Modern Language in Fantasy?

[Reaves]

Not sure how much more of an explanation I can put here beyond the title, lol. What do you guys think of the use of modern language and expressions from our culture in fantasy? Does it belong? Where have you seen it done well and poorly?

[maxonennis]

It's a question of if it fits the world. If Tolkien had his orcs talking 1950's slang, it wouldn't have fit, but in other situations it might.

One thing to watch out for is phases. A lot of commonly used phrases go way back in human culture. If you want to use them you have to make sure that there is some cultural relevance to the for your world.

[Bookstore Guy]

I dont have a big problem with it. most of the time, this argument comes up when talking about swearing in the fantasy genre. Guys like Martin, Abercrombie, Bakker, Lynch, and Morgan are big users of our modern profanity in their fantasy settings. Is it wrong? Who am I to say. I personally think its fine, because we are not experts in the entire linguistic evolution of the imaginary world that the author has created. Who says that his people can't use this or that phrase? Last I checked we didn't grow up in the pages of that world, so it's not our place to decide if it is ok or not.

[Peter Ahlstrom]

Actually our profane words are quite old. The F word, for example, dates from before 1500 in English and even before that in Scandinavian.

Profanity was certainly not used in polite society for centuries (especially around women), but then at least Martin's society is extremely far from polite—only girls younger than age 12 have any illusions about chivalry and whatnot. Also, part of what made the words impolite is that they came from Anglo-Saxon and earlier rather than coming from Norman French, and high society was descended from the Normans. If the world you're building doesn't have the equivalent of a Norman invasion, profane words would be seen in a different light.

I do think it's important for language not to be anachronistic, but it's possible to go too far. Like, if you try to write without using any words with Latin or Greek roots because your universe's history doesn't have anything that corresponds to ancient Greece or the Roman empire, you'll be left with a very poor vocabulary pool indeed. English is the language we're writing and reading in, and it is what it is.

But if your world is sheathed in darkness and there are no stars at night, someone should not be called a rockstar or a football star. The idiom wouldn't exist in that world.

[sortitus]

My opinion(Short Version): As long as it's not anachronism (or anatopism), it's OK.

[Peter Ahlstrom]

Well, how do you decide if it's anachronism or anatopism?

My point being that a lot of things people think are anachronisms actually aren't, or things that you might think are fine could be argued to be anachronistic depending how picky you are.

[Bookstore Guy]

Ookla is an anachronism.

[Peter Ahlstrom]

Burned!

[Shaggy]

OK, I know what anachronism is, but I can't find a definition for anatopism…help please.

Ouch. You better ice that, Ooka.

[Peter Ahlstrom]

Wikipedia.

Otherwise you could do a morphological analysis. Anatopism is to anachronism as topology is to chronology.

[Shaggy]

Otherwise you could do a morphological analysis. Anatopism is to anachronism as topology is to chronology.

*grumbles* last time I ask him for a definition.

jk   

[RavenstarRHJF]

You know, I think it depends on how the author handles it.  As long as you remember that language/speech is primarily for communication, and then keep in mind the ways of that particular culture, it should be ok.  I guess what I'm saying is, language has a lot more behind it than just words- ideas, nuances of meaning, and tone of voice have a lot more to do with communication than just the words themselves.  There are times when a curse word would be appropriate because the IDEA of "I'm incredibly angry/annoyed/frustrated/etc." is what you're trying to get across to your audience, and that's the cheapest, easiest, fastest way to do it.  Likewise, there are times when it is not appropriate.  You could also choose to have entirely different words take on bad connotations for the culture you're dealing with, but then you have to explain that, too.

[Skar]

Modern language in Fantasy only bothers me when it's anachronistic either physically (Ookla's 'rockstar example) or culturally (pop culture phrases mostly).

I read most fantasy as though it were, essentially, a translation anyway.  English words being used for the actual words of same or similar meaning.

Physically anachronistic words bother me less than culturally anachronistic ones, mostly because I gloss over them more easily.
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Which brings up an interesting question.  There has always been 'pop-culture' and I'm willing to bet that included pop-culture phrasing.  For example, at the court of Louis 14th I'm sure there were phrases in use that were very trendy with a lot of immediately contextual meaning.  Those phrases, in the literature of the time had a very different meaning to contemporaries than they carry for us moderns.  We don't 'get' them at all.

So, to be honest, in any fantasy world there would also be 'pop-culture.'  Should that be expressed by modern pop-culturalisms?  Should the author go to the trouble of creating a pop-culture from which to draw the trendy phrases his young socialites use? Or should the author just let all that go and write clean prose for every character?

[maxonennis]

Actually our profane words are quite old. The F word, for example, dates from before 1500 in English and even before that in Scandinavian.

Profanity was certainly not used in polite society for centuries (especially around women), but then at least Martin's society is extremely far from polite—only girls younger than age 12 have any illusions about chivalry and whatnot. Also, part of what made the words impolite is that they came from Anglo-Saxon and earlier rather than coming from Norman French, and high society was descended from the Normans. If the world you're building doesn't have the equivalent of a Norman invasion, profane words would be seen in a different light.

I do think it's important for language not to be anachronistic, but it's possible to go too far. Like, if you try to write without using any words with Latin or Greek roots because your universe's history doesn't have anything that corresponds to ancient Greece or the Roman empire, you'll be left with a very poor vocabulary pool indeed. English is the language we're writing and reading in, and it is what it is.

But if your world is sheathed in darkness and there are no stars at night, someone should not be called a rockstar or a football star. The idiom wouldn't exist in that world.

This is why it is perfectly rational for GRR Martian to use an F word: because his most of his society is based on medieval century England/Europe.

[Bookstore Guy]

and yet it is surprising how many people say it doesn't fit the story. drives me crazy...