Author Topic: On Feruchemical 'Mistings'  (Read 11969 times)

Miyabi

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Re: On Feruchemical 'Mistings'
« Reply #60 on: June 28, 2009, 04:21:08 AM »
I have a picture on my phone.  It is Bendalloy.  It slowly pushes time in a bubble around the Allomancer causing it to move more quickly.

If it's a MUST I'll email the picture to you.
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Turbolinux999

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Re: On Feruchemical 'Mistings'
« Reply #61 on: June 28, 2009, 05:42:52 AM »
No need, I'll just point a reference to the first post by Zas678 on the Wiki

Thank you for your confirmations... as much as I wanted them to not be true.  :(

Any clue of when the rest of us(i.e. - Those of us not regularly interacting with Mr. Sanderson personally.) will see the revised poster?
« Last Edit: June 28, 2009, 05:45:58 AM by Turbolinux999 »

Miyabi

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Re: On Feruchemical 'Mistings'
« Reply #62 on: June 28, 2009, 07:04:31 AM »
I think he was saying they'll be going on sale this fall or winterish time.  Something like that.  Peter will probably know more about it than me though.

Ha ha.  I really want one of the $50 ones though rather than the $18 ones they will be making.


NOTE: Those prices are just flighty memories and aren't necessarily accurate.
オレは長超猿庁じゃ〜。

Turbolinux999

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Re: On Feruchemical 'Mistings'
« Reply #63 on: June 29, 2009, 12:57:34 AM »
Any word on the Feruchemy or Hemalurgy posters?

Maybe a sneak peek at what the other metals do...?  :D

zas678

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Re: On Feruchemical 'Mistings'
« Reply #64 on: June 29, 2009, 06:53:24 PM »
If I remember right, he mentioned one of the Feruchemal metals storing emotion, like was suggested once or twice before for Allomancy.

For example, Sazed could store sadness, making him happier, than take it out when he was in mourning.
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echigo109

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Re: On Feruchemical 'Mistings'
« Reply #65 on: June 29, 2009, 10:38:59 PM »
I hate that name... stupid copyright laws!

I don't think that there will be any Temporal Feruchemical powers; that seems like it would be out of place. I also don't think that there will be any metal that allows Feruchemical stores to be shared or transferred or other such things that I read in another thread.
I do, however, have a speculation for one of the metals... now I just need a name:

Aluminium : (Name here) - Stores Pain
How did you come up with that? and what use would that be?

happyman

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Re: On Feruchemical 'Mistings'
« Reply #66 on: June 29, 2009, 10:44:36 PM »
Don't we have at least one temporal feruchemical power already?  Atium can be used to store age, and even though atium isn't one of the "true" or "core" metals, it is true to form in affecting time, just like it should.
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Turbolinux999

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Re: On Feruchemical 'Mistings'
« Reply #67 on: June 30, 2009, 12:25:56 AM »
Zaz678:
I had a feeling that he was going to go in that direction.  I like it... Storing Happiness == Heartless?   :D

echigo109:
The Temporal metals.  Cadmium and Bendalloy don't move an Allomancer slower or faster through time, they manipulate time in a bubble around them.  Gold and Electrum don't allow an Allomancer to select a past or future to live in, it just shows them possibilities.  A Feruchemical Temporal power would mean that the Feruchemist would have to store and tap time itself and would be moving through it whichever way.  Unless time is a property of people and not an intrinsic property of space-time then it would take some very good story elements to justify Temporal Feruchemical abilities.  I don't put it past Mr. Sanderson to come up with something, but, to me, it would be a stretch.
On the second question... I'm not sure if you're talking about Aluminium storing pain or a metal that allows Feruchemical stores to be used by people other that the person who made them.
A metal that allowed other Feruchemists to access stores that were not their own doesn't make sense in the same way that Temporal Feruchemical metals don't either.  I could see a technology that could act as a pass through, manipulating it's own Feruchemical charge until it matched the one in the metal and then pulling the charge into it and converting the frequency(Or however the charge works) into the person's that has the metalmind.  That would be cool.
Aluminium storing pain is an awesome idea, how is it not?  Hell, if there were some way to exchange metalminds with others, you could trick someone into thinking that the metal was a different one and make them tap your pain.  If not, then it'd be a mind that you store in and never tap, still really useful.

happyman:
Aging is a biological function not the state of your position on the timeline.

happyman

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Re: On Feruchemical 'Mistings'
« Reply #68 on: June 30, 2009, 04:07:35 PM »
happyman:
Aging is a biological function not the state of your position on the timeline.

The distinction being?  Time causes biological age; the two are correlated.  Feruchemists can store biological age, even if they need atium to do it.  It gives them a window, no matter how imperfect, into both the future and the past.  It makes no explicit predictions, but it could at least give them some notion of how long they are likely to live.  Frankly, it is the perfect feruchemical temporal power---something completely internal, something temporal and yet non-paradoxical.

I would say that temporal feruchemical powers are eminently plausible.  We've already got one.  Maybe the other powers can stretch or bend internal time in other ways as well.
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Turbolinux999

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Re: On Feruchemical 'Mistings'
« Reply #69 on: July 01, 2009, 04:40:18 AM »
Time does NOT cause age, our own biology does.  Time's passage is a side effect of us being three dimensional and is just something that we perceive happening as we pass through the fourth dimension. (It's very quantum physics.)
Time has no relation to age, at all.  Age is purely biological.

happyman

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Re: On Feruchemical 'Mistings'
« Reply #70 on: July 01, 2009, 08:02:10 PM »
Time does NOT cause age, our own biology does.  Time's passage is a side effect of us being three dimensional and is just something that we perceive happening as we pass through the fourth dimension. (It's very quantum physics.)
Time has no relation to age, at all.  Age is purely biological.

I still fail to see a meaningful distinction.  We experience time by (among other things) aging.  It is part of our biology, true.  The part that is associated with the passage of time (local time, true).  It is true that we, perhaps, do not have to experience time by aging.  Fantasy and science fiction are full of speculations along those lines.  However, in Mistborn I think we can safely say that all known feruchemists experience time by aging.  Thus feruchemically storing time is functionally equivalent to storing aging in the Mistborn world, whether you like it or not, and no amount of philosophical claptrap will change this basic fact.

And don't try to snow me with quantum physics.  I'm going to defend my Ph.D. dissertation on the effects of classical chaos on quantum mechanical systems in less than two weeks.  I have no respect for people who try to separate the concept of time from the effects we can see in the physical world.  It's pure nonsense to consider time apart from how we experience it, simply because we have no other option.
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Chaos

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Re: On Feruchemical 'Mistings'
« Reply #71 on: July 02, 2009, 07:32:03 AM »
The discussion is mostly irrelevant. They called the Temporal Metals. Both Feruchemy and Hemalurgy must have powers for all sixteen metals, its illogical to think that there would be holes in the two arts.

And don't try to snow me with quantum physics.  I'm going to defend my Ph.D. dissertation on the effects of classical chaos on quantum mechanical systems in less than two weeks.  I have no respect for people who try to separate the concept of time from the effects we can see in the physical world.  It's pure nonsense to consider time apart from how we experience it, simply because we have no other option.

Awesome! Think you could give me a copy to peruse? As a physics undergrad, that stuff interests me a ton, even though I may not understand all the math until next year when I take Quantum.
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happyman

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Re: On Feruchemical 'Mistings'
« Reply #72 on: July 02, 2009, 05:45:38 PM »
The discussion is mostly irrelevant. They called the Temporal Metals. Both Feruchemy and Hemalurgy must have powers for all sixteen metals, its illogical to think that there would be holes in the two arts.

And don't try to snow me with quantum physics.  I'm going to defend my Ph.D. dissertation on the effects of classical chaos on quantum mechanical systems in less than two weeks.  I have no respect for people who try to separate the concept of time from the effects we can see in the physical world.  It's pure nonsense to consider time apart from how we experience it, simply because we have no other option.

Awesome! Think you could give me a copy to peruse? As a physics undergrad, that stuff interests me a ton, even though I may not understand all the math until next year when I take Quantum.

How would I send it to you?  I've only used the system here for posting and I honestly don't know how to do more.

Also, I must warn you that if you haven't taken undergrad quantum, it's going to be a bit steep, to say the least.  I start with the assumption that the reader is familiar with basic graduate level quantum mechanics and work my way up from there.  It relies extremely heavily on linear algebra, group theory, distributions of matrices, integral operators and other concepts from higher mathematics.  If you haven't taken a class on these, many of the technical tools will be difficult.
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Turbolinux999

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Re: On Feruchemical 'Mistings'
« Reply #73 on: July 03, 2009, 06:34:04 AM »
Before I respond to others I'd like to make an idea I had known.
I was looking over the Allomancy/Feruchemy/Hemalurgy chart in the back of HoA and that grouping for Feruchemy, while not as obvious as Allomancy, finally jumped out at me.
With the mention of storing emotion from Zas678, it occurred to me that the Enhancement Metals are going to store emotion or emotion-related attributes.

Here's my thinking:
The Physical Metals Store: Strength, Senses, Speed, and Weight -- Loosely 'physical' stuff
The Mental Metals Store: Warmth, Memories, Wakefulness, and Mental Speed -- Loosely 'internal' stuff
The Temporal Metal Stores: Health(I await the others, they will be interesting)
The Enhancement Metals Store: [Emotion/Emotion-related whatnots]

In this light, it makes sense(With the emotional storage information) for the Feruchemical Metals to be labeled similarly to the Allomantic ones, but I can't come up with good names, I had a few but they melted as I typed and now completely escape me.  As always; suggestions!?

Time does NOT cause age, our own biology does.  Time's passage is a side effect of us being three dimensional and is just something that we perceive happening as we pass through the fourth dimension. (It's very quantum physics.)
Time has no relation to age, at all.  Age is purely biological.

I still fail to see a meaningful distinction.  We experience time by (among other things) aging.  It is part of our biology, true.  The part that is associated with the passage of time (local time, true).  It is true that we, perhaps, do not have to experience time by aging.  Fantasy and science fiction are full of speculations along those lines.  However, in Mistborn I think we can safely say that all known feruchemists experience time by aging.  Thus feruchemically storing time is functionally equivalent to storing aging in the Mistborn world, whether you like it or not, and no amount of philosophical claptrap will change this basic fact.

And don't try to snow me with quantum physics.  I'm going to defend my Ph.D. dissertation on the effects of classical chaos on quantum mechanical systems in less than two weeks.  I have no respect for people who try to separate the concept of time from the effects we can see in the physical world.  It's pure nonsense to consider time apart from how we experience it, simply because we have no other option.

I had a great response written for you... then I closed Firefox and forgot to post it.  I wanted to make it a little less hostile before I posted it, but that point is moot now.
I'll direct you to the link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Correlation_does_not_imply_causation

I age  ->  Time passes  ->  I age because time passes == Bad logic
Televisions are made of atoms  ->  I'm made of atoms  ->  I am a television == The same, bad logic

A point I do want to make that was in my lost post: If Atium does(By some stretch of logic) store time for aging, then it'll be the ONLY Temporal metal because if there are others, then there would have to be different 'flavors' of time.
I know you're not a biologist, but there is no connection between time's passage and our aging just because they occur in parallel.

Note: I wasn't trying to snow you, I was trying to simplify the concept because I was not aware that everyone reading and posting here were quantum physicists.

The discussion is mostly irrelevant. They called the Temporal Metals. Both Feruchemy and Hemalurgy must have powers for all sixteen metals, its illogical to think that there would be holes in the two arts.

I do agree that it is irrelevant, mostly; especially considering that the thread title is, 'On Feruchemical 'Mistings'' and not, 'The likelihood of the Temporal metals having temporal effects in Feruchemy'

While that is true, there is no evidence(So far) that those groupings(Physical, Mental, Temporal, and Enhancement) will apply to the other Metallic Arts.  Everyone seems to want to apply those across the board.  The only completely consistent metal is Tin.  Feruchemical uses for metals obviously follow a grouping "rule", but the only Temporal metal that we know for sure is Gold and it stores health and that's definitely not time.  And if it is, then we have the 'Flavors of Time' problem which makes even less sense unless Mr. Sanderson wants to make the Shards universe have more than one dimension of time, which would be interesting.
Atium is a god metal, the power of the god Ruin percolated through stone and crystal in the Pits of Hathsin, if it stores time then I'm alright with that, but any other metal is just that, metal.
Time is not attached to biology, if anything, it's the other way around, but there's no evidence of it.

Correlation does not imply causation.

Also:
I'm going to defend my Ph.D. dissertation on the effects of classical chaos on quantum mechanical systems in less than two weeks.

Best of luck.
« Last Edit: July 03, 2009, 06:55:44 AM by Turbolinux999 »

happyman

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Re: On Feruchemical 'Mistings'
« Reply #74 on: July 03, 2009, 09:03:27 PM »
Quote
I had a great response written for you... then I closed Firefox and forgot to post it.  I wanted to make it a little less hostile before I posted it, but that point is moot now.
I'll direct you to the link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Correlation_does_not_imply_causation

I age  ->  Time passes  ->  I age because time passes == Bad logic
Televisions are made of atoms  ->  I'm made of atoms  ->  I am a television == The same, bad logic

A point I do want to make that was in my lost post: If Atium does(By some stretch of logic) store time for aging, then it'll be the ONLY Temporal metal because if there are others, then there would have to be different 'flavors' of time.
I know you're not a biologist, but there is no connection between time's passage and our aging just because they occur in parallel.

Maybe I need to make my argument clearer.

Let's say for the sake of argument that the feruchemical attribute for atium stores the effects of time.  That is, just like atium allows an Allomancer to see through time, atium allows a Feruchemist to store the effects of time.  Combine this with the fact that all feruchemists age naturally (I have seen no reason to think otherwise), and we see that atium would thus logically store the effect of aging.  The "Time does not cause aging" argument is then moot.  If we did have a feruchemist who did not age for whatever reason (too much Breath, maybe?  Interacting magic systems are fun.), presumably atium would become useless to him, under this theory.

This theory is strongly supported by Sazed's description of how atium works.  He says that to be younger for one year, you would have to spend one year older.  What is stored in atium is not the aging itself, but rather the time (or perhaps the internal effects of time), which is coincidentally related to aging.  In this case, it would be natural aging baring unforseen events.

Gold would then store healing by storing the natural effects of the bodies ability to heal itself.  Again, storing the effects of time, but now focused on the bodies temporal effects under abnormal conditions.
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