Author Topic: 02-15-09 Revast, The Well of Creation: Chapter One  (Read 1803 times)

Revast

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02-15-09 Revast, The Well of Creation: Chapter One
« on: February 16, 2009, 03:52:40 AM »
Ok, chapter one is here. Much less adjusting of manhoods, and no sweaty ball references to be found. I look forward to your critiques and suggestions

Thanks

Revast

jwdenzel

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Re: 02-15-09 Revast, The Well of Creation: Chapter One
« Reply #1 on: February 17, 2009, 02:12:55 AM »
Hi Revast,

Thanks for sharing this chapter with us. As before, your ability to create a gritty...uh... desaturated... world feels right for this story.   I like it. 

Constructively, I'll say that once again I had a hard time getting into it.  I think it has to do with the fact that I was unable to immediately connect to your protagonist.  In a prologue, you can get away with being vague and mysterious.  But for chapter 1, I really want to know who the viewpoint character is, where he's at, and what he's trying to do.  Most importantly, I want to know what's at stake and what he's fighting for.   While you address those issues, I was unable to get a very clear read on it.  By the end of the 1st page, I had to fight the urge to start skimming; looking ahead for text that would be easier to digest.  And by the end of the chapter, his motivations left a little flat.   Who do we, as readers, care if he gets this message to Bruav?  From the prologue, we know that Bruav was a jerk and dies. So what if he doesn't get his letter.   What we NEED to care about is your protagonist and his mission somehow.

1st paragraph.... I was confused about all the mountain stuff.  It read awkwardly to me. More importantly, I'm not really sure it adds anything to the story. 

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You’re out there somewhere, I can feel you. I just bloody wish I could see you.
[/i]

Great line.  Consider opening the chapter with this and just go from there.  Everything before it was sorta... blah.

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It collapsed dead in the cold tundra, nearly crushing Proast beneath its frame

Would a horse really do that?  Or would it fall eventually and then pant for a while before eventually passing away?  I'm not sure.  I've never rode a horse to death.  But might be worth investigating. :)

On page 2, when the first arrow is shot at him... your paragraphs continue to be really dense. If you would like fast-paced action here, consider making much short paragraphs. It reads faster and adds to the feel of action. (And would an arrow really "clatter"?  Maybe if somebody dropped a bunch of them on some rocks, but an arrow shot at full force would make a sound different than that IMO)

Here's an example of how maybe you could alter a sample paragraph.  Please accept my apologies if you think I'm micro-managing too much here:

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ORIGINAL
Course decided, he moved briskly, decisively, running at an angle away from where he thought his hunters crouched, hoping to avoid giving them an easy target. “Much easier to hit a man running away than one running across your vision,” he could almost hear Tracker saying. “If you have to present yourself a target, best make it a difficult one.” An arrow clattered somewhere off behind him amidst the rocks, and another embedded itself in snow three paces before him. Then he crashed through the brush rushing into the trees, amidst a measure of safety, amazed that he was in fact still alive. No time for self-congratulation however, they would be close behind. Keeping to the shadows as best he could, changing direction often, though always moving northward, he ran. His friends always proclaimed him the fastest, though truth be told it had more to do with their desire to avoid running than his excelling at it. Today he hoped there words proved to be more than just self-serving talk.

Proast decided in that instant that he much preferred fighting to running away. He’d had little opportunity to do either, but the few raids Brauv called him to, his emotions battling between scared shitless, wanting to curl up into a ball and the bestial rage of killing were far preferable to the constant dread of an arrow through his back at any moment. Better to face an enemy you can see than fear one you can’t. Running at this pace was a constant struggle between giving into his exhaustion, and clinging to the fear of getting caught. Lungs burning, legs on the verge of cramping, his mouth as dry as the sands of Palma, yes, he much preferred fighting.

And now a suggested edit with the intent of increasing the intensity:

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Course decided, he moved briskly, decisively, running at an angle away from where he thought his hunters crouched, hoping to avoid giving them an easy target.

“Much easier to hit a man running away than one running across your vision,” he could almost hear Tracker saying. “If you have to present yourself a target, best make it a difficult one.”

[Suddenly,] An arrow clattered somewhere off behind him amidst the rocks, and another embedded itself in snow three paces before him.

Then he crashed through the brush rushing into the trees, amidst a measure of safety, amazed that he was in fact still alive. No time for self-congratulation however, they would be close behind.

Keeping to the shadows as best he could, changing direction often, though always moving northward, he ran. His friends always proclaimed him the fastest, though truth be told it had more to do with their desire to avoid running than his excelling at it. Today he hoped there words proved to be more than just self-serving talk.

Proast decided in that instant that he much preferred fighting to running away. He’d had little opportunity to do either, but the few raids Brauv called him to, his emotions battling between scared shitless, wanting to curl up into a ball and the bestial rage of killing were far preferable to the constant dread of an arrow through his back at any moment.

Better to face an enemy you can see than fear one you can’t.

Running at this pace was a constant struggle between giving into his exhaustion, and clinging to the fear of getting caught. Lungs burning, legs on the verge of cramping, his mouth as dry as the sands of Palma, [he ran harder]

[Y]es, he much preferred fighting.   

Breaking it up like that also makes it easier for the reader to digest. 


BTW, FWIW, (wow, that's a lot of acronyms), the mountain countryside sounds pretty.  I want to go there. Just without the people trying to kill me. :)

I enjoyed how the pursuer died while trying to cross the river.  Normally I'd say it was silly how he just died without the protagonist taking action, but in this case, you made it believable. Well done.

These are guards chasing him?  Doesn't sound like their guarding anything. 

I did not understand until the scene was over that the 7 foot guy just left.  WHy did he do that?  They pursued your hero across untold miles; over a desert, over a raging river, and now he simply left because they ran into some hidden spiked pits?   Even if he didn't flee, but simply went somewhere else, he would have found Proast when he screamed and tried to remove the arrow from his shoulder.  (And yes, I know he shows up later, but it's days later, right?.  I'm not sure I buy that)

I get the sense that your internal dialogue in italics is being over-used.  Maybe I'm just being picky though.  Same for Tracker's "sayings".  One or two was fine. Beyond that, and Tracker started to get on my nerves.

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The shock in the guards eyes must have been mirrored in Proast’s own as the sword point burst forth from his stomach.

Dues Ex Machina.  If this is how you want the scene to play out, be sure to setup the possibility (even if it's faint) earlier on in the chapter.

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“Unbelievable,” the guard groaned before falling to his knees and rolling over on his back. Proast found himself in total agreement.

Agreed. :(  It needs to be somewhat believable that it could have happened.

Last thing... the chapter could probably be stronger.  "Beginnings" is about as generic as you get.  And there are no beginnings at all in this chapter, save for the fact that its chapter 1.  Consider thinking up new ones. Maybe something to do with him getting a new name?

Keep going.  The chapter is torn up pretty good, but you've got the basis of some really interesting characters and plot.  I look forward to more. :)

BTW - what kind of sub-genre are you going for?  Military fantasy? Or just dark fantasy in general?

J


These are not my stories. I just write them.

Necroben

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Re: 02-15-09 Revast, The Well of Creation: Chapter One
« Reply #2 on: February 17, 2009, 02:42:35 AM »
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Would a horse really do that?  Or would it fall eventually and then pant for a while before eventually passing away?  I'm not sure.  I've never rode a horse to death.  But might be worth investigating.

Short answer, yes.  Slightly longer answer, not all horses will, but depending on the stubbornness of the animal most will.  That came from a veterinarian.  Er, 1vet, 3 vet students.
I don't suffer from insanity...  I enjoy every minuet of it!

It's ok to be strange, as long as it's on paper. :)

Hamster

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Re: 02-15-09 Revast, The Well of Creation: Chapter One
« Reply #3 on: February 17, 2009, 02:47:06 AM »
Wow Revast,
 I absolutely loved this chapter. I especially love your world building, draws me right in.
I have to say right out that I disagree somewhat with jwdenzel; I do feel connected to the protaganist, and even though I disliek Brauv, I didn't want Proast to die alone in the wilderness. I didn't really have an urge to skim at all...after the 1st paragraph, where I agree with him, awkward.  

Your sense of description is very vivid and very detailed, but after awhile it gets just a bit much, especially during action sequences, it's like a going sightseeing while you're being chased, focus more on what Proast is directly coming into contact with for descriptions. But really, I'm trying to find stuff wrong here, when I read it the first time I was totally sucked in and didn't notice many mistakes, so kudos for that!

I do agree with jwdenzel about the deus ex machina at the end, I would have liked foreshadowing, and some more of a reason than the sprung trap gave it away( btw, how did Tracker know the trap was sprung?), and I found that when Tracker spoke it seemed a bit too sophisticated, not much, but what stood out to me was the line,
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"You always was my best pupil.”
, I dunno why, but who uses the word 'pupil'? It just made the sentence sound awkward. Maybe that's just me.

Anyhow, great story, I'm really looking forward to where things are going!

Revast

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Re: 02-15-09 Revast, The Well of Creation: Chapter One
« Reply #4 on: February 17, 2009, 04:07:54 AM »
Thanks for the thoughts so far,

The mountain stuff at the beginning.. ya should probably eliminate it.

Internal dialogue: I know some people seem to hate it, and I scanned future chapters I've already written today to see how much of it persists throughout the story so far. It seems to be less in future chapters, but it is not something I'm going to eliminate entirely. I do feel I probably used to much of it in the prologue, but in chapter one there is no one to talk to. I suppose I could just have him say some of the things he thinks outloud, but at that point it just seems like I'm changing it to change it.

The abrupt ending to the chapter: Ya, I should foreshadow it somehow. Thanks for this suggestion. I have some ideas of how I could do it, and believe it will definitely help the believability. I was kinda going for a bit of ironic humor with the guard saying "Unbelievable," but I would rather it felt more real.

What kind of fantasy am I trying to write? hmm I don't know. It will have magic, and blood gritty fight scenes and dialogue, and some other scenes that I hope don't offend anyone reading, but to be honest probably will (don't worry I will give fair warning. I'm not trying to make people read anything the don't want to read.) I don't necessarily want to call it dark fantasy. The ending, which I've already partially written is a high fantasy ending, where the good guys win. However I don't want to write battle scenes that ignore the ugly side of war. The fact that people are maimed, and that the pain the populace feels from the massive loss of human life doesn't just vanish when the hero's win. All is not happily ever after.

I'm not trying to break any barriers here either, or make people go WOW that was so different. Hopefully I don't disappoint, but I'm not trying to invent a new genre or amazing out there story. The good guys will feel pain and loss, just like the bad, and somewhere along the lines I hope to make the reader question if the good guys are any better than the bad, or if the moral high ground is really a place for fairy tells. Whether I can accomplish all this, I don't know.

And finally, I just want to write something that I enjoy reading, and that others enjoy as well. Really as long as my wife still looks at me every once in a while after reading a chapter and demands to know what happens next, I'll be happy. :P

Ok to much internal dialogue there... You guys didn't need to know that rofl.

jwdenzel

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Re: 02-15-09 Revast, The Well of Creation: Chapter One
« Reply #5 on: February 17, 2009, 06:39:01 AM »
@Necroben... Really?  Cool. Thanks for clarifying. :) 

@ Revast... I hope I didn't sound too harsh.  I sincerely see some great potential here in your first few chapters so I want to make sure you get some honest feedback.  Others here in his group can attest I'm not just picking on you.

And, as illustrated by other comments above, people can get hooked in different ways.

I wanted to add earlier that I especially liked how each member of "the gang" gets their own name. And this guy, Lightfoot, is trying hard to fit in and be accepted.  That's a cool thing... consider just telling us about it much earlier than the 5,000th word?   Plus, I don't know if you're going for that, but that whole notion of working hard to be accepted by peers is a fantastic theme that pretty much everyone can relate to.  If that's what you're going for, then I'm impressed at how well you introduce it. :)

Looking forward to ch 2.
These are not my stories. I just write them.

Revast

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Re: 02-15-09 Revast, The Well of Creation: Chapter One
« Reply #6 on: February 17, 2009, 03:32:46 PM »
@Necroben... Really?  Cool. Thanks for clarifying. :) 

@ Revast... I hope I didn't sound too harsh.  I sincerely see some great potential here in your first few chapters so I want to make sure you get some honest feedback.  Others here in his group can attest I'm not just picking on you.

And, as illustrated by other comments above, people can get hooked in different ways.

I wanted to add earlier that I especially liked how each member of "the gang" gets their own name. And this guy, Lightfoot, is trying hard to fit in and be accepted.  That's a cool thing... consider just telling us about it much earlier than the 5,000th word?   Plus, I don't know if you're going for that, but that whole notion of working hard to be accepted by peers is a fantastic theme that pretty much everyone can relate to.  If that's what you're going for, then I'm impressed at how well you introduce it. :)

Looking forward to ch 2.

/Shrug harsh is ok. I don't have to change anything I don't want to. :P

And harsh critisizm makes you really examine your own work. It is nice to hear the occasional, "I loved it," from a different source as well to help keep you from feeling like what you are doing sucks and you should just quit. lol I felt like I got a lot out of the critique's so far. I was given some good feedback, some encouragement, and helpful ideas to improve. Pretty much what I'm wanting from the group. :)

And many of your suggestions have been very helpful. I really liked your example of how to break apart that chapter, and plan on going through several portions of the story so far that I need to feel exciting and seeing if I can apply that to them to help the flow.

Reaves

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Re: 02-15-09 Revast, The Well of Creation: Chapter One
« Reply #7 on: March 02, 2009, 06:05:05 PM »
I finally got to it!! Yes!!

I think this chapter seems like a higher quality than the prologue. Maybe that is just because I really didn't like Brauv, or maybe its actually the quality of the prose. Who knows. But I liked this one much better.
There were several times when I read something and thought to myself, "oh, thats a cool turn of phrase," or "interesting." Good job.

At the very beginning, when Proast is thinking to himself about mountains, it seemed unnecesary. I suppose its good to know we are in the mountains but really it seemed like Proast was rambling to himself. Did not like.  >:(

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   The land lay quiet, to quiet. 
Cliche. It jars me out of the story.

About a third of the way in I started thinking that the chase might be a little too drawn out, but right after that you got me interested again. I think you did a really good job with the pacing in this chapter, slowly, carefully amping up the tension. I don't know if that was purposeful or not but it worked very well.

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Running at break neck speeds, apply named he imagined, he ran until he thought his lungs would rip open, then ran some more. 
breakneck should be one word, I think. Besides the spelling errors however I would rethink the structure of this sentence. A few too many commas.

Ahh! What are bloodsuckers!!

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Luck was fickle friend he did not like to count on. His own being piss poor even in the best of times. 
   This is one of those cool turns of phrase I was talking about.

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  Frothy and churning, like the top layer of suds on a freshly poured ale...
  Here is another one. Nice. You don't see too many good similes around these days.

Can I just say you have some very graphic death descriptions?  ;D Very nice. Right now I'm reading how the archer is trying to hop across Whiteriver and dies  :o I'm guessing this will be a dark fantasy  8)

Very nice scene when Proast is trying to get the arrow out of his shoulder. The memories of Tracker talking really made it, in my opinion. However, I didn't really understand what he was doing with the tree. Was he trying to knock the arrow against the tree and get it out that way? Doesn't make a whole lot of sense, imo. If I was him I would get a bit of twine, tie one end around the arrow shaft and the other end around the tree, then throw myself away from the tree and get it out that way. Also it seems like having something to bite down on would be common sense.

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Every nick of the stone arrowhead gleamed clear in Proast’s eyes.   
Huh. Why is it stone?

Also, can I just say kudos for introducing the big, seven foot guy earlier, and then bringing him back? Nice job.

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Unbelievable,” the guard groaned before falling to his knees and rolling over on his back.   
  This bit of dialogue doesn't seem like the sort of thing someone would say once they've been shot.

Also, I love the last line of the chapter  :D

Overall I enjoyed this chapter. It was an easy and painless read that kept me interested the whole way through. Proast and the other tracker guys don't seem to be likable people, but they are sympathetic characters. Huge difference.


Now reading other people's comments...

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1st paragraph.... I was confused about all the mountain stuff.  It read awkwardly to me. More importantly, I'm not really sure it adds anything to the story. 

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You’re out there somewhere, I can feel you. I just bloody wish I could see you.

Great line.  Consider opening the chapter with this and just go from there.  Everything before it was sorta... blah.

 
This is what I meant to say regarding the mountains. jwdenzel put it a lot better.

I also agree with him about the horse. Something about it bugged me, but not enough that I decided to comment on it.

I don't know if I agree or disagree with him about the paragraphs being too dense. Everyone has their own style and I thought the way you were presenting the paragraphs were fine as I was reading.

About the seven-foot guy dying suddenly and without warning:
I could see it coming. As soon as they starting talking I knew that someone would run in at the last instant and save Proast...because if the hero didn't survive past the first chapter there wouldn't be much of a story, would there? (I'm smirking on the inside because I did exactly this. Well, my character survives, but he died first...)
« Last Edit: March 02, 2009, 06:06:49 PM by Reaves »
Quote from: VegasDev
RJF: "AHA! You fell victim to one of the classic blunders! The most famous is never get involved in a land war in Cairhien, but only slightly less well-known is this: never go in against a warder when he is only the distraction! Get him Rand! Buzzzzzzz!

Revast

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Re: 02-15-09 Revast, The Well of Creation: Chapter One
« Reply #8 on: March 02, 2009, 06:27:11 PM »
Thanks Reaves :)

To a couple of your points:

The mountain scene: Yes it was bad, I eliminated it.

The abrupt death of the giant guy, I took some advice and foreshadowed it I think decently.

The stone arrowhead: You know now that you mention it I'm not sure why I made it stone. It shouldn't be. Thanks

Type of fantasy: Yes, I guess it is dark fantasy. I was trying not to label it, but now that I'm 10 chapters in it is dark.

Thanks for your critique!!