Author Topic: 1 - 19 - 09 - jwdenzel - The Gates of Heaven: Prologue - Ch. 1  (Read 5908 times)

jwdenzel

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Thank you all very much for your feedback, big or small. 

-J
These are not my stories. I just write them.

Reaves

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Re: 1 - 19 - 09 - jwdenzel - The Gates of Heaven: Prologue - Ch. 1
« Reply #1 on: January 19, 2009, 06:50:01 PM »
Alright. I absolutely love it when someone uses first person present, can I just say that? It wouldn't work for an entire book but it is just perfect for what you did.
That said: the first page of the prologue didn't work quite so well for me. Possibly because it is very passive; thus far, the speaker is dreaming about flying - something we've probably all done. Possibly because as you were writing it you were still getting into the flow of things and your style isn't quite as evident. However, after the first page it really picked up and drew me in.
Amazing final line for the prologue, btw.

Good worldbuilding for when Aric is in his cabin - you don't explain to us what sages are. You don't really tell us what the meditation is supposed to accomplish. But Aric knows.
And - yay! He is impaled with a glowing red gem!! yes!!

One has to wonder how 150 ships could sail on an endless ocean for nine months. How do they get enough water? What about food and supplies? You don't need to explain everything to us in this chapter, or even in the next one. Just so long as you know the answer and get the info to us eventually.

Once Aric starts giving his speech about supply levels and changing their course by fourteen degrees, I had to wonder why you started the story here. It seems like the sort of thing for captains' or navigators' meeting, not a speech to the crew. And I started to lose interest.

Cool. Is the King also God? Or is it simply divine right to the extreme? I'm interested.

At first I was very confused about the mountain. How could it be seen if it is a week away? Once I figured out it was floating in the sky, I had to wonder: how do they know it is a week away?

And lastly.
I want to see you published.
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RJF: "AHA! You fell victim to one of the classic blunders! The most famous is never get involved in a land war in Cairhien, but only slightly less well-known is this: never go in against a warder when he is only the distraction! Get him Rand! Buzzzzzzz!

Necroben

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Re: 1 - 19 - 09 - jwdenzel - The Gates of Heaven: Prologue - Ch. 1
« Reply #2 on: January 19, 2009, 10:13:20 PM »
Ok, I don’t mean to be nit-picky and I know it’s only a working title, but I think you should know that Curt Benjamin wrote a book of the same title.

I agree with Reaves about the first page being too passive.  Though the philosophizing didn’t really help too much either, for me.

I really didn’t get into the story until page four.  For me that was the point of suspension of reality.

That last line is beautifully done, bravo!

Minor point:  Armor is not a good idea anywhere around deep water.

Red gem, Red Gem!  Lol!

On page 8:  I don’t think you need to say how many ships there are three times.  Once is probably enough, unless some have been lost in the journey.

I again have to agree with Reaves about the speech.  If he’s talking to the Captains of the other ships, I would assume that they were chosen for their experience, and that they would already know about the course change.  They already know that the world is not flat so their level of technology should be high enough for them to have sextants and the like to sail by stars and have exact coordinates.

Quote
“…mostly lost in the atmospheric haze.”
This really makes me think that Aric, at least, is not only well schooled, but that the knowledge of these schools far exceeds the use of wood for ocean going ships.

General thoughts on the story:  I really like it.  God-King, floating Islands, and the air of magic are very intriguing.  The line “Perfection is everything” gives a subtle hint into the character of Aric that’s great.

What kept throwing me off from the story was that the MC seemed to know more than I thought he should about the world itself.  Unless their God has given them this knowledge, it doesn’t seem right.  That the world wasn’t flat wasn’t common knowledge until about 500-600 years ago for us.

But I’m a little too nit-picky at times.  The story’s great, and the characters are interesting, great work.  I look forward to reading more.
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Frog

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Re: 1 - 19 - 09 - jwdenzel - The Gates of Heaven: Prologue - Ch. 1
« Reply #3 on: January 19, 2009, 11:11:48 PM »
Thoughts while Reading:
"What does this all mean? Why does it matter to us?" Just what I was thinking...great descriptions though.

Not too found of the prologue in general. It really doesn't tell me all that much and seems overly long and passive.

That is exactly what happens to me when I try to meditate. :)

'A little waiting would only heighten the suspense.' What suspense? This seems a very leisurely paced scene. I would trim it down. Some of this stuff could be very important (He's a crystalheart! :)) but really it's just a whole page about him getting dressed.

Seems a weird speech for him to be making. They are in the middle of their voyage, wouldn't they have already had this discussion?

Some more good characters, but you're telling me too much about them and introducing too many at once. Leave the less important characters in the background and emphasize the important ones.  Don't tell what you show and visa versa, especially in the same scene.
Like this line from before:  'He was a man of His Lordship's Navy at all times it seemed.' I already got that he is formal from his actions, so I don't need you to tell me.


"That mountain is floating in the sky." Wow, took him awhile to figure that out, huh?

Overall Impression:
Good writing, good world and good descriptions but it was harder for me to into because you are giving us far too much (characters and setting discription) without a lot of conflict or action. Everything is going exactly according to plan until finally at the very end when we got a floating island. I would try to cut some of the fluff and telling details and get to real conflict and use that as your hook. Maybe even start with him wondering where that freaky floating island came from and feeling conflicted because that his God-King did not prepare him for it. So to sum up, it is a lot of really good stuff, just far too much of it.

Good work and good luck :)
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jwdenzel

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Re: 1 - 19 - 09 - jwdenzel - The Gates of Heaven: Prologue - Ch. 1
« Reply #4 on: January 19, 2009, 11:39:07 PM »
Wow, thank you guys for the excellent feedback.  I'll take it all into consideration on my next revision.  There's some excellent advice and I intend to take a lot of it!

I'm glad you all appear to be intrigued by the King and the gem in Aric's chest.  Clearly those things play a huge role in the novel and you'll learn more as time goes on.

RE: the floating island ahead.  I admit that I never sat down and did the math to figure out height, distance, and time it would take to get there.   :-[  The image I wanted to conjure is that they see this mountain peak WAY up in the sky, really far away.  At first they think it's a mountain rising from the water.  But upon closer examination, they see it has no base. It's just a floating peak.    Any thoughts on how this might manifest in "real life"? ie, How would it look to approach something like that from really far off?

Thanks again
J
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Reaves

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Re: 1 - 19 - 09 - jwdenzel - The Gates of Heaven: Prologue - Ch. 1
« Reply #5 on: January 20, 2009, 01:38:25 AM »
quick thought: just mention that the water is really misty today, or there is a low fog.

Quote from: VegasDev
RJF: "AHA! You fell victim to one of the classic blunders! The most famous is never get involved in a land war in Cairhien, but only slightly less well-known is this: never go in against a warder when he is only the distraction! Get him Rand! Buzzzzzzz!

jwdenzel

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Re: 1 - 19 - 09 - jwdenzel - The Gates of Heaven: Prologue - Ch. 1
« Reply #6 on: January 20, 2009, 02:47:38 AM »
quick thought: just mention that the water is really misty today, or there is a low fog.

That might just work.  And it ties into something I have coming in chapter 3. 


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Necroben

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Re: 1 - 19 - 09 - jwdenzel - The Gates of Heaven: Prologue - Ch. 1
« Reply #7 on: January 20, 2009, 03:13:49 AM »
Any thoughts on how this might manifest in "real life"? ie, How would it look to approach something like that from really far off?

Thanks again
J

It would throw one heck of a shadow!  From really far off, with the curvature of the earth, they wouldn't know that it wasn't floating until they got within say... depending on how high up it was... 60-80 miles?  Avg 10 mph, they would still be out 6-8 days or so.  Having that much landmass out there on it's own would probably generate it's own weather as well.  Wreathed in clouds and such.  But underneath, it might be in perpetual gloom, and that would effect water currents and sea life.  Might have constant mist where warm water meets the cold, shadowed water.  Well, just a few thoughts.  Hope it helps. ;D
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maxonennis

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Re: 1 - 19 - 09 - jwdenzel - The Gates of Heaven: Prologue - Ch. 1
« Reply #8 on: January 20, 2009, 04:19:45 AM »
A lot of comments on the prologue being too passive, it worked for me because of your use of languish. It could uses some toning down in some sense, maybe having more action in the first page (just having the narrator do something is all), but over all I really liked it.

I would've liked to have seen Aric's (is it pronounced Erik?) audience with the King revealed through uses of external dialog rather than some much internal looking back.

I don't know how many people on the ship had armor, but if it were any significant number, then it would be a bad idea because of salt water exposure.

There is a strong sense of negative uses of tension (the narrator with holding information from the reader). I find that a little irritating (that has nothing to do with your writing but dangle a carrot in front of a horse while always keeping it out of reach will get it mad too).

If Shkat is a replacement for a certain four letter English word that starts with the same sound, then I'd prefer to have a spade called a spade...

The fact that the meeting with the ship's captains didn't last more than a page and a half made me very glad...for a moment I thought you were going to hit me hard with some blatant info dumping :P
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Pipe

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Re: 1 - 19 - 09 - jwdenzel - The Gates of Heaven: Prologue - Ch. 1
« Reply #9 on: January 20, 2009, 07:30:43 AM »
Oh good, I can actually start a story from the beginning :P

What Worked For Me:
* You've got really good, clean prose. You obviously have a good handle of the language and don't have issues with run-on sentences.
* You also have a gift for punchy last lines - the last line of the prologue and of chapter 1 were very good.
* You do a good job sneaking in Aric's thoughts. I particularly liked his comment about how he could "blame his
interrupted practice on the intruder" as well as when he noted Thomes reaction to finding land.
* I like that you've sketched out a dynamic between characters other than the main character (i.e. Pellis and Berart).
* While you did introduce a lot of characters, I did think you did a good job as to describing each just enough so I had a vague mental picture even after one chapter. (One exception was that both Derrick and Laudney share the "straight-laced navy man") mental image at the moment.

Some Points:

* Might want to try semicolons for the connected sentences in the first part of the prologue - you use them later on but the first part might benefit from that as well.
* Use of the "Oh!" exclamation twice in close succession in the prologue made me blink a bit.
* Granted medieval astronomy can be advanced - I'm assuming this is a medieval-style fantasy so if I'm wrong forgive me - but while they might know of planets, would even an archmage know of gas giants?
* The prologue was well written, but while it started out on a personal level which drew me in, the farther outward the narrator flew, the wider his view became, the more detached I too became as a reader. By the time it reached the comet, it began to feel to me like too much exposition.
* "Even with daily practice, it was hard to focus on "the moment" and not get distracted by outside happenings or thinking of other  items of business." - this statement struck me as a bit vague. "happenings" "items of business" etc.
* "There was only one soft lamp lit, but he was already adjusted to the darkness of the cabin." - if he had his eyes closed for a  substantial amount of time, he'd be adjusted to darkness, but  not "of the cabin" I think.
* "He would bring them His glory." - a bit of an ambiguous pronoun there, easily clarified by context but still something that might put a speed bump for the reader.
* "Laudney spoke long and privately with the man" - I was a bit confused here if "the man" was the sailor in the crows nest or Derrick.
* "Minutes later, Aric stood at the ship's bow next to Admiral Laudney and lifted a spyglass to hie eye. Berart and Pellis   stood with them, waiting." -> "Finally, Laudney joined Aric at the bow, and handed him a spyglass." I think there might be a tense inconsistency here? (aside from the hie typo :) )

---

Overall, very enjoyable J ^_^
« Last Edit: January 20, 2009, 07:32:27 AM by Pipe »

jwdenzel

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Re: 1 - 19 - 09 - jwdenzel - The Gates of Heaven: Prologue - Ch. 1
« Reply #10 on: January 20, 2009, 08:05:25 AM »
Man, this writing group thing rocks.  All of th feedback so far has been great.  Thank you.  And thank you for your kind words as well. :)

Several of the items that have been mentioned are things that I address much more directly in the next few chapters. I'll comment on them once I've shared those with you down the road.   :)

@ maxonennis:  In my head I pronounce Aric's name as "AR-ic", which sounds similar to how the word "arc" sounds.  Although "Erik" or "Eric" is another perfectly suitable version, I suppose. 

Regarding adding some conflict in chapter 1.  @ Frog... you made an excellent point. I'm such a stickler for adding conflict in my reviews of other people's work that it's nice to see my medicine fed back to me. ;-)    One of the ideas I had this afternoon as I thought about your feedback was:   what if that meeting Aric has with the other captains doesn't go well? Instead of it just being a monthly "Ra, Ra, Go Team!" meeting, it actually shows deep cracks and resentment toward him and this quest?  I mean, they've been at sea for NINE months and people are wondering if these damn islands even exist.   Do you think that might add some tension?  It certainly would make life harder for Aric, and I am ALL about making his life rough.  (Poor guy. Just wait until ch 8)   Then, perhaps, right on cue,  they find land, and Aric's point of trusting the King seems almost divine.   Thoughts?

@ Pipe.... *bows to you*  You found a typo.  I swear I spell checked that thing ten times and had a second person look at it too.  Some things just slip past I guess. :)
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little wilson

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Re: 1 - 19 - 09 - jwdenzel - The Gates of Heaven: Prologue - Ch. 1
« Reply #11 on: January 20, 2009, 09:01:19 AM »
Funny you should ask about the crews tension for added conflict, because that was pretty much exactly what I was thinking while reading it. "There's going to be a mutiny.".....Now, obviously it doesn't have to be a mutiny, but I think a bit of tension on that long of a travel, especially when the destination is so vague, would be expected. Even if they have faith in the God-King.

Now for my opinions on it. I really liked it. I wasn't so sure about it for the first couple of pages of the prologue. Mostly because of the passiveness. I liked the start, with the talk of the flying, because I love flying in my dreams. It's awesome. But then I started to lose interest, up until the narrator looked back at the whole universe and started pointing out the galaxies that mattered. I think I became interested in it at that point because the style really started to show. From there until the end, it was good. And I loved that last line.

And I really don't have anything to say about Chapter 1. It was good. And I didn't even really notice problems with the speech until I read the feedback already given. Now I can see that, and I agree with the others that that should be fixed a bit, with this being the ninth meeting and all.

And I may be dense or something, but for some reason, it didn't occur to me that the mountain was floating until Laudney said it was...And then I'm like "Oh! That's cool!"....And I feel really lame for not figuring it out earlier, but I was thinking the rest of the mountain was invisible or something. The base was invisible and they would run ashore on invisible land at some point....Which I thought would be cool, but a floating mountain is pretty sweet too.

Yeah, so. I really liked it so far. I want to read more. Good job!
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maxonennis

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Re: 1 - 19 - 09 - jwdenzel - The Gates of Heaven: Prologue - Ch. 1
« Reply #12 on: January 20, 2009, 04:09:55 PM »
One more thing and then I'll leave you alone, your font left me squinting for a few hours. It really hurt my eyes, and I have good eyes,  :o  see.
"Don't argue with ignorance. And when you argue with me, that's all you get!" Mike

Maxonennis’ soliloquy on Frog relations: “How can I bake the hall in the candle of her brain?”

jwdenzel

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Re: 1 - 19 - 09 - jwdenzel - The Gates of Heaven: Prologue - Ch. 1
« Reply #13 on: January 20, 2009, 04:48:02 PM »
One more thing and then I'll leave you alone, your font left me squinting for a few hours. It really hurt my eyes, and I have good eyes,  :o  see.

Hmm. I just used courier new. Double spaced. 10 pt.

Did anybody else have trouble?  It works well for me, but I can export differenly next time.
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Re: 1 - 19 - 09 - jwdenzel - The Gates of Heaven: Prologue - Ch. 1
« Reply #14 on: January 20, 2009, 05:09:06 PM »
Well a lot of people have already stated many of the major points to consider for revision or elaboration  like passive sentences and what have you so I'll keep this brief.
Military's rely on formality and discipline so sloppy dress would be inexcusable regardless of the  amount of time at sea. In fact British colonials would intentionally dress up to go to dinner (even if they were eating by themselves) precisely to keep up morale.
On that note Why would Aric even think that he wouldn't want "even the admiral" to see him dressed casually rather than especially him? He is supposed to be the leader while they are at sea I assume and you don't want your superior (even a temporary one) or your underlings to see you at anything less than your best.
Beyond that little sticking point this is shaping up quite well.
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