Author Topic: 1 - 19 - 09 - jwdenzel - The Gates of Heaven: Prologue - Ch. 1  (Read 7480 times)

maxonennis

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Re: 1 - 19 - 09 - jwdenzel - The Gates of Heaven: Prologue - Ch. 1
« Reply #15 on: January 20, 2009, 05:18:17 PM »
One more thing and then I'll leave you alone, your font left me squinting for a few hours. It really hurt my eyes, and I have good eyes,  :o  see.

Hmm. I just used courier new. Double spaced. 10 pt.

Did anybody else have trouble?  It works well for me, but I can export differenly next time.

I think it is the 10 point, I usually read in 12 point (it makes the letter bolder and not as faint).
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Reaves

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Re: 1 - 19 - 09 - jwdenzel - The Gates of Heaven: Prologue - Ch. 1
« Reply #16 on: January 22, 2009, 01:20:58 AM »
It would throw one heck of a shadow!  From really far off, with the curvature of the earth, they wouldn't know that it wasn't floating until they got within say... depending on how high up it was... 60-80 miles?  Avg 10 mph, they would still be out 6-8 days or so. 

I stand corrected. Gogo science man!!  :D
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Necroben

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Re: 1 - 19 - 09 - jwdenzel - The Gates of Heaven: Prologue - Ch. 1
« Reply #17 on: January 22, 2009, 02:00:25 AM »
Sorry, I'm a big Geek! ;D
I don't suffer from insanity...  I enjoy every minuet of it!

It's ok to be strange, as long as it's on paper. :)

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Re: 1 - 19 - 09 - jwdenzel - The Gates of Heaven: Prologue - Ch. 1
« Reply #18 on: January 22, 2009, 04:53:17 PM »
[It would throw one heck of a shadow!  From really far off, with the curvature of the earth, they wouldn't know that it wasn't floating until they got within say... depending on how high up it was... 60-80 miles?  Avg 10 mph, they would still be out 6-8 days or so.

I assume you meant 6-8 hours, not 6-8 days, geeky science man.
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little wilson

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Re: 1 - 19 - 09 - jwdenzel - The Gates of Heaven: Prologue - Ch. 1
« Reply #19 on: January 22, 2009, 05:28:14 PM »
I'm thinking he actually meant an average of 10 miles per day, instead of hour.....
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jwdenzel

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Re: 1 - 19 - 09 - jwdenzel - The Gates of Heaven: Prologue - Ch. 1
« Reply #20 on: January 22, 2009, 05:37:11 PM »
I think I need to seriously research how fast a fleet of ships can sail in a given period of time!!

For now though, just go with it folks. ;-)

J
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Re: 1 - 19 - 09 - jwdenzel - The Gates of Heaven: Prologue - Ch. 1
« Reply #21 on: January 22, 2009, 07:08:43 PM »
I'm thinking he actually meant an average of 10 miles per day, instead of hour.....

Yes!  That was it.  Though I'm not sure exactly how that transfers into nautical miles either. 

I think I need to seriously research how fast a fleet of ships can sail in a given period of time!!

This is one of the reasons all my stories take place on the mainland, somewhere.
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jwdenzel

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Re: 1 - 19 - 09 - jwdenzel - The Gates of Heaven: Prologue - Ch. 1
« Reply #22 on: January 22, 2009, 09:00:49 PM »
If Shkat is a replacement for a certain four letter English word that starts with the same sound, then I'd prefer to have a spade called a spade...

Does anybody else have any thoughts regarding this?  Yes, "shkat" was intended to be a replacement for sh**, and is Aric's way of using it.  I guess I could just call it what it is, but generally in sci-fi/fantasy, I see a lot of authors use replacements for cuss words.

It works really well in Battlestar Galactica, anyway!  Then again, using the work "frak" is just a really creative way to get around using swear words on TV.

I intend to use more cuss words in later chapters because the characters would likely use them.  But I don't want to pull the reader too far out of the world to do it.

What do you think?
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maxonennis

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Re: 1 - 19 - 09 - jwdenzel - The Gates of Heaven: Prologue - Ch. 1
« Reply #23 on: January 22, 2009, 11:00:06 PM »
If Shkat is a replacement for a certain four letter English word that starts with the same sound, then I'd prefer to have a spade called a spade...

Does anybody else have any thoughts regarding this?  Yes, "shkat" was intended to be a replacement for sh**, and is Aric's way of using it.  I guess I could just call it what it is, but generally in sci-fi/fantasy, I see a lot of authors use replacements for cuss words.

It works really well in Battlestar Galactica, anyway!  Then again, using the work "frak" is just a really creative way to get around using swear words on TV.

I intend to use more cuss words in later chapters because the characters would likely use them.  But I don't want to pull the reader too far out of the world to do it.

What do you think?

What really threw me off was that you used a one-for-one replacement in a modern phrase. If it hadn't been a common phrase used in "our world", then the replacement wouldn't have bothered me.
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jwdenzel

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Re: 1 - 19 - 09 - jwdenzel - The Gates of Heaven: Prologue - Ch. 1
« Reply #24 on: January 22, 2009, 11:04:13 PM »
Hmmm.  I see.  You mean because I used the term "sh**-eating grin" and put "shkat" in there, it didn't work.   

Would it have bothered you (or anybody else) if Aric was walking along, stubbed his toe and yelled "Ah, shkat! That hurt!"

?
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jjb

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Re: 1 - 19 - 09 - jwdenzel - The Gates of Heaven: Prologue - Ch. 1
« Reply #25 on: January 22, 2009, 11:35:44 PM »
If the words are that close, then readers will probably be put off by it. (Either because they are offended by the real-world word or because they would prefer you to just use the real word.)

If you were to do phrases, like WoT's "blood and bloody ashes", which are not obvious spin-offs of real-world phrases then the swearing will flow much more naturally.

maxonennis

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Re: 1 - 19 - 09 - jwdenzel - The Gates of Heaven: Prologue - Ch. 1
« Reply #26 on: January 23, 2009, 12:24:45 AM »
This is probably the biggest reason I didn't use cursing in my latest manuscript, because it didn't feel right. There are numerous essays about cursing in fantasy, and to sum them up: What the author is trying to do is translate a different language into english (or whatever language you are using), and so there by if something is a direct one-for-one translation, why use the english translation instead?

Now, I'm not saying that you should do this, but I think culturally relevant and derived curses are more effective if you don't want to uses real ones as jjb has said.
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Frog

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Re: 1 - 19 - 09 - jwdenzel - The Gates of Heaven: Prologue - Ch. 1
« Reply #27 on: January 23, 2009, 01:24:38 AM »
Regarding adding some conflict in chapter 1.  @ Frog... you made an excellent point. I'm such a stickler for adding conflict in my reviews of other people's work that it's nice to see my medicine fed back to me. ;-)    One of the ideas I had this afternoon as I thought about your feedback was:   what if that meeting Aric has with the other captains doesn't go well? Instead of it just being a monthly "Ra, Ra, Go Team!" meeting, it actually shows deep cracks and resentment toward him and this quest?  I mean, they've been at sea for NINE months and people are wondering if these damn islands even exist.   Do you think that might add some tension?  It certainly would make life harder for Aric, and I am ALL about making his life rough.  (Poor guy. Just wait until ch 8)   Then, perhaps, right on cue,  they find land, and Aric's point of trusting the King seems almost divine.   Thoughts?

Sorry it took me so long to get back to you on this, but yes. That would be some conflict that would make a lot of since to me if you found a way to bring it out more. Go for it!
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Re: 1 - 19 - 09 - jwdenzel - The Gates of Heaven: Prologue - Ch. 1
« Reply #28 on: January 26, 2009, 05:03:54 PM »
The important stuff has already been said, so I'll just add a few things here and there, jumping wildly back and forth through the text as they occur to me:

The floating mountain was horribly obvious, and I actually expected the dialogue to reveal that it wasn't floating after all.

The speech felt like an unnecessary infodump, and raised the question in what formation exactly this fleet was travelling for 140 captains to be able to assemble on the flag ship. They can't very well park next to each other and jump from ship to ship, so they'd have to come by boat, which should take quite some time.

The prologue made me wonder as to the significance of the mage. It felt a bit like two seperate stories arbitrarily combined (albeit both well written). But I don't particularly like first person anyway... ;)

You left the armour bits in brackets, I can at least supply the name of the "leg armour", those are greaves. You'd probably also have a gambeson under the armour, to protect against blunt trauma.

I also found another typo: "His smile held a wide smile."


Anyways, at the moment I have absolutely no idea where this story is going but I'd like to find out, so you've definitely done a lot more right than you've done wrong. ;D

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Re: 1 - 19 - 09 - jwdenzel - The Gates of Heaven: Prologue - Ch. 1
« Reply #29 on: January 26, 2009, 05:29:28 PM »
Okay, my first review on the site...I should point out a couple things...One, I comment on every single thought that comes into my head...primarily because I want to give the writer as much feedback as possible so they can choose what they want (if anything) to use...so PLEASE don't feel discouraged about the number of comments...I just want to make sure I don't cheat you...you worked hard to write it, so I owe it to you to work hard to review it...Two, I have not read any of the comments on this post...I wanted to just review it without being guided by other reviews...after this one, I will try to keep up with the discussion thread... but you get to be my first, Jason...sorry :)

On to the feedback:

PROLOGUE

1.  In the Prologue, you have the character refer to his/her experience as "child-like"...for me, this type of description requires an outside perspective the character is not capable of...

2.  A bit later, you use the sentence, "I skip along the treetops, dancing from here to there..." - Honestly, I don't know that you really want the reader seeing your character as so child-like...I would re-think this characterization...this is the character the reader is receiving ALL of their information/story from...I think it is okay for the character/narrator to remember a connection to his child-hood, and it is endearing for a character to be child-like at times (like Zedd in Goodkind's books), but if we are not given enough of an opportunity to get to know the character's maturity and wisdom at-length, then a powerful child-like trait will become the identifying and overriding feature of character.

3.  The perspective of your Prologue is not true first person...I believe it is second person (because you address the reader as a member of the conversation)...quick notes about second person...it is VERY risky...readers want to be voyeuristic...they don't want to be part of the story, they want to watch it...I would encourage you to consider how the Prologue would be different if you wrote it in true first person...if the narrator/character had NO knowledge of the reader....???

4.  This item is just an observation - not really a criticism...If you are targeting a fantasy/sci-fi audience, the book will be approached by a specific audience with specific expectations...and the Prologue is the first part they will read...to this point, the feel of the Prologue isn't making me think of your target genre...using terms like "hyperbole" (literary term in a literary work is hard to do) seem like they don't fit...also, the term "gas giant" seems to miss the feel...often, fantasy is associated with Medieval level tech/knowledge...did they know stars were gas giants at the time?)

5.  At one point, you use the description "countless, countless..." - double words that do not add to a quantitative description should be avoided (for example, "very, very..." communicates a higher level of measurement than "very..." but "countless, countless..." does not)

6.  A note about the end of the Prologue...it makes me expect to read the first chapter in first person, as if I AM Aric...then when we switch to third-person limited, I feel like I'm reading the wrong thing...

CHAPTER 1

1.  At one point, you wrote "The green of his eyes shined in the dark; tiny sources of light on their own." the last part, tiny sources of light on their own, is not needed...you do a good job of showing us with "the green of his eyes shined in the dark..."

2.  After that, you wrote: "There was a knock at the door. Good, he thought. He could blame his
interrupted practice on the intruder rather than on his own inability to
properly concentrate."  ----- What would this look like if you used the italics method to re-write and internalize this part...it is a great opportunity to help us get to know Aric...

3.  A general note...a few times you use phrases like "this took a couple of minutes" or "Minutes later..."...instead of telling the reader about the passage of time, experiment with different ways to give them a sense of the passage of time...sometimes this can be done by mentioning something like a candle in the cabin, then noting it is burned half-way when he is done dressing...sometimes it can be done by the way the story is structured (pace of the writing/reading...a break in chapters...etc.)...a writing professor once told me you don't have to include everything in the story...just make sure the reader gets the right "sense of it"...if that is conveyed, then you've done your job.

4.  I feel like the entire dressing "scene" can be reduced to a paragraph...perhaps more to discuss the ceremonial sword issue...but that's about it. Covering each step in so much depth slows the pace of the chapter - something you don't want to do too much of early on in the novel when you're trying to draw the reader in...

5.  I have to mention this because it is exactly what I do in my writing! you write:  "One hundred and forty ships, and he, the King's personal Ambassador, would carry His Lordship's message and vision to the natives of the Islands." -------------  Just use either message or vision, but not both...the same point is conveyed to the reader, but the statement is more powerful and clean.

6.  Excellent sentence!!!..."Aric knew he stood a striking figure in this armor." ---- Maybe even make it "his armor." The sentence is a powerful way to convey Aric's arrogance to the reader (if that is what you're going for) without telling the reader he is arrogant.

7.  Okay...at some point in this chapter, I think you changed Aric's character on me...maybe a bit more of what is later in the chapter should be covered earlier??? not sure...but the sense I got in the first half of Aric (perfectionist navy man, military minded, and arrogant) is much different than the sense in the second half of Aric (out of place civilian in a naval situation, strong desires related to showing his worth as opposed to already feeling worthy, etc.).

8.  When Thomes spoke up, you said Aric thought it was bold. I would say you need to do a bit more to show the atmosphere is tense or one of obedience so that I "feel" that Thomes is being bold as opposed to him telling me...then, you can skip telling me it is bold and have Aric's inner admiration of the man contrast the reader's sense of apprehension that this man did that (the reader would expect repercussions but get admiration...)

9.  The section that begins, "Suddenly, there was a deep..." and goes until the break has an excellent pace! read this section and compare it to the rest of the chapter...the whole thing doesn't have to be the same pace, but it is beneficial to note the difference and think of why it feels different...

10.  After the break, you tell us what happened to the boy...this was not a question I was asking and it actually made me stop and go, "wait...what boy?"...if it doesn't add to the story (does the boy matter?), cut it.

11.  At one point, you tell us about Berart and Pellis' relationship (they are closer than they appear...?)...I would suggest you let us figure this out for ourselves as we observe the characters interacting throughout the novel rather than tell us...if they will not interact enough for us to figure it out, do we really need to know, anyway?

OVERALL IMPRESSION

I'm in...I want to know about the island, I want to see how Aric's character interacts with a crew that seems doomed to take a position contrary to his goals, and I want to see Aric exploring the island...

I don't really feel like I know Aric enough, yet...there is some conflicting character traits in the chapter (maybe)...this could simply be because it is one chapter in...but it feels like you started writing with one character in mind and that character evolved into a different character by the end of the chapter....which is something I accidentally do as well...the challenge is deciding which one you want Aric to be and then re-writing the chapter to show THAT character consistently throughout.

Good job!!! (Sorry about the length of the review...)
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