buy...Channel 8 sitcoms have a nice day
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Miyabi

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Re: Grumpiness in New, Seasonal Flavours
« Reply #246 on: May 12, 2009, 06:19:52 PM »
Renoard, there was no reason for a triple post.  You could have edited them together to put them all in one post.

I woke up in a hurry thinking it was 1:30 because apparently the power went out.  Turns out it's only about 11:30
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ryos

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Re: Grumpiness in New, Seasonal Flavours
« Reply #247 on: May 12, 2009, 09:19:20 PM »
Syntax is critical because operational and axiomatic semantics rise directly from the syntax and calling methods of the given language..  It's actually possible to do OOP in macro assembler on an IBM 360.  I've done it.  But it is far from intuitive.  Because predicate transformer semantics arise from the way axiomatic and operational semantics interact synthetically. ;)

Here I disagree again. The language designer defines the syntax and the semantics that goes along with it. For example, in some languages, a[25] is an array access, while in others, it's a method call. It could just as well have been a multiplication, or an assignment, or return the 26th character in a string; and if you had been trained in a language that treats that syntax as an assignment, you'd think 'a = 25' is pretty strange.

As for OOP in assembly - of course it's possible. All programs wind up as assembly! However, it's not intuitive because in assembly you have to do everything. Shoot, not even looping is intuitive in assembler. This has nothing to do with its syntax, but the fact that the language is defined to correspond to CPU instructions, and you have to figure out how to create high-level constructs out of these basic building blocks.

That's not to say that syntax doesn't matter at all - it can get in the programmer's way. As an example, variable assignment in AppleScript looks like this: "set a to 25". This is verbose and annoying. Also, the following NSArray access is pretty verbose:
[a objectAtIndex:25]
I would be rather annoyed at this, IF Xcode didn't autocomplete objectAtIndex after a few characters. Codesense makes everything better. :)
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FantasyAngel

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Re: Grumpiness in New, Seasonal Flavours
« Reply #248 on: May 12, 2009, 09:26:59 PM »
So annoyed my PC crashed big time and I had to do a full destructive restore and now have to spend ages restoring all my files arghhh!   >:(
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ryos

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Re: Grumpiness in New, Seasonal Flavours
« Reply #249 on: May 12, 2009, 09:51:51 PM »
So annoyed my PC crashed big time and I had to do a full destructive restore and now have to spend ages restoring all my files arghhh!   >:(

Count your blessings - you have backups!

I'm annoyed that a project at work keeps making me do more work then I thought I needed to do, for everything. (BTW, this sums up every programming project ever.)
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FantasyAngel

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Re: Grumpiness in New, Seasonal Flavours
« Reply #250 on: May 12, 2009, 10:03:16 PM »
Unfortunately I only have partial back-ups of music and photos the stupid thing refused to let me back-up anything else so it's all manual.
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Miyabi

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Re: Grumpiness in New, Seasonal Flavours
« Reply #251 on: May 13, 2009, 05:58:18 AM »
See I never had an issue with Syntax.  They always made sense to me.  It's like learning a new language, different people see things differently, so you have to adapt. *shrugs*
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Renoard

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Re: Grumpiness in New, Seasonal Flavours
« Reply #252 on: May 13, 2009, 10:32:24 AM »

Here I disagree again. The language designer defines the syntax and the semantics that goes along with it. For example, in some languages, a[25] is an array access, while in others, it's a method call. It could just as well have been a multiplication, or an assignment, or return the 26th character in a string; and if you had been trained in a language that treats that syntax as an assignment, you'd think 'a = 25' is pretty strange.


But this goes in favor of my point.  You're assuming that language syntax and semantics are statically designed at standards conferences and thereafter, instructors are authoritative preachers of the gospel according to ANSI, etc.

The truth is most languages are designed by an engineer who is frustrated with the restrictions to semantics and design that a given grammar imposes.  He then designs something that works for him, probably kludges together an interpreter and uses it till someone else likes it and tweaks it to their needs etc.

Standards are imposed after the fact and then, compiler groups like gnu, Apple, and Microsoft proceed to inor the standard and provide nonstandard atoms, and extensions to the syntax that suit the complaints from their customer base.  ECMA standardizing Java extensions, in turn giving rise to .Net/pnet/mono, is a good example.

It's a two-way discussion and always in flux.  So it's circular, semantics afflict syntax and syntax creates semantics.  It's not that semantics are irrelevant, it's just that they are inextricably linked in symbiosis with the given grammar.  This is true in human language.  Changing the dictionary, can adversely affect critical reasoning in a population.  The Chinese cultural revolution and Merian Wester's are good examples.

How many people remember that envy is the sin and jealousy is a trait of God that he's proud of?  And that's just an intentional merging of commonly used object lables.  Imagine insisting that we start putting participles at the end of the complete clause in every English sentence.  It would sure make me laugh.  But it would subtly change the way people think and conceptualize problems.

You really want to avoid being "trained in a language" in favor of learning the principles in a non language specific manner.  That will make you much more flexible and able to cope with changes.  There are still sizable companies out there using CICS for data entry and management. ROFL :D
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Re: Grumpiness in New, Seasonal Flavours
« Reply #253 on: May 13, 2009, 02:44:09 PM »
I'm currently sitting at a computer at school trying not to fall asleep. It's not going too well  :(
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Renoard

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Re: Grumpiness in New, Seasonal Flavours
« Reply #254 on: May 13, 2009, 04:11:20 PM »
Lullabye.... and good night....

:P
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