Author Topic: On Feruchemical 'Mistings'  (Read 12012 times)

Turbolinux999

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Re: On Feruchemical 'Mistings'
« Reply #75 on: July 04, 2009, 01:59:24 PM »
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I had a great response written for you... then I closed Firefox and forgot to post it.  I wanted to make it a little less hostile before I posted it, but that point is moot now.
I'll direct you to the link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Correlation_does_not_imply_causation

I age  ->  Time passes  ->  I age because time passes == Bad logic
Televisions are made of atoms  ->  I'm made of atoms  ->  I am a television == The same, bad logic

A point I do want to make that was in my lost post: If Atium does(By some stretch of logic) store time for aging, then it'll be the ONLY Temporal metal because if there are others, then there would have to be different 'flavors' of time.
I know you're not a biologist, but there is no connection between time's passage and our aging just because they occur in parallel.

Maybe I need to make my argument clearer.

Let's say for the sake of argument that the feruchemical attribute for atium stores the effects of time.  That is, just like atium allows an Allomancer to see through time, atium allows a Feruchemist to store the effects of time.  Combine this with the fact that all feruchemists age naturally (I have seen no reason to think otherwise), and we see that atium would thus logically store the effect of aging.  The "Time does not cause aging" argument is then moot.  If we did have a feruchemist who did not age for whatever reason (too much Breath, maybe?  Interacting magic systems are fun.), presumably atium would become useless to him, under this theory.

This theory is strongly supported by Sazed's description of how atium works.  He says that to be younger for one year, you would have to spend one year older.  What is stored in atium is not the aging itself, but rather the time (or perhaps the internal effects of time), which is coincidentally related to aging.  In this case, it would be natural aging baring unforseen events.

Gold would then store healing by storing the natural effects of the bodies ability to heal itself.  Again, storing the effects of time, but now focused on the bodies temporal effects under abnormal conditions.

I hate to continue to disagree, it's starting to sound to me like I'm disagreeing just to do so.

Feruchemy facilitates the storage of the attributes of a Feruchemist, allowing that same Feruchemist to recall and utilize them at his leisure.
The entire argument for Atium, or any other metal, storing time hinges on the single premise that time is an attribute of a Feruchemist. 
I cannot see that making any sense, ever.

Spacetime is independent of us, therefore, time cannot be an attribute of anything other than space and vice versa.

I fully understand where you're coming from, it's completely rational, but totally nonsensical, to me.

happyman

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Re: On Feruchemical 'Mistings'
« Reply #76 on: July 04, 2009, 07:41:12 PM »
Quote
I had a great response written for you... then I closed Firefox and forgot to post it.  I wanted to make it a little less hostile before I posted it, but that point is moot now.
I'll direct you to the link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Correlation_does_not_imply_causation

I age  ->  Time passes  ->  I age because time passes == Bad logic
Televisions are made of atoms  ->  I'm made of atoms  ->  I am a television == The same, bad logic

A point I do want to make that was in my lost post: If Atium does(By some stretch of logic) store time for aging, then it'll be the ONLY Temporal metal because if there are others, then there would have to be different 'flavors' of time.
I know you're not a biologist, but there is no connection between time's passage and our aging just because they occur in parallel.

Maybe I need to make my argument clearer.

Let's say for the sake of argument that the feruchemical attribute for atium stores the effects of time.  That is, just like atium allows an Allomancer to see through time, atium allows a Feruchemist to store the effects of time.  Combine this with the fact that all feruchemists age naturally (I have seen no reason to think otherwise), and we see that atium would thus logically store the effect of aging.  The "Time does not cause aging" argument is then moot.  If we did have a feruchemist who did not age for whatever reason (too much Breath, maybe?  Interacting magic systems are fun.), presumably atium would become useless to him, under this theory.

This theory is strongly supported by Sazed's description of how atium works.  He says that to be younger for one year, you would have to spend one year older.  What is stored in atium is not the aging itself, but rather the time (or perhaps the internal effects of time), which is coincidentally related to aging.  In this case, it would be natural aging baring unforseen events.

Gold would then store healing by storing the natural effects of the bodies ability to heal itself.  Again, storing the effects of time, but now focused on the bodies temporal effects under abnormal conditions.

I hate to continue to disagree, it's starting to sound to me like I'm disagreeing just to do so.

Feruchemy facilitates the storage of the attributes of a Feruchemist, allowing that same Feruchemist to recall and utilize them at his leisure.
The entire argument for Atium, or any other metal, storing time hinges on the single premise that time is an attribute of a Feruchemist. 
I cannot see that making any sense, ever.

Spacetime is independent of us, therefore, time cannot be an attribute of anything other than space and vice versa.

I fully understand where you're coming from, it's completely rational, but totally nonsensical, to me.

Are you saying it's a deep philosophical objection because you believe in a fundamentally block universe?  Why tie your imagination to that loadstone?  It's just a mathematical model, and hardly the only way to view time.
Nature hates being reified.

Chaos

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Re: On Feruchemical 'Mistings'
« Reply #77 on: July 04, 2009, 08:14:32 PM »
When a Feruchemist stores weight, what he is really storing is not the weight itself, but something about how gravity interacts with your body. Yes, I know I explained that horribly, but my point is, Feruchemy sometimes stretches these attributes.
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Turbolinux999

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Re: On Feruchemical 'Mistings'
« Reply #78 on: July 05, 2009, 01:52:57 PM »
When a Feruchemist stores weight, what he is really storing is not the weight itself, but something about how gravity interacts with your body. Yes, I know I explained that horribly, but my point is, Feruchemy sometimes stretches these attributes.

I'll answer this one first because it will help in answering happyman and because I was actually going to mention this in my last response but it felt tacked one.  I'm glad you mentioned it.  ;)

I think that, rather than storing gravity(Which had been my idea as well and always irked me) I think that it would make more sense that Storing(I think I'm going to capitalize Store and Burn when talking about Feruchemy and Allomancy, respectively.  Less confusing) in Iron actually stores the Feruchemist's Higgs Bosons rather than gravity itself.  I wouldn't put it past Mr. Sanderson to have thought it out that far.
For those of us who have not had an education in physics I'll give you a simple explanation of what the Higgs Boson is: The Higgs Boson is the particle that gives all the other particles their mass.  It sounds odd, but it's currently the best idea we've got for why everything has mass.  The more massive an object is, the more gravity it generates/space it distorts, and the more "weight" it has.  It would make sense that Storing 'weight' is actually Storing 'mass' in the form of Higgs Bosons'.
I have a sneaking suspicion that that is how Mr. Sanderson worked it out and he just never bothered to elaborate because he's never needed to.

For more reading on the Standard Model: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Standard_Model
If that's too much, here's the easier one: http://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/Standard_Model  (That's the one I sent my mom.)  ;D

Are you saying it's a deep philosophical objection because you believe in a fundamentally block universe?  Why tie your imagination to that loadstone?  It's just a mathematical model, and hardly the only way to view time.

It isn't a philosophical objection, it's a reasonable, rational objection.  Under NO circumstance is time an attribute of anything other than itself and space. 
Time isn't mediated by a force boson, nor is it ANY type of force/particle.  Time does not depend on matter, it's an intrinsic property of our universe and has no connection to matter at all, let alone, biological life.
I understand that there are many ways to view time(Including the multiple time dimensions theories[Hypothesis'?] and whatnot), but in none of the ideas that aren't completely off the wall speculation, is time an attribute of matter.

As for my imagination, more often than not, it's tied to reality and I rather like it that way.  If something is completely magical, though, I can go with it just fine.

Also, so you know, it's not my intent to be or appear hostile but I have some kind of drive for others to understand my position as it is, not the way they think it is.  It gets me into arguments when I wont let something go because there is a misunderstanding, however small.  Might have to do with my obsessive compulsiveness.

I always feel like there's more to say.

Valkynphyre

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Re: On Feruchemical 'Mistings'
« Reply #79 on: July 05, 2009, 06:06:43 PM »
Hmm... It has been made abundantly clear in my mind that atium stores the effect of age, not time, and when a Feruchemist stores 'weight' he is actually storing 'mass,' because his magic isn't a type which alters the physical forces of the universe, only his own body. The Forces acting upon him remain constant, his body changes in structure at the most fundamental level.
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happyman

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Re: On Feruchemical 'Mistings'
« Reply #80 on: July 05, 2009, 10:28:50 PM »
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It isn't a philosophical objection, it's a reasonable, rational objection.  Under NO circumstance is time an attribute of anything other than itself and space.

This is a philosophical statement, and a statement of pure, undiluted faith in our current scientific models as we render them mathematically.  You have merely confirmed my original supposition; the core issue for you is a philosophical objection, and one that you apparently hold onto very strongly.

Quote
Time isn't mediated by a force boson, nor is it ANY type of force/particle.  Time does not depend on matter, it's an intrinsic property of our universe and has no connection to matter at all, let alone, biological life.

If you were in a physics course, I would flunk you for this statement.  Time is dependent on matter; the presence of too much matter bends time just like it bends space.  In fact, the claimed effects of the temporal metals is to bend time in ways similar to speculative bending that is possible in general relativity in the presence of strange configurations of large masses.

In addition, you are taking our models for time far too seriously if you intend to make that statement an absolute.

I intended my current signature to be a joke.  In this discussion, however, I recommend that you try to understand what "Nature hates being reified" actually means, because you are reifing it all over the place, and then protesting when the rest of us don't get what the problem is.
Nature hates being reified.

Chaos

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Re: On Feruchemical 'Mistings'
« Reply #81 on: July 05, 2009, 10:42:42 PM »
Perhaps this conversation is getting a bit off topic? We're discussing powers of Feruchemy, not physics. Physics may have some minor relevance, but we are focusing far too much on that end of things.

Since the Temporal metals appear to be a sticky point, why don't we change directions and discuss the Enhancement metals? If they deal with emotions, how would they work? Would there be four different emotions to store and tap, or would it operate under a different system?
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RazorSmile

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Re: On Feruchemical 'Mistings'
« Reply #82 on: July 06, 2009, 02:42:38 AM »
Some more suggestions for feruchemical Misting titles:

Pewter  - Strongarm, Beast, Hulk,
Steel - Speedster, Flash, Racer,
Iron - Ballast (Anchor is really fantastic though)
Tin - Scout
Bronze - Sentry, Sentinel
Copper - Sage, Librarian, (or hell, why not Keeper?)
Gold - Regenerator, Rehealer, Troll,
Zinc - Genius, Spark, Eureka
Brass - Pyre, Pyro, Vesuvian
Atium -  ...  I got nuthin'

Chaos

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Re: On Feruchemical 'Mistings'
« Reply #83 on: July 06, 2009, 02:44:52 AM »
I like Pewter Feruchemists being Strongarms. It has a nice relation to Pewterarms/Thugs.
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Rrikor

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Re: On Feruchemical 'Mistings'
« Reply #84 on: July 06, 2009, 03:24:47 PM »
I liked troll. To bad the concept probably would not fit into the world very well. :D

Ari54

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Re: On Feruchemical 'Mistings'
« Reply #85 on: July 06, 2009, 09:37:53 PM »
An Atium feruchemical misting could be a Shapeshifter. Not that we're likely to be able to see one- although perhaps there is some overlap in the ability to use Atium and either gold or electrum.

Rezo

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Re: On Feruchemical 'Mistings'
« Reply #86 on: March 28, 2010, 04:12:56 PM »
I agree with the Shapeshifter idea for now, since I haven't seen anything better.

Going back to the time/quantum physics discussion, I will just say this - as I see it, atium stores your age ONLY. Not the time, but the physical age of your body. Why? Because if it would really store the effects of time, we would get into stuff far more complicated than we saw in any of Brandon's books.
Let's just say, a feruchemist X stores his "time" in atium for a week. After he stops, somebody comes and slices him with a sword. X grabs his atium and takes his "time" back. Would the wound disappear? Would it appear again as he releases his atium?
And what would happen, if, instead, X would get stabbed while he was storing his "time"? Would that mean that the wound would disappear as he stops storing the "time", and then appear every time as he taps his atium?

And another thing. As we know, one of the most important things about feruchemy is the ability to choose, how much of an attribute to take from the metal. If atium stores age, it's logical and simple that you can look a little younger for a week, or look like a child for an hour.
But if it's really time, it wouldn't work like that, since it would just repeat what was happening to the feruchemist while he was storing the time in the atium. It would then happen faster or slower, but wouldn't in any way grand the ability to look much younger for a time.

And more. If X would store his "time", what exactly would be happening to him while he is storing it? Since the time itself would have less impact on him (as he is storing it in atium) it would mean that while he is storing it, he ages slower.

And this is not happening. We know that from Brandon's books that it's not working this way. So, I think that it stores only the physical age, not the time itself.

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Re: On Feruchemical 'Mistings'
« Reply #87 on: March 30, 2010, 05:50:00 PM »
This is something that has been bugging me for a while, so I wanted to let you guys take a stab at it. What happens when a Copper misting (feruchemist and allomancer) burned some copper with a memory stored in it? It seems to me like something funny would happen, because unlike other metals, which store attributes (strength, speed, health, etc.) that can be easily multiplied and magnified, copper stores something more specific. Mental information. How do you "enhance" a stored memory?

Oh, and by the way, Anchor=Awesome!  ;D

Terrisman243

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Re: On Feruchemical 'Mistings'
« Reply #88 on: April 01, 2010, 07:23:26 AM »
We should come up with a sweet name for allomantic-furchemists.

Allomists? Furchemantic? Fallochemantists? Chemist?

What do you guys think?

Fireborn

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Re: On Feruchemical 'Mistings'
« Reply #89 on: April 05, 2010, 12:25:25 AM »
One thing to keep in mind when coming up with these names is that the Allomantic misting names are mostly slang, which is often bases around wordplay and popular concepts.  So don't try to make them too cerebral or specific.  It's not about what it actually does as much as it is about what people think it does.
When to live is to die, and to die is to live, does either really matter?