Author Topic: Obama wants to halve budget deficit  (Read 7546 times)

Miyabi

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Re: Obama wants to halve budget deficit
« Reply #15 on: March 02, 2009, 03:42:59 AM »
The thing is that in order to decrease the deficit we have to get rid of a lot of useless spending.  In order to do that we need to terminate hundreds of ineffective programs that are currently running within the system.

The only problem is that in order to stop those programs we have to first spend money to eliminate them, which will save money in the long run.


On the charity issue.  Many many rich people donate to charities only to have the government give them back a huge chunk of that money every year in their taxes.  The goal here is to cut how much money these rich people get back and hope that they still make donations to charities and the government will instead use that money to make sure that charities still receive a similar amount of money to that which they had already been receiving.  In the end (assuming that the wealthy don't just horde their money after the amount they get back is decreased) the government will actually save money by paying differences to charities rather than paying back to the rich.

About him "doubling" the deficit.  Most of this is political propaganda.  People who don't want him in office are going to use his "spend now to kill cost later" plans to make him look really bad. 

I personally voted for Obama and have a lot of faith in him that he will come through with things and that he will put the country in a better position than it is now.

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Peter Ahlstrom

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Re: Obama wants to halve budget deficit
« Reply #16 on: March 02, 2009, 08:30:08 AM »
I haven't seen any evidence that the extra money spent is for eliminating programs. You're the first person I've seen say that, actually.

What I've heard is that it's Keynesian economics and the government will make it up later from increased tax revenues after we as a country stop collectively panicking.

I have also heard vague plans about eliminating programs (not in the context of the budget increase) but no details, and politicians have been promising for years to cut costs and eliminate waste. I'm still waiting. The presidential helicopter thing does seem like a good start, even if it's largely symbolic. It's a good symbol though.
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Re: Obama wants to halve budget deficit
« Reply #17 on: March 03, 2009, 01:30:28 PM »
I generally agree with Ookla.  And Miyabi, Obama quadrupling the record deficit for this year is not simply "political propoganda".  Obama's budget is way out of whack.

I couldn't tell you whether or not we're looking to double the national debt, but assuming we are, and assuming government income were to remain the same over the next four years (it may grow some, or even shrink some, depending on how the recession goes), we could be spending 20% of our taxes simply financing the the debt.  At the moment, we spend approximately 10% of ALL government income on financing the national debt.

The more we spend financing the debt, the less money we have to spend on productive programs for Americans, and the higher we pay in taxes.

In my opinion, ANY deficit is not an option right now.
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Peter Ahlstrom

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Re: Obama wants to halve budget deficit
« Reply #18 on: March 03, 2009, 07:37:04 PM »
Since this budget is mostly a patched-up version of the budget that Bush wasn't going to sign last year, it probably doesn't represent Obama's real vision of a good budget. I think we'll see next year what he really wants, with a budget that's taken months to plan out and arrange the details. I'm guessing it's probably going to still be very Keynesian, but it may be better than this year's, which I guess we're stuck with since they're in a hurry to pass it.
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Loud_G

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Re: Obama wants to halve budget deficit
« Reply #19 on: March 09, 2009, 03:15:12 PM »
I have a friend/coworker here (non-mormon) who forsees a complete finantial debacle due to Obama's finantial plans, which will lead to the country electing Romney 4 years from now because of the man's strong background in economics/finance.


I hope that bigger changes are in store for next year. It could be that it is too soon to drastically rehaul the system, so he had to make some (on the surface) unsound decisions in order to make his plans work next year.

I 'll wait and hope. (All I can do really)
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kevinpii

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Re: Obama wants to halve budget deficit
« Reply #20 on: March 09, 2009, 05:22:56 PM »
I think its rather ironic that Obama says he will get rid of some programs that waste money and then a couple of weeks later signs a bill that authorizes federal funding for embryonic stem cell research. Embryonic stem cells show little to no benefit over adult stem cells, but to appease the Michal J Foxes of the world who don't mind taking another life to better theirs. I'm sorry if this is a touchy issue but it really makes me angry that he undid all the pro-life laws that Bush put into action with just a couple swipes of his pen.

Eerongal

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Re: Obama wants to halve budget deficit
« Reply #21 on: March 09, 2009, 05:38:23 PM »
I think its rather ironic that Obama says he will get rid of some programs that waste money and then a couple of weeks later signs a bill that authorizes federal funding for embryonic stem cell research. Embryonic stem cells show little to no benefit over adult stem cells, but to appease the Michal J Foxes of the world who don't mind taking another life to better theirs. I'm sorry if this is a touchy issue but it really makes me angry that he undid all the pro-life laws that Bush put into action with just a couple swipes of his pen.

Not to start up a debate about it, or say you're wrong or anything, but you do know that most of all stem cells used in embryonic stem cell testing are the by products of in vitro fertility treatments and procedures that are all ready done in the first place?

What this means: Almost all stem cell research comes from left over embryotic tissue from other procedures and experiments that are ALL READY being done, and have nothing barring and/or otherwise stopping them that gets either stored away long past its expectancy to even be viable to grow, or destroyed and disposed of anyways.

In other words: Stem cell research uses what is generally thrown away as garbage from other things,  and has nothing to do with abortions. In fact, the most common procedure that produces it is making the proverbial "Test-tube baby". The left overs are what goes to stem cell research.
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kevinpii

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Re: Obama wants to halve budget deficit
« Reply #22 on: March 09, 2009, 06:04:13 PM »

Not to start up a debate about it, or say you're wrong or anything, but you do know that most of all stem cells used in embryonic stem cell testing are the by products of in vitro fertility treatments and procedures that are all ready done in the first place?

What this means: Almost all stem cell research comes from left over embryotic tissue from other procedures and experiments that are ALL READY being done, and have nothing barring and/or otherwise stopping them that gets either stored away long past its expectancy to even be viable to grow, or destroyed and disposed of anyways.

In other words: Stem cell research uses what is generally thrown away as garbage from other things, and has nothing to do with abortions. In fact, the most common procedure that produces it is making the proverbial "Test-tube baby". The left overs are what goes to stem cell research.
Quote

 I both agree and disagree with your statement. I know that some of these embryos are not viable for implantation, but some are. when they "create" these embryos they make too many so they can weed out the non-viable ones and they almost always have some left over. This is where some of the abortion debate comes in. wether a fertilized egg is considered a baby or not. most pro lifers say yes but the pro abortionists say no.

I personally say these fertilized eggs are babies and most are viable for implant. there are actually embryo adoption programs out there for left over embryos.

 This issue can be debated very heatedly by both sides of the issue, however the life or non life of the embryo is not the only problem. The fact that we are or will be spending our tax dollars on something that has been proven not to work. There is a reason there is such a push to get federal funding, its because there are very few privet groups that are willing to spend their money on something that will not profit them.

Eerongal

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Re: Obama wants to halve budget deficit
« Reply #23 on: March 09, 2009, 06:35:03 PM »
well, i'm by no means arguing that for the most part (at least at this stage) it currently has really nothing to offer. Adult stem cells so far *have* proven quite better at being functional and easier to use. i don't know if this stems from the fact that research could be stunted on the embryonic side because of the debates and legislation and all, or if it just plain has nothing to offer. Only time will tell in this respect if it's allowed to continue.

I believe the pro side to this argument however is basically that. It's something like "Sure, it has pretty much nothing to offer...right *NOW*. Who's to say what the future holds?". There are alot of things that can be theorized they can be used for, which is why there's relevant interest in seeing research continue. What these are, i've no clue.
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darxbane

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Re: Obama wants to halve budget deficit
« Reply #24 on: March 10, 2009, 07:22:18 PM »
By that argument, should the government fund all programs that have potential to have some benefit, maybe?  Or should we let scientists and doctors show a potential that is worth the investment?  Should the government even get involved at all?  It is a purely political and symbolic gesture to the Pro-Choice movement.  It is a waste of our money. 

Miyabi - Please forgive me if I sound condescending, but how on Earth does what you wrote make sense?  People get tax breaks for giving to charity, which decreases the amount of aid the Government needs to give to people who need these charities (and they always get back less than what they give).  Now we are going to reduce the money that is given back, then use that money to give to charities that receive less money because people get less money back?  Do you see how that is foolish?  Not only would people donate less, but the governments increased involvement would mean a percentage of the money that used to go to the charities would now support the additional Bureaucrats needed to "manage" this program.  Government involvement is the problem.  Obama is exactly what he was advertised to be; a socialist liberal who thinks the government should run everyone's life and control all the money.  He says things should be fair, but what is fair about someone else deciding what you should do with your hard earned money?  It amazes me that the repeated failures of this type of system do not deter the idealistic shut-ins who continue to push it.  Our system works because it encourages progress, and encourages earning your way.  If we take that away, we are screwed.
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Peter Ahlstrom

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Re: Obama wants to halve budget deficit
« Reply #25 on: March 10, 2009, 09:06:30 PM »
Quote
It is a purely political and symbolic gesture to the Pro-Choice movement.  It is a waste of our money.
I wouldn't say that. Until very recently, embryonic stem cells were working much better at differentiating into various types of body cells than adult or spinal stem cells were. The push for allowing embryonic stem cells for purely scientific reasons had a lot of momentum which has persisted even though adult stem cell research has come a long way in the meantime. I believe Obama has made this decision for scientific reasons, even though his science may be a bit behind.
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Reaves

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Re: Obama wants to halve budget deficit
« Reply #26 on: March 10, 2009, 09:09:59 PM »
Miyabi - Please forgive me if I sound condescending, but how on Earth does what you wrote make sense?  People get tax breaks for giving to charity, which decreases the amount of aid the Government needs to give to people who need these charities (and they always get back less than what they give).  Now we are going to reduce the money that is given back, then use that money to give to charities that receive less money because people get less money back?  Do you see how that is foolish?  Not only would people donate less, but the governments increased involvement would mean a percentage of the money that used to go to the charities would now support the additional Bureaucrats needed to "manage" this program.  Government involvement is the problem.  Obama is exactly what he was advertised to be; a socialist liberal who thinks the government should run everyone's life and control all the money.  He says things should be fair, but what is fair about someone else deciding what you should do with your hard earned money?  It amazes me that the repeated failures of this type of system do not deter the idealistic shut-ins who continue to push it.  Our system works because it encourages progress, and encourages earning your way.  If we take that away, we are screwed.

In my American History class I read a fascinating original source document written by James Madison as President, in a letter to Congress, explaining why giving $15,000 (about 150,000 today) to French refugees fleeing the Revolution in their own country was unconstitional. I wonder what he would have said to welfare, health insurance, etc...as for government giving to charity he probably would have just laughed.
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Re: Obama wants to halve budget deficit
« Reply #27 on: March 11, 2009, 05:05:28 AM »
Or gotten angry.  I think Jefferson would have been furious.
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darxbane

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Re: Obama wants to halve budget deficit
« Reply #28 on: March 11, 2009, 04:16:51 PM »
Ook, you are forgetting that the foremost scientist in Embryonic stem cell research turned out to be falsifying his research (he was a Korean doctor but I don't remember his name).  Most of the promise relayed turned out to be fabricated.  I work for a BioTech company, and we are willing to invest 10 to 15 years worth of R&D to bring just one drug to market (it often takes that long).  Yet, we are not even touching stem cell research of any kind.  Very few companies are, in fact.  Why?  Because it is about 50 years away.  Believe me, if this was as promising as the proponents say, Biopharma companies would be pouring money into to try to reap the benefits of the miracle drugs that can allegedly be produced. 

Now, with specific regard for embryonic stem cells.  Has anyone stopped to consider what would be necessary if a breakthrough was discovered?  The treatments may require huge numbers of embryos in order to maintain demand.  Where are those going to come from?  You can't clone the same group forever, so new lines would need to be established.  Seeing that stem cells from other sources are 1) easier to come by 2)just as, if not more promising, and 3)Do not spark controversy and debate, then I stand by my belief that the reversal of the federal funding ban is a waste of money and a political ploy. 
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Miyabi

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Re: Obama wants to halve budget deficit
« Reply #29 on: March 11, 2009, 04:32:00 PM »
Darxbane - You aren't seeing the point.  The point is, either way the money is being given back to the people.  The point is that hopefully the people will keep giving to the charities, so we won't have to give as much back to the people.  The only problem is the small amount that isn't given now because people stop because they won't get major tax breaks for it.  If the people continue to give the same amount then the government doesn't have to push out as much money as it was before.
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