02-16-09 Soul Taker Chapter 1 Hamster

[Hamster]

First, to clarify, even though it is chapter 1, it used to be chapter 2, but I changed the order of some stuff. hopefully that clears things up if any of you were wondering why I'm posting two chapter 1's.
Like I said in the email, I feel this is my weakest chapter, so all feedback, no matter how brutal is welcome.
Thanks for reading everyone!

[Frog]

Okay, I am kinds rushing through these this week as I can, but if you need some clarification just ask me and I will get back to you as soon as I can.

Thoughts While Reading:

Agg! The dreaded blurb. Sorry, Reaves got it before, so now it is your turn. It is purely an opinion, but I don't think blurbs do much for the story and I find them a bit annoying. If your quoting someone else, there are copy right issues, and if it is your own made up text book, well, it just isn't very interesting IMO.

"The honour that such an insignificant town would have been included with Westare’s larger cities was much more than the small town of mostly farmers could remember." This sentence is a bit confusing. Is an army passing through the honour, or is it something else?

Okay, this is all good stuff to know about our new friend Riel, but it feels like an info dump when you put it all in front like that. My rule of thumb on these kind of things is that you pick out your favorite telling details and find ways to show the rest through a scene of dialogue and action. Judgments about a character (they are smart, arrogant, nice) have to be proven to your audience, not just stated. In the same scene, don't tell what you show and visa versa. Now I officially feel like a broken record, but maybe it will help someone on here.

The note is probably the most engaging thing I've seen so far on here. Maybe try and start with that?

Dialogue is good too...

You like to POV skip don't you? Well I do too so I'll forgive you. Just try to make it really clear who your MC is. I really need someone to cheer for if I am going to get through a book.

Okay, saw it a couple times so I will go ahead and nitpick. You need to end your quotes with a period if you don't have a 'he said' style tag for them and capitalize the next sentence.

Riel seems to be the character you want to focus on, so please give him something engaging to do right up front. Right now, he just seems to be thinking a lot and I honestly have a hard time caring, even though I know you have some great potential for external conflict here.

Overall Impression:

I saw lots of improvements in this section (you can tell because I was able to give you more specifics in my critique) so keep it up. Good luck!

[Hamster]

Thanks alot for the help Frog.

Agg! The dreaded blurb. Sorry, Reaves got it before, so now it is your turn. It is purely an opinion, but I don't think blurbs do much for the story and I find them a bit annoying. If your quoting someone else, there are copy right issues, and if it is your own made up text book, well, it just isn't very interesting IMO.

About the blurb, I'm probably not going to have blurbs officially, because although I enjoy them, I think they are overused and can be extremely annoying and boring. So I am only writing them to give myself background into my world's history, and feel like including some to get some stuff across. Hopefully they get more interesting later on.

About the whole info dump and telling about Riel, well, that is my biggest weakness in writing. I also wrote this chapter merely to write this chapter and move the plot, so it isn't very inspired, and I just tried to stuff as much info as I think I can reasonably into it. Thanks for your opinion, now I definitely KNOW that it needs extreme revisions.

Glad you liked the dialogue, I have a really hard time trying to create realistic and interesting dialogue( same with the note).

Riel seems to be the character you want to focus on, so please give him something engaging to do right up front. Right now, he just seems to be thinking a lot and I honestly have a hard time caring, even though I know you have some great potential for external conflict here.

While Riel is a main character, I am trying to create a typical hero, but the book's title refers to the main main character, who will be more complex, and much darker, and hopefully more interesting.

You like to POV skip don't you? Well I do too so I'll forgive you. Just try to make it really clear who your MC is. I really need someone to cheer for if I am going to get through a book.

I have a question about the pov skip( I am already taking out pov skips in other chapters), did you think it should even be in there, so merely alluded to afterwards? I feel like I'm way too obviously making JadeEyes a bad guy, he's supposed to obviously bad, but is his scene too much? I felt like it was a short chapter already, so your input would be helpful.

Thanks again for the input, helpful and not as harsh as I expected. 

[Frog]

About the blurb, I'm probably not going to have blurbs officially, because although I enjoy them, I think they are overused and can be extremely annoying and boring. So I am only writing them to give myself background into my world's history, and feel like including some to get some stuff across. Hopefully they get more interesting later on.

Like I said, mostly just a personal opinion there. Just make sure you have a reason if they stay.

About the whole info dump and telling about Riel, well, that is my biggest weakness in writing. I also wrote this chapter merely to write this chapter and move the plot, so it isn't very inspired, and I just tried to stuff as much info as I think I can reasonably into it. Thanks for your opinion, now I definitely KNOW that it needs extreme revisions.

I have read lots of advice from authors that say that the 1st chp, you just get through anyway you can and worry about hooking your audience and cutting out the 'prewriting' when you finish everything else. I just wanted to make sure you knew that it will have to be fixed sometime.

I have a question about the pov skip( I am already taking out pov skips in other chapters), did you think it should even be in there, so merely alluded to afterwards? I feel like I'm way too obviously making JadeEyes a bad guy, he's supposed to obviously bad, but is his scene too much? I felt like it was a short chapter already, so your input would be helpful.

Well, to be quite honest the part with JadeEyes is the most engaging thing you have in that chp right now, so if you take it out you would have to juice up the other scenes a bit. You know, by making the conflict and emotion stand out a bit more. The biggest issue I have with the POV switches is just that they are a bit disorientating to have all at once. I am one that wants to have a firm grip right at first on where we are in the world and who our main players are. Once you firmly establish that, you can twist it up and jump around and do all sorts of crazy stuff that will keep me guessing until the end of the book and I will enjoy it immensely because that's what makes reading fun. 

Thanks again for the input, helpful and not as harsh as I expected. 

Heh, I hate being harsh. I started writing my book when I was about your age and have just barely started showing it to people, so you're a lot braver than I could ever be and deserve full points for that if nothing else. And you're doing enough right that it is nice to think that I am helping, so just keep at it!

[Reaves]

Alright. Despite what you said in your email, I definitely feel this is stronger than your other submission. The "info-dumping" was fine I thought, and didn't break up the pace or give too much information at all. We don't really know much about Riel but he seems like a fairly sympathetic character. I'm interested in his story.

You might have been partially right about the cliches. Lord Cantor seems like the typical bloody duke, put into the story just to give it a vicious enemy. Same thing with JadeEyes; especially because he actually has a viewpoint, you should give him a motive. Why is he doing this? Don't say its just to spread chaos and disruption. Give him a real reason.

Also about RedEyes. He definitely seemed like a villain in your prologue. He let all ten of his guards be killed before actually fighting and then when he did you made it seem like he was using your version of "dark magic!!! oh noes!!!" Now he is allied with Riel. I don't know if we are supposed to see this incongruity or not, but it raises a lot of questions about him.

Once you started talking about the Endurers I was very interested. These guys sound pretty cool. Is RedEye an endurer? (I ask this not because I want you to tell me in a response to this post, but just so you know what questions are running through your readers' minds.)

   The fading sun gleamed off the burnished steel helmets and breastplates of the men marching through the town for a few brief moments before clouds obscured it from view.

This sentence borders on run-on, but I think you pulled it off. However, there are a few other instances where your sentences do go on too long. You are trying to fit too many unconnected ideas into a single sentence.

He had not succeeded yet though, he knew it, and the few adversaries he had left knew it as well.

I personally would put a period after "though". Or just take out "though" and put the period after "yet". But you can probably find a better way to do it that meshes with your style a little better.

  this is all courtesy of the King: Riel Chaldren, if he never came, this would have never happened”.

I don't understand why you put a colon there. The sentence becomes far more awkward.

And who is sitting on the throne at Rostant, he wondered, unless, no, he shook his head violently, it cannot be one of them.

Waaaay too many commas. You should break this down further.

Okay. I'm gonna say it again. This submission was more interesting and more complex than your prologue. I liked it much better. I'm still not completely sold on your story because you haven't shown us a whole lot of the plot yet, but that is absolutely okay Its only chapter One, after all. Keep it up!

[Hamster]

You might have been partially right about the cliches. Lord Cantor seems like the typical bloody duke, put into the story just to give it a vicious enemy. Same thing with JadeEyes; especially because he actually has a viewpoint, you should give him a motive. Why is he doing this? Don't say its just to spread chaos and disruption. Give him a real reason.

Ok, I wasn't very clear in the chaper, Lord Cantor is dead, I was just explaining what it used to be, to contrast with Riel's way of things. He will most likely never be mentioned again. Especially since most of the novel is not in Westare.  *slight spoiler* JadeEyes' motive is to be a secret, it will seem throughout the book like it's just chaos and disruption, but there's more...oh yes...much more. And about the cliches, well, I have cliches and then anti cliches, black and white characters, and then gray characters. You won't know really know which is which for a while. Hopefully I can make it work.

Also about RedEyes. He definitely seemed like a villain in your prologue. He let all ten of his guards be killed before actually fighting and then when he did you made it seem like he was using your version of "dark magic!!! oh noes!!!" Now he is allied with Riel. I don't know if we are supposed to see this incongruity or not, but it raises a lot of questions about him.

Yay! These are things that you should be noticing. I won't say any more.

Once you started talking about the Endurers I was very interested. These guys sound pretty cool. Is RedEye an endurer? (I ask this not because I want you to tell me in a response to this post, but just so you know what questions are running through your readers' minds.)

Yay again! Again, these are the things I want running in my reader's minds.

Okay. I'm gonna say it again. This submission was more interesting and more complex than your prologue. I liked it much better. I'm still not completely sold on your story because you haven't shown us a whole lot of the plot yet, but that is absolutely okay Its only chapter One, after all. Keep it up!

I'm sick of saying yay, so I'll just put a smiley.    This gives me a lot more confidence for my scenes like this, because normally I don't know how to do them. Thanks alot Reaves

[jwdenzel]

hi Hamster!

I enjoyed your previous chapter 1, so I was really looking forward to this submission.  So here we go:

The first few pages were, as you suggested in your email, felt a little heavy on the info-dumping.  I LIKED, however, knowing who this King was and what he had accomplished. Consider adding some creative means of sharing this info. For example, maybe the King looks down at a map, and tries to figure out where the heck this little village is located. That could lead to him thinking thoughts like:  "Now that all of Sahrl is unified, we need to update the maps. This hasn't been done in 1,000 years"  -- or whatever. The point is to try and use the character's POV to lead us into that information.  If you do that, it won't feel like an info dump.   At least, that's how I've noticed other authors tend to do it.

Riel's fake stretch to cover him reaching for the note felt silly. He's the King. The Greatest Man alive right now. His business is his own.  Nobody will question him if he receives a message from one of his messengers.  Why would he fake a stretch? 

Riel turned to the dwarf of a man

Is this man just short?  Or is he literally a human drawf? (ie, a Little Person)?   Or is he a dwarf... like Gimli?

“You stay and make sure the people are treated well enough, we need them. Try to win them over for me; I would stay if I could, but I need to catch some sleep before more impressing matters come up.”

KING: "Hey you! Yeah, you... the short, disfigured, blood-thirsty one! Come here... See those terrified villagers over there?  Go 'win them over for me' and make them love me. I need a nap. I expect your report on my desk in the morning. "

Sorry for having a little fun here, but I do it with great affection.   Would the king REALLY do this? I get the impression from this POV earlier that he seems to care about the people. And if he really is a great and successful man, then he would probably be a good judge of character? (Yes? No?) Why would he give JadeEyes a free hand like that? 

Also, I'm not convinced that JadeEyes' actions against the villagers would go un-heard by the King. Wouldn't he find out? Especially if he was just a short distance away?

"...smiled grimly as storm clouds broke over the sky, advancing like a demon encircling a soul."

I loved that line! Very well done.

"...and remember, this never happened.”

Except for the evidence of the mutilated people, and missing villagers.

Endurers: This is the first time you've mentioned them.  I know you don't want to reveal everything about them here, but perhaps just a little bit more so we can get a sense of what they are?  Are RedEyes and JadeEyes part of this group?  If so, I'd suggest telling us at least that much.

He glanced in a glass mirror tiredly. The king looked as if he was in his mid-thirties; ....

Up until this moment, there were no cliches.  The look-in-the-mirror-to-describe-your-protagonist moment is a big one though. I think the Writing Excuses team talks about this exact situation on their show? If it wasn't them, then they do over at The Dragon Page podcast.    Consider alternative ways to do this.

"... a lone golden sword surrounded by Darkness yet standing firm."

Good metaphor, although the line feels a little awkward IMO.

Overall thoughts:  Another pretty good chapter from you. The prose isn't the cleanest or most elegant, but you had some really strong descriptions in there. (I mentioned a few above).  The pacing was good.  As a matter of fact, both of the first two chapters in the book so far have been paced well.  There's plenty of conflict seeded, which is great.  Maybe just consider adding a little short term conflict, or challenges for the King, in this chapter?   For example: maybe JadeEyes tries hard to convince the king that he should be the one to "win over" the villagers.   The king disagrees, but finally relents after JadeEyes convinces him.   That little debate might spark some conflict and suddenly your chapter is a little more exciting.   (Just an example)

Anyway, I'm liking the novel so far. Keep it coming.

[Hamster]

Thanks jwdenzel, both for this comment and the chapter 2 one. (by the way, I love your sarcastic comments about my writing, I'm ont offended at all, it's all good.)

Riel turned to the dwarf of a man

Is this man just short? Or is he literally a human drawf? (ie, a Little Person)? Or is he a dwarf... like Gimli?

He is just short. I'm trying to avoid the normal cliched fantasy races, no dwarves, elves, dragons, etc.(although I did end up inventing one that is somewhat cliche..)

KING: "Hey you! Yeah, you... the short, disfigured, blood-thirsty one! Come here... See those terrified villagers over there? Go 'win them over for me' and make them love me. I need a nap. I expect your report on my desk in the morning. "

Sorry for having a little fun here, but I do it with great affection. Would the king REALLY do this? I get the impression from this POV earlier that he seems to care about the people. And if he really is a great and successful man, then he would probably be a good judge of character? (Yes? No?) Why would he give JadeEyes a free hand like that?

I'm not saying anything here,but I have my reasons, and so does Riel. (again, I love this sarcasm, almost makes me want to turn this book into a parody. It also actually makes me realize my mistakes better. Thanks again!.

Also, I'm not convinced that JadeEyes' actions against the villagers would go un-heard by the King. Wouldn't he find out? Especially if he was just a short distance away?

You are right about this, I need to edit this part to make it more realistic.

"...and remember, this never happened.”

Except for the evidence of the mutilated people, and missing villagers.

What..noo, that's not very substantial evidence! Ahem, yeah, I should have thought of that, although Riel isn't staying here very long, remember he's going all around the country to each State, so he will most likely apoint a duke here, and leave and won't think to check on the villagers in some fly speck of a town. He's got more important fish to fry.
Random note, I'm going to include a rough map on chapter 3 so you can see where everything is and realize what and where stuff is going on.

Endurers: This is the first time you've mentioned them. I know you don't want to reveal everything about them here, but perhaps just a little bit more so we can get a sense of what they are? Are RedEyes and JadeEyes part of this group? If so, I'd suggest telling us at least that much.

Yeah, I definitely need to mention that RedEyes and JadeEyes are part of it, I thought I made it obvious, but I forgot, *smacks forehead* that in my original prologue, (which included stuff that I deleted before sending it to Reading Excuses) actually mentioned and showed the Endurers, so it was a lot more obvious and clear about who and what endurers were. Thanks for pointing this out.

He glanced in a glass mirror tiredly. The king looked as if he was in his mid-thirties; ....

Up until this moment, there were no cliches. The look-in-the-mirror-to-describe-your-protagonist moment is a big one though.

I definitely see what you're saying, I'll use a different method, although that line you picked is actually pretty important to the book.

Anyway, I'm liking the novel so far. Keep it coming.

Yay!