Author Topic: Sex and sexuality in the Mistborn series...missing?  (Read 36689 times)

ryanjm

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Re: Sex and sexuality in the Mistborn series...missing?
« Reply #30 on: January 27, 2009, 12:20:39 AM »
As far as sexuality goes, I felt that there was something missing in the relationship between Vin and Elend.  Obviously there are people who'll disagree with me, but it didn't feel like this was a girlfriend/boyfriend or husband/wife relationship to me.  It felt more like two best friends or at best brother/sister, so when I'd come across a scene  of affection it seemed odd to me.  Is sexuality the part that is missing?  I don't know maybe I just needed more scenes of affection for this relationship to feel real.

I felt the same way.  And I also agree with you that I think this series is really, really good, and want to emphasize that this is just a very small part of the series that I thought could have used a little spice.  But it's kinda boring to make a thread saying "omg I love this series, don't you?"

I also agree with you TMan. I kinda chuckled at DangerButton's "Even a teenage boy whose hormones are probably raging just as much as every other teenage boy's isn't automatically start thinkin sexual things about a girl he is attracted to."   As one of 5 brothers, let me assure you that that view is a very, ah, 'interesting.'  :D

Reaves

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Re: Sex and sexuality in the Mistborn series...missing?
« Reply #31 on: January 27, 2009, 12:49:58 AM »
Note: sex is not bad, evil, or dirty. We have a silly culture that says it is, so leaving it out of a book is just fine for sales, but I find it very hard to believe a "gratuitous sex scene" is worse than the bloody, gory mess Vin leaves in her wake.

I disagree.

OK, my approach is really somewhat more nuanced than that, but did you want to discuss anything or just lay down moral fiats?

I also completely disagree. With both of you.

I believe sex is amazing. I believe its a gift from God specifically for a married husband and wife.

As for Algorithm, I think you'd be hard-pressed to give evidence that our culture thinks sex is bad or evil...
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Re: Sex and sexuality in the Mistborn series...missing?
« Reply #32 on: January 27, 2009, 01:55:43 AM »
I suppose it's up to the individual author to decide if it's relevant to the story or a distraction. Brandon did a good job describing Vin and Elend's relationship and maybe a sex scene would have stopped the story cold in it's tracks. Who knows?? I could go either way. Some book I've read have some pretty graphic sex scenes, like a couple of Stephen King's books do. They fit the story and served their purpose. Not all books are alike. So, I don't necessarily think it was "missing" from Mistborn. More that it just didn't belong.

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Re: Sex and sexuality in the Mistborn series...missing?
« Reply #33 on: January 27, 2009, 03:08:45 AM »
I agree with JoeC. Each book or series has a kind of "feel" to it, and certain things (sex in some cases, violence in others (!)) disrupt the atmosphere.
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Re: Sex and sexuality in the Mistborn series...missing?
« Reply #34 on: January 27, 2009, 06:03:21 AM »
I kinda chuckled at DangerButton's "Even a teenage boy whose hormones are probably raging just as much as every other teenage boy's isn't automatically start thinkin sexual things about a girl he is attracted to."   As one of 5 brothers, let me assure you that that view is a very, ah, 'interesting.'  :D

Just because you and your brothers may automatically have sexual thoughts about girls you're attracted to doesn't make it the same for every guy. I'm not a guy, and I don't talk about this stuff with my friends who ARE guys, but I know them well enough that they DON'T have sexual thoughts about girls they're attracted to. Well, they may have a couple but it's FAR from all the time, or even every time they see the girl.

And for TMan....I believe Dangerbutton's comment on Vin and Elend's strong relationship was pretty much solely for those two. It's different for another couple. Obviously your girlfriend is okay with you checking her out. I don't think Vin would necessarily appreciate Elend checking her out or having sexual thoughts about her, or at least Elend has a very good reason to THINK she wouldn't appreciate that (ie, her reaction in FE that Dangerbutton already mentioned).
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Re: Sex and sexuality in the Mistborn series...missing?
« Reply #35 on: January 27, 2009, 12:11:50 PM »
This is a discussion that could easily get out of hand, so I'm going to try not to put down my opinion too strongly. Moreover, I want to stress that everyone is entitled to his/her own opinions on this.

little_wilson, I think it's very naive to believe that your male friends don't have sexual thoughts about girls they are attracted to.  There may be guys who don't, but I think the majority does. On the other hand, it's probably better if most girls believe guys don't do that sort of thing ;)

I agree with ryanjm on the sexuality thing between Elend & Vin. I personally would be quite disappointed if my girlfriend never "checked me out", or let's say "looked at me appreciatively". I did mis this sort of tension between them, the magic just wasn't there. However, I don't think a graphic sex-scene would have fit in the Mistborn novels.

And I did very much like the books, so I don't think its that bad after all :)

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Re: Sex and sexuality in the Mistborn series...missing?
« Reply #36 on: January 27, 2009, 03:50:41 PM »
I thought that their relationship was just right for them. It was a little odd, but then they were not the most normal couple or in the most normal of situations. I thought it mirrored their personalities and circumstances quite well the way it was.

Btw, I am a guy and didn't have sexual thoughts as a teen. I appreciated form, but never thought about sex. I'm serious. Looking and kissing were the ONLY remotely sexual things on my mind as a teen. Mostly looking.

The sad thing is that most guys are 'trained' through pop culture to think otherwise.  I avoided 'pop' culture for the most part in my teens and probably missed out on that subtle conditioning.
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Re: Sex and sexuality in the Mistborn series...missing?
« Reply #37 on: January 27, 2009, 04:04:40 PM »
As a guy I think it's a tad outrageous to say that you did not EVER have any sexual thoughts as teen. You're either not human or not a guy in that case. The human male has hormones that force those thoughts into your mind, to procreate is the one thing that drives any and all species. Now, thats not to say all males have porn sequences running through there minds 24-7 but by way of science there was some type of urge there that lead to certain thoughts. I can concede that some are better than others at limiting them  but to say you never had ANY of those thoughts....no... I really can't see that.
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Re: Sex and sexuality in the Mistborn series...missing?
« Reply #38 on: January 27, 2009, 04:46:55 PM »
before this get entirely derailed and it devolves into "no, you should think this" let's cut a few things out of these comments:

1. stop with the generalizations.  just cause 1 person does something does not make it the same across an entire genre, gender, religion, etc (you get the picture).

2. telling a person that you doubt they think how they do isn't helpful to the discussion.  if someone says they dont think that way, then they don't.  its not up to you to question their character. 

I didn't think of every girl sexually, am i gonna get called a liar too? different people are different.  period.

as far as all of this relates to novels, each author has their own comfort-zone. some have no probs putting sexuality in in any form.  some prefer that it all have meaning. some throw it in for shock value.  to each his (or her) own. I tend to agree with prior posters who said that I don't think the lack (or the very subtle nature of it) did harm to the novels. I just dont think it would have fit in Mistborn.  That being said, I dont doubt that if Brandon decided to put some more detailed scenes in, that they would be tasteful and have a strong reason for their presence.  :D

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Vatdoro

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Re: Sex and sexuality in the Mistborn series...missing?
« Reply #39 on: January 27, 2009, 05:01:07 PM »
If you grew up regularly attending a Christian church, you can probably relate to this next bit.  ;)
"When I was a teenager I heard that every time you have a inappropriate thought you should sing a hymn in your head to help you think of something else. Well, now every time I hear a church hymn I have a dirty thought."
Hehe.

OK, now to try and bring this back to the original topic. For me, Vin and Elend's relationship could have used a little more flirting. It seems natural for Elend's POV to notice Vin's attractive features (eyes, smile, curves, etc..) almost every time he sees her.
I really enjoyed Mistborn, but I'm expecting Brandon will get better at this each book he writes. People have mentioned there's more "noticing physical attractions" in Warbreaker, but I haven't read it yet. (Need to do that soon!)

I really like how sexuality is treated in WoT. The characters thoughts about the opposite sex seem realistic to me, but the actual sex scenes are all off screen. I think that's how I prefer it in MOST of the fantasy I read.

Comfortable Madness

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Re: Sex and sexuality in the Mistborn series...missing?
« Reply #40 on: January 27, 2009, 05:07:05 PM »

I didn't think of every girl sexually, am i gonna get called a liar too? different people are different.  period.


Well, I never called anyone a liar and I never said that all guys think of EVERY girl sexually. Nothing even remotely close to that actually. People are different but, in general, human beings all work the same way. That is not just some generalization but scientific fact. People may vary in a variety of areas but when looking at one of the most primal of instincts, to procreate, there is little wiggle room. There are anomalies, of course, but all human beings, male or female, have the drive to procreate.

Also, of course I can't say for 100% fact that one person thinks the way they do. You're right only that person knows EXACTY just what they themselves think. All I can go off of is the evidence laid out before me and the evidence before me is in direct contradiction with what was said.
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Peter Ahlstrom

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Re: Sex and sexuality in the Mistborn series...missing?
« Reply #41 on: January 27, 2009, 05:46:47 PM »
I didn't notice breasts in an "oh my goodness, there are girls walking all around me who have breasts" sort of way until I was 22 years old. Idiosyncratic sexual development does not surprise me in the least.

As for Vin and Elend, I just don't think we're in their heads at the moments when they have certain trains of thought, and I don't think it detracts from the novel at all.
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happyman

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Re: Sex and sexuality in the Mistborn series...missing?
« Reply #42 on: January 27, 2009, 07:25:25 PM »
I have to agree with Ookla on this one.  They clearly *do* think about each other that way sometimes (context is important), but not all the time.  After they get married, for instance, they have something of a honeymoon, and seem to enjoy it.  Brandon just had no particular reason to make a big point of it.

I would also like to add that attraction and thinking can and do vary even in the same human over time.  At its most basic level (I've experienced this myself) it is quite possible to be attracted to somebody in a social setting without thinking what are generally known as "dirty thoughts".  There's an entire spectrum of interaction and behavior, with complete disinterest at one end and sex at the other.  Societal norms of behavior, especially in company, play a big role here.  Most of the places we see Vin and Elend interacting are public (Book 1) or with an emotional barrier between them (Book 2).

Oh, and Elend wanted to kiss Vin, and Vin was disappointed when he didn't (Book 1).  Once again, it's all a matter focus and interpretation.  Spook apparently went through a phase where he was ogling every girl he met.  Breeze was strongly, physically attracted to Arriane (sp?), an attraction in which she was actively complicit (an advantage of being a Rioter), and which it seems is safe to  assume was reciprocal .  Kelsier, on the other hand, was not interested in Vin, probably because he was still emotionally attached to Mare.  These relationships are part of the normal spectrum of human behavior; just because Brandon took them for granted rather than going into detail and going hog-wild hollywood style doesn't mean he's doing a bad job or that they don't fit into the book.  It just means that it's not what the book is about.
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ryanjm

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Re: Sex and sexuality in the Mistborn series...missing?
« Reply #43 on: January 27, 2009, 07:58:50 PM »
Just because you and your brothers may automatically have sexual thoughts about girls you're attracted to doesn't make it the same for every guy. I'm not a guy, and I don't talk about this stuff with my friends who ARE guys, but I know them well enough that they DON'T have sexual thoughts about girls they're attracted to. Well, they may have a couple but it's FAR from all the time, or even every time they see the girl.

Not to belabor the point, but I agree with you that it's not the same for every guy.  As a male, who definitely discusses this with his male friends/relatives, it only applies to the vast majority of us and anyone I've ever spoken to about it in person.  Just for future reference, you refuted what I said by saying "Well first of all, I'm not a guy and I don't really talk to other guys about it, so I really don't know what I'm talking about, BUT here's what I think anyway."  This is not the best way to begin an argument.

"Hey guys, I'm not a doctor, and I never talk to other doctors, but I think we should amputate."  ???

Just to throw down the gauntlet and let anyone who's interested in facts and scientific studies instead of all these random strange opinions, etc...
http://www.kinseyinstitute.org/resources/FAQ.html
That site is basically the bible of sexual research. An excerpt:

"54% of men think about sex everyday or several times a day, 43% a few times per month or a few times per week, and 4% less than once a month"

And that's just sex. I couldn't even find a study there that asked how often men look at attractive women's bodyparts. It must be such an incredibly high number that it's off the charts.

Getting back closer to the topic:  Yes I can see that people are picking out the handful of times that Vin and Elend show affection towards each other, like the honeymoon...2 years after they met.  I would hope these scenes exist somewhere within the 2,000+ pages of text (paperback) otherwise there would be little evidence of any type of physical attraction/relationship.  It's the fact that everyone looks to the same handful of scenes that demonstrates the point that there wasn't much there.

Ultimately it comes down to whether you noticed the lack of sexuality in the series and whether you thought it could use a bit more to add to the depth of the characters.  Even outside of Vin and Elend, the other characters you mentioned never talked about the opposite sex or 'had thoughts' beyond "He/She is beautiful, has shiny hair, is smart, I love him/her."  It's definitely a very high-minded view of attraction and love, so if that's what Sanderson was trying to accomplish on purpose, I'll give him that.   It just wasn't the most realistic or interesting angle he could have chosen.  A very minor complaint.
« Last Edit: January 27, 2009, 08:02:03 PM by ryanjm »

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Re: Sex and sexuality in the Mistborn series...missing?
« Reply #44 on: January 27, 2009, 08:52:17 PM »
Not to belabor the point, but I agree with you that it's not the same for every guy.  As a male, who definitely discusses this with his male friends/relatives, it only applies to the vast majority of us and anyone I've ever spoken to about it in person.  Just for future reference, you refuted what I said by saying "Well first of all, I'm not a guy and I don't really talk to other guys about it, so I really don't know what I'm talking about, BUT here's what I think anyway."  This is not the best way to begin an argument.


this sounds pretty rude, and insulting.  she was just stating that she doesn't feel her guy-friends are so extreme in their thoughts about wanting sex from every attractive woman they look at. there's really no need to sound so condescending.

That said, your statistics do bring up an interesting point.  They show there is a lot of gray area.  a lot of room for interpretation.  do i think about sex several times a month (this doesn't even fit in the 43% mentioned in the study)? sure.  with my wife.  do I think about it with other women? no.  that's just a fact, and i doubt that i'm a HUGE minority among my married kind.

I think the key issue is that people are combining attraction and sex.  yes, one leads to the other (well...not all the time but thats a whole different issue), but Joe Schmoe saying, "huh, that girl is attractive" doesnt always mean "geeze i wanna have sex with her!!!"

Brandon is pretty mild on the attraction issue, but like Ookla said, it IS there.  And who's to say in THAT society and THAT culture it is absolutely normal? last i checked none of us are from there... (i could have used a tad more though, but only a tad).
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