Author Topic: Get rid of all the elves?  (Read 4139 times)

Frog

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Get rid of all the elves?
« on: January 29, 2009, 10:19:06 PM »
Okay, I kinda got here on a less traditional way. My friend pulled me into Reading Excuses and it’s been so much fun (you guys rock!) that I have recently been exploring other parts of the site and finally found the Writing Excuses Podcasts. For the most part, I have loved the advice they had on there and found it very helpful, but I had enough opinions on his most recent stream I thought it might make a semi interesting discussion.

If you didn’t listen to it or need a refresher, along with some really good advice on building non human characters, he talked about removing the Tolkien and non original races, most specifically elves, and I have to say if he ever succeeds in doing so, I might never forgive him.

I love reading about nonhuman races; traditional, cliché or whatever else. There are so many fun creatures floating around in Tolkien (who got his races from other sources and twisted them around too), DnD and mythology that all need their own stories by any author that can give them life and do them justice. Certainly you don’t want some 2 dimensional cliché thrown in just because, but you can say that about any character, elf or no. In fact, I am personally am getting tired of writers (not Sanderson, but some others) throwing in 2 dimensional cliché people but he didn’t say ‘get rid of all the humans and stop copying God’ and he never will because readers need some familiarity for the whole emotional connection that is so important in fiction.

I am a big believer in the concept of ‘it’s not what you do but it is how you do it,’ so go ahead and take something that you love and find a way to make it your own- whether it be elves, dwarves, goblins, dragons or hobbits- and as long as you leave the dice out of it, I will enjoy reading it for many years to come.

On another related note, though I love fantasy I tend to get annoyed when writers start throwing in a ton of new creatures/terms. Some for variety and to set the stage of your new world, yes, but not a WHOLE lot. It gets confusing and it looks a bit like they are showing off just because they can. If it is a twist on an elf or a fancy new sword, call it an elf/sword and you can qualify it later, but at least I have that initial picture in my mind instead of one big headache. I would hope that most readers are open minded enough to allow for this because there is such thing as being too original after all.

At least those are my thoughts, what about you?

Oh, and just to clarify once again, I love the advice on the podcasts and what I have read of Brandon Sanderson (Haven’t gotten past the first Mistborn yet, but I will!) so please don’t think I’m a hater, just looking for some interesting discussion.
« Last Edit: January 30, 2009, 03:47:33 AM by Frog »
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maxonennis

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Re: Get rid of all the elves?
« Reply #1 on: January 29, 2009, 11:30:12 PM »
As a reader, if I see on the back of a book vampires, elves, orcs etc, I don't read it. Because the odds are if the author is using Tolkien-eque species, then they are also using Tolkien's plots. (In regards to vampires and werewolves, they're far too over done in every way--I hate Twilight :-X )

I've never written using any already created species, particularly the Tolkien-eque, because they've explored too far anyway that there is nothing new to say about them.
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Frog

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Re: Get rid of all the elves?
« Reply #2 on: January 30, 2009, 12:19:28 AM »
Aw, well if you're not going to open a book based on that, then it would be a waste of my time to try to convince you otherwise, so I won't, but I might argue that the reason that Twilight sucked was not because it had vampires (because vampires are cool ;D) but it was because the MC was a 2 dimensional girl that did nothing but moon over said vampire.

And I wouldn't necessarily say there is nothing to do with the races that Tolkien used, just that there is nothing more to do with how Tolkien used them. An elf that sits around being poised and superhuman all day is boring, but I could read several more books with different elves like the ones in HP or Weis and Hickman (especially when they got out of dragonlance) and not be bored.

But maybe I am just easily entertained.

Thanks for the thoughts!
« Last Edit: January 30, 2009, 12:29:57 AM by Frog »
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little wilson

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Re: Get rid of all the elves?
« Reply #3 on: January 30, 2009, 12:27:27 AM »
Heh. That wasn't the only reason Twilight sucked....

And I don't generally read elves and stuff like that, but I have nothing against them, and if a book has elves or dwarves or something like that in it, I'm not going to not read it solely based on that factor. If the back of the book sounds interesting and the first pages of the book read well, then yeah. I'll go for it.

But superhuman elves are over-done....Tolkien did them. Everyone else copying Tolkien made them over-done. Like Eragon....Copy-cat much? But that's for a different thread on a different board. The point is, if you can write elves, or any other seemingly "Tolkien-esque" creature, originally, then it's fine. But if you're just gonna copy, pick a different race/species.
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Necroben

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Re: Get rid of all the elves?
« Reply #4 on: January 30, 2009, 12:58:43 AM »
But what about blending the familiar with the extraordinary?  These "Tolkien-eque" characters are now the familiar in a fantasy setting.  The use of magic, no matter how different, could also still be considered the familiar.  As a reader I like those kinds of stories, I know elves and dwarves and for the most part they become part of the setting.  They set a certain feel to the whole book.  I don't need an amazing experience every time I read.  I'm mean if everything were amazing, I could no longer compair it to something that isn't.  If that makes any sense. ::)  Besides, these non-humans have been around a lot longer than Tolkien.  Just because some one uses them, doesn't mean they're coping Tolkien.  I learned about elves and dwarves long before I read LOTR.
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Reaves

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Re: Get rid of all the elves?
« Reply #5 on: January 30, 2009, 02:17:26 AM »
when was the last time you read a fantasy that included elves or dwarves that wasn't copying Tolkien? I'd be quite interested in reading it, frankly.
The fact is that elves as we know them today were completely redefined by Tolkien. In his day, elves were the little creatures with pointy noses at Santa's Workshop, and practically indistinguishable from goblins and faeries. Dwarves have obviously changed less (their name does mean short after all) but they were practically the same except for their feuds with elves. I don't really believe anyone used them otherwise before the Lord of the Rings was published. Its not like anyone was writing serious fantasy before Tolkien, and perhaps Lewis, were published  :P
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Frog

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Re: Get rid of all the elves?
« Reply #6 on: January 30, 2009, 03:20:20 AM »
Did it look like I was dissing Tolkien? Sorry, I didn't mean to because he was great and we certainly owe him a lot in kick starting fantasy, I just think that things can be influenced by him without being completely worthless copies. Like those books I mentioned in the previous post that had elves but with their own obvious twists.

Like, Ben, I really don't feel the need to be completely floored by everything I read, just entertained and I am all for mixing the familiar with the extraordinary. So maybe there are still ways to take a purely Tolkienesque superhuman elf and make it entertaining, I just haven't found it yet, but I would be willing to give another author a try.

And that goes for all the others (in Tolkien, DnD and mythology) too because I like things about all of them. :)
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Necroben

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Re: Get rid of all the elves?
« Reply #7 on: January 30, 2009, 05:12:36 AM »
The first I read of elves was from Bulfinch's Mythology.  Collections of stories from ancient fable and myth.  And those elves aren't santa's little helpers.  If I remember correctly, they are the hairbringers of Ragnorok.  Also, Arbor house had some collections of short novels and stories dating to the early 1900's.  Alas, my copy was lost in a fire but the one remaining I have left has some stories from 1941-43.  It was edited by Robert Silverburg and Martin H. Greenburg in 1980.

when was the last time you read a fantasy that included elves or dwarves that wasn't copying Tolkien? I'd be quite interested in reading it, frankly.

Jennifer Roberson:  Chronicles of the Cheysuli.  Off the top of my head.  I'll do some digging around in my library to see what else I can come up with.
« Last Edit: January 30, 2009, 05:17:33 AM by Necroben »
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Dangerbutton

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Re: Get rid of all the elves?
« Reply #8 on: January 30, 2009, 07:11:58 AM »
I think I've changed my mind on this subject quite a bit over the years. At one point I was a huge fan of the traditional elves, but at another I was very much against them. For a while I thought they were only cool if you gave them a twist to make them different. Right now, I'd say I don't really care. I personally don't care to include them in any books I'm writing, but I'm not going to reject a book just because it has elves.
I think that it depends a lot on the situation. In a book, as I said, I don't really care. Include elves, exclude elves, whatever. I play a lot of games, though. I also like to design games (mostly roleplaying games). I have noticed that in fantasy games, the traditional elves, dwarves, etc. seem to work best. They can have twists (for example, the warcraft setting takes a different angle on a lot of them), but I tend to like them more when they stick with what we're used to. In a book, where you have time to learn about and familiarize yourself with unique races, it's different from a game, where you've got to play with a race you are unfamiliar with. Even a well written rpg isn't going to give you as much insight into an original race that they've invented as a few chapters of a book will. (however, I'm going to have to admit that there are exceptions with games, too. At least, I'd hope so, because I realize that none of the races in an rpg I'm working on are traditional.  :-\)
Vampires, though. I'm sick of vampires.

maxonennis

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Re: Get rid of all the elves?
« Reply #9 on: January 30, 2009, 08:46:07 AM »
Every angle for vampires, elves, dwarfs, warewolves, orcs--powerrangers?--, has already been done. If none of these species were ever used in a book again it would still take you YEARS, probably more along the lines of decades unless that was all you did, to read all the books with just one of them.

The reason I won't read a book with these (and more) creatures (and varying colored powerrangers) is because the only way you can keep my interest is for them to be so different from the originals that they should be named something else (why is the pink ranger always female ???).
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Dangerbutton

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Re: Get rid of all the elves?
« Reply #10 on: January 30, 2009, 09:04:48 AM »
He's got a point with the Power Rangers

Frog

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Re: Get rid of all the elves?
« Reply #11 on: January 30, 2009, 09:44:32 AM »
Every angle for vampires, elves, dwarfs, warewolves, orcs--powerrangers?--, has already been done. If none of these species were ever used in a book again it would still take you YEARS, probably more along the lines of decades unless that was all you did, to read all the books with just one of them.

The reason I won't read a book with these (and more) creatures (and varying colored powerrangers) is because the only way you can keep my interest is for them to be so different from the originals that they should be named something else (why is the pink ranger always female ???).

I guess for me that would kind of beg the question of why anyone writes new novels since we obviously aren't going to be able to read every book out there or avoid all familiar territory. I tend to like the newer stuff because writing styles tend to evolve even if subject matter doesn't and I guess I always assumed readers in general had more patience than people only out for the latest block buster, but I could be wrong about that. Like I said, I am a very easy person to entertain. And I am definitely against the thought that just by adding a few new names or horns or powers to your creature/race suddenly makes your book more enjoyable, though you should be welcome to try that too and see what you come up with.

But now I am wondering about that male pink power ranger. What are his hopes, dreams and aspirations based on being a pink power ranger? Does he somehow feel inferior to the other power rangers? Could he finally find someone to look beyond his pink exterior and love him for who he is? Oh, the drama!  ;)

Jennifer Roberson:  Chronicles of the Cheysuli.  Off the top of my head.  I'll do some digging around in my library to see what else I can come up with.
Haven't read that one yet. Is it good and relatively clean (say at or above RJ level)?
« Last Edit: January 30, 2009, 05:52:54 PM by Frog »
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Pipe

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Re: Get rid of all the elves?
« Reply #12 on: January 30, 2009, 10:28:49 AM »
I am a big believer in the concept of ‘it’s not what you do but it is how you do it,’ so go ahead and take something that you love and find a way to make it your own- whether it be elves, dwarves, goblins, dragons or hobbits- and as long as you leave the dice out of it, I will enjoy reading it for many years to come.

I'm with you on that. I think the problem is that it's just harder to make something your own if you're taking on a concept or idea which has been done so often that there is a solid template of it in the head of most people (probably including yourself and potential readers). Not that I'm saying it can't be done, just that it seems to me to be more of a challenge.

A clear example of both the possibility and the difficulty I think of making new stories with old concepts/materials can be seen in the still-ongoing comics of iconic super-heroes like Superman, Batman, Spiderman etc. While it is still possible to make fresh, innovative stories with these characters despite their age and familiarity (see All-Star Superman) the fact that these characters have to regularly go through "shake-ups" (or ret-cons in Spideys case) shows how hard it can be.

when was the last time you read a fantasy that included elves or dwarves that wasn't copying Tolkien? I'd be quite interested in reading it, frankly.

While I only have the first part of the game to base this opinion on, the world of the Witcher stories by Polish fantasy writer Andrzej Sapkowski seems to be one where you do have Tolkienesque elves but a style of tale that is fairly different from the Lord of the Rings.

maxonennis

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Re: Get rid of all the elves?
« Reply #13 on: January 30, 2009, 06:10:02 PM »
But now I am wondering about that male pink power ranger. What are his hopes, dreams and aspirations based on being a pink power ranger? Does he somehow feel inferior to the other power rangers? Could he finally find someone to look beyond his pink exterior and love him for who he is? Oh, the drama!  ;)

The Pink Ranger’s name is Kyle Grant. He is seventeen, and a senior in high school. He was raised by a single mother (who had “attachment issues”) and his three older sisters. His mother was in her early forties when he was born, and his eldest sister, Linda, had graduated from high school two months before. His other two sisters were also in high school when he was born, but their not important enough to his story to talk about right now.

Linda and his mother alternated the responsibilities of raising Kyle. He was the baby of the family…until Linda got married and had a daughter named Trelawney. Kyle was six going on seven when this happened (five when Linda married) and suddenly found that he was without mommy number two.

That began the competition for Linda’s attention between Kyle and Trelawney. (Linda was a strong willed, level headed woman who acted the part of "daddy" for Kyle.) The battle was long and bitter, each of the children going to great lengths to catch Linda’s attention (her husband wasn’t too happy about the ongoing war between the kids, and he eventually divorced Linda in part because of it).

Then puberty came kicked in…

Kyle had long ago adopted the theme of “imitation is the most sincere form of flattery” and has been copying Linda’s strong, assertive personality for years. It got to the point that they had eventually become his own. So when it happened that he came to  be chosen to be a Power Ranger and the only available costume that was left was pink, he didn’t hesitate to accept it and the duty to his planet. (The other Rangers think he’s gay, but Kyle doesn’t feel compelled to correct them.)
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Frog

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Re: Get rid of all the elves?
« Reply #14 on: January 30, 2009, 07:14:25 PM »
 :D HE WROTE ME A STORY ABOUT A PINK POWER RANGER! :D

I think his story illustrates one of the advantages of being less then 'original.' I mean, he never had to explain to me what a power ranger was and can spend a lot more time developing Kyle's character or going off on related tangents. Now we can have Kyle, the pink power ranger, in a death match with Tolkien elves and Edward the Vampire and it would be so much fun. Maybe it's not original, but I would read it. In fact, I just did.

You can do it, Kyle! Show those other power rangers who's boss!

(What did I tell you about being easily entertained?)
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