Author Topic: Public School Writing Teachers  (Read 13961 times)

readerMom

  • Level 8
  • *
  • Posts: 275
  • Fell Points: 0
    • View Profile
    • Books, mostly
Re: Public School Writing Teachers
« Reply #75 on: January 16, 2009, 01:10:18 AM »
I have actually heard, from many people, that school in general stress college so much, kids who want vocational ed are discouraged.  Plumbers, mechanics, carpenters etc. are losing apprentices because schools are pushing one ciriculum, no matter what the students' abilities are. Its a one-size fits all education that really suits no one.

GorgonlaVacaTremendo

  • Level 29
  • *
  • Posts: 1641
  • Fell Points: 1
  • If we can teach a monkey to use a Rubic's Cube...
    • View Profile
    • Kinase Moves the Audio
Re: Public School Writing Teachers
« Reply #76 on: January 16, 2009, 03:14:04 AM »
I think, because by the very nature of a public education system, we have to, in large part, have a one-size-fits all education, I'd rather see everybody become well-rounded, with an emphasis on the subjects that have strong ties to specific parts of brain development, such as puzzle solving.  Sciences, specifically math theory, are the best way to stimulate this.  The way we currently educate our children makes them, in theory, a jack of all trades and a master of none.  I prefer this to handpicking people to train for specific jobs.  I want children to have the time to develop while not being inherently trained for a job in their public education years.  They can then choose what path THEY want to go down, once they've had a bit of exposure to everything and they've had the subject exposure to organize their brain into logical machines capable of handling the academic world and capable of solving problems in their everyday lives.  There's no point in rushing kids into a decision (funnily enough, I feel I was rushed into choosing a to go to college for psychology, and while I absolutely love the material, sometimes I wish I had been given more time to decide my path--imagine if I was being trained for it when I was thirteen instead of seventeen).  If we start focusing on what children say they want to do, or what we think children will be best at, at a younger age, what will happen when a large portion of them inevitably decide they don't want to take that route once they hit eighteen or nineteen?  They wont have a general support of knowledge to launch into other fields like they do now.

I would love to see more elective courses offered in schools to give students a little bit more "pre-training" options for a career they believe they would be interested in.  But, again, it all comes down to resources.  How much should taxpayers give in order to help out the small percentage of people who inevitably become fiction writers for a living?  What about stand-up comedians?  I would love to see these types of programs offered, but it is something students will have to learn, to a great degree, on their own.  But, again, perhaps this is what makes these activities so enticing--the fact that they are hobbies, and not work.  This could be why some people do what they do, because they learned to love it instead of being taught to do it.

Of course kids are pushed into college--on average, kids who go to college have a higher standard of living.  There will always be kids who don't want to go to college and decide to do a trade instead, just as there will always be people who decide to go into the military.  The way I see it, if there is a shortage, then we are advancing as a people in the amount of education the average person is getting, which is a good thing.  There will always need to be plumbers and carpenters, and if there is a shortage now, there will be a surge later as kids find out, "hey, I can just go be a plumber without going to college and there's a lot of room to work!"  It's cyclical like that, and I'm honestly not worried about it.
"Sin lies only in hurting other people unnecessarily. All other 'sins' are invented nonsense."
Robert Heinlein

"Nobody made a greater mistake than he who did nothing because he could do only a little."
Edmund Burke

www.kinasemovestheaudio.com for a good time!

Shaggy

  • Level 32
  • *
  • Posts: 1886
  • Fell Points: 0
  • I advise you not to argue. We have chipmunks.
    • View Profile
Re: Public School Writing Teachers
« Reply #77 on: January 16, 2009, 05:14:13 PM »
I think one thing we have to keep in mind is that we sort of generalize 'public schools/education systems' and 'private schools/education systems' when there really is an enormous variety within the two categories…. (Not pointing any fingers; I myself have done this.)
The Shag Dog Has Spoken

SniperCatBeliever

Bringer of Flames, Leader of Destruction, Head Chipmunk.

High Chipolata of C.F.N (Chipmunks For Nuts)

"You sound like a commercial."

{Pie-Lover Poster Boy}

OOP Member.

darxbane

  • Level 17
  • *
  • Posts: 839
  • Fell Points: 0
    • View Profile
Re: Public School Writing Teachers
« Reply #78 on: January 16, 2009, 08:58:50 PM »
If you don't think puzzle solving is stimulated by trades, you've never tried to run a pipe under a sink.  Carpentry requires a lot of math, as does electrical work.  It also requires a hands-on skill that should also be developed as early as possible.  We are not just saying that there is a shortage of these special skills, we are also saying that the skillset is weakening, because exposure to the craft comes too late in life, and they either can't get the mastery, or never realize they have the skill and end up working at Lowes for minimum wage.  The reality is that the current model is not effective.  Psychology is just one small area of the whole picture when looking at the best practices in education.  But, if you want to stick to the Psychology front, I believe your subconscious believes Science and Math should be the focus because you excel at them.  You are also (and I mean no offense by this) looking at life through the rose-colored glasses of youth, where everyone can be successful if they just try hard enough.  Unfortunately, that doesn't happen, especially when the choices given are so limited.  Most of the electricians I work with started out when they were 16 and 17, and they make absurd amounts of money, so there is nothing wrong with choosing that, or any other trade.  You can always go to college part time to improve yourself, if you wish. 
I wanted to write something profound here, but I couldn't think of anything.

readerMom

  • Level 8
  • *
  • Posts: 275
  • Fell Points: 0
    • View Profile
    • Books, mostly
Re: Public School Writing Teachers
« Reply #79 on: January 16, 2009, 09:56:05 PM »
The ideal would be to have teachers and parent who work together to help each child excel, then guide the child as they get older to a suitable emphasis.  I all this talk of the school we have to remember the part the parents play.  In Las Vegas they have a problem getting kids to graduate high school and to college because there are so many parents with good jobs at the casinos.  The parents don't see a need, so why should they get the kids to study?
My children's teachers are universally grateful I show up to parent-teacher conferences, much less that I make my children study and think the teacher's opinion about discipline issues is the most important.  (I just went today)  Most of the deficiencies of the public education system can be remedied by good parents, and the best system in the world can't make up for bad parents.

The Jade Knight

  • Moderator
  • Level 39
  • *****
  • Posts: 2507
  • Fell Points: 1
  • Lord of the Absent-Minded
    • View Profile
    • Don't go here
Re: Public School Writing Teachers
« Reply #80 on: January 17, 2009, 12:22:12 AM »
I find myself agreeing with Darxbane and ReaderMom.  I must say, however, that I totally disagree with any assertion that we should teach less history.  History is a critical area of study, and if more people had studied it intelligently, our population would not be remotely so moronic.

That said, I think the way History is being taught today in primary/secondary schooling is totally wrong, and doesn't teach the important things that History has to teach us.  We also organize it stupidly.

Quote
with an emphasis on the subjects that have strong ties to specific parts of brain development, such as puzzle solving.  Sciences, specifically math theory, are the best way to stimulate this.

Not at all.  The liberal arts are one of the best ways of stimulating this, by encouraging students to think outside the box.  In Gifted programs around the country, word games are one of the ways problem solving is encouraged among students.

Quote
How much should taxpayers give in order to help out the small percentage of people who inevitably become fiction writers for a living?  What about stand-up comedians?

How much should taxpayers pay for the small percentage of people who inevitably become mathematicians for a living?  Or professional sports players?  Or zoologists?  It really seems to me, Gorgon, that what you're advocating is terribly hypocritical.

Quote
There will always need to be plumbers and carpenters, and if there is a shortage now, there will be a surge later as kids find out, "hey, I can just go be a plumber without going to college and there's a lot of room to work!"

Ignoring self-reliance.  I, for one, was never taught by my father how to build or repair things, so if it's not an electronic gadget, I don't have the foggiest for how to do household maintenance work, or to work on improvements.  I regret this.
"Never argue with a fool; they'll bring you down to their level, and then beat you with experience."

little wilson

  • Level 29
  • *
  • Posts: 1634
  • Fell Points: 0
  • Hero of Ages: Preservation
    • View Profile
    • My Myspace
Re: Public School Writing Teachers
« Reply #81 on: January 17, 2009, 02:56:53 AM »
I agree with Jade. History is very important....So's geography, I think. Maybe that's just because I'm a geography nut, but I think it's problem when an 18-year old who lives in Idaho doesn't know where Seattle is....Or even the Puget Sound.

I also agree that there are definite problems with the teaching method of a lot of different subjects. I think most of this stems from NCLB, and I really hope that that Act will be replaced in the near future. It sounded good at first, but it's just been terrible for a lot of different school systems. I'm just glad I was old enough that I didn't see a whole lot of the testing. What I did see was enough to drive me insane, though...Stupid I-SAT's.

Also, when I try to think about how they could better the systems, I have a bit of trouble. Maybe it's just the school district I grew up in, but there's a good system already in place--or it was when I was there. I think basic education should be covered in elem school, and then the junior high/middle schools should have a ton of exploratory courses. They should have the core classes (math, english, history, science), and then electives for students to explore a bunch of different paths where they can find things that interest them. Then, high school goes even more specialized. My district (or my old district, rather, since I graduated almost 4 years ago) had all of this. I may not have taken advantage of it to a large extent, but I know people who did. And now that a new high school is being built, the specialized courses are expanding significantly.

I know not every school district is like mine. And heck, even mine didn't have any creative writing courses.....Wait. I take that back. It did. I just wasn't able to take it, cuz there was only one class, and it was during the same hour as my choir class--which was one class I wouldn't have dropped for the world....Oh well. I took Creative Writing when I went to college, so it's all good.

Anyway. That's my take on the public education system.
"You either die a hero or you live long enough to see yourself become the villain."

Archon

  • Level 27
  • *
  • Posts: 1487
  • Fell Points: 2
  • Master of Newbie Smackdown
    • View Profile
Re: Public School Writing Teachers
« Reply #82 on: January 17, 2009, 07:08:32 PM »
This is actually Gorgon, because I'm a sneaky wench.

Here's the deal.  Those are all great skills, they are great things to learn.  It is a fact, so much so that I wouldn't have to cite it in a paper about brain development, that sciences make you a better problem solver in all aspects of life.  It is not the skill, in itself, that is important.

I don't particularly like math, in fact, that's one of the reasons I went into psychology in the first place.  No math except basic statistics.  These are NOT the subjects I like the most, these are the subjects that are the most important to specific types of brain development.  You're right, trades require puzzle solving, so do most aspects of life.  That's WHY it is important to stimulate the areas of the brain that will be useful in ALL of these situations.  Yeah, creative writing and puzzle games are a great way to stimulate the brain.  They do not stimulate that right area of the brain.  It is not what you learn, but how your build the brain, that makes these classes important, which is why math is more important that, say, creative writing for future authors.  It is not for the kids who become mathematicians, it is because of the changes in the brain we can see from these subjects.

Teaching kids in school to learn a trade wasn't really ever advocated, Chestknight, but encouraging kids to pick up a trade was.  I was NEVER saying, by the way, college education is the right path for everybody (I have almost dropped several times, and did not come to my college right away after high school) or advocate that college-educated people are better in some way.  All I said is it makes sense for kids to be encouraged into this life because it raises their standard of living ON AVERAGE (it's not that a carpenter can't live a great life and be very happy...) and I think it is a good objective to have as much of our population as educated as possible.

I agree with readermom entirely.  Great parents will take the time to encourage their kids' growth and development.  They will also provide the kids with whatever they need to learn hobbies outside of school.

I never said everybody can succeed if they try, you can ask the nice young man I'm with (as I believe it annoys him) on my stances about being locked into poverty.  I'm possibly one of the biggest advocates of the fact that the system holds some individuals down from birth.  Does that mean that we should from a young age not give them the chance to try and make whatever life they wish, rather than training them for a job before they're old enough to really make a choice?

As a final note, my strengths are in the arts.  I excel in music, I always have, and it is my goal to work in the field of music because I love it so deeply that I pour quite literally almost every moment of spare time I have into it.  I usually spend more than forty hours a week in music related jobs in addition to my schooling.  I don't date, a large part because I feel it would interrupt my focus on music.  I often put my schoolwork second to my bands.  I spend all of my spare money on musical instruments.  So, if my subconscious was pushing a subject, it would be music almost certainly.  I happen to do decently in school without effort, but the courses I do the worst in, since youth, are math and science (because of the amount of homework for points in courses like this, which I have never done).  Also, when I was younger I was a good artist and an award-winning photographer, in addition to a decent writer.  I love the arts.  A lot.  I understand the importance of the sciences to substantiate the potential of the brain.

It is not what you learn, it is the final effect, which makes math and science important.  Psychology is not the only way to look at this point, but is a VERY valuable viewpoint a lot of people do not know or understand, and one often alienated rather that embraced.
It is better to be hated for what you are than to be loved for what you are not. -Andre Gide
In the depth of winter, I finally discovered that within me there lay an invincible summer. -Albert Camus

Loud_G

  • Level 11
  • *
  • Posts: 438
  • Fell Points: 0
  • Drawer of Dragons
    • View Profile
    • George the Dragon
Re: Public School Writing Teachers
« Reply #83 on: January 19, 2009, 04:51:25 PM »
I agree with Jade. History is very important....So's geography, I think. Maybe that's just because I'm a geography nut, but I think it's problem when an 18-year old who lives in Idaho doesn't know where Seattle is....Or even the Puget Sound.

*Sigh*

THAT is the problem with the geography taught in Public Schools.....Everyone grows up thinking Geography is only memorizing location (states and capitols, etc.) That is less relevant to geography, and really more relevant to social studies.  Location is just the barest skimming off the top of all that Geography has to offer. And no one knows how much they are missing because it is instantly equated with states and capitols.. (boring)

Yet that just reinforces the fact that Public Schooling has too much focus on memorization....

I studied Geography in College (after I got bored with Engineering) (specifically Geographic Information Science) and it is one of the most fascinating sciences out there. Most people don't even realize it is a science because all they did was memorize names....
Lip service is payed to the wonders of the tectonic plates, but the other parts of how our earth functions are almost completely ignored... :P

But we can't teach useful stuff...no, lets just have them memorize great swaths of data....
George the Dragon   <---- My webcomic. 

WARNING:
Features a very silly dragon. Hilarity MAY ensue.

GorgonlaVacaTremendo

  • Level 29
  • *
  • Posts: 1641
  • Fell Points: 1
  • If we can teach a monkey to use a Rubic's Cube...
    • View Profile
    • Kinase Moves the Audio
Re: Public School Writing Teachers
« Reply #84 on: January 19, 2009, 05:25:23 PM »
Well, the reason people don't realize that, I think, is because it is taught as part of "Earth Sciences" in public schools (to my knowledge).  Honestly, I think Geography should have its own semester long course in school science because you are right, it is an interesting science.
"Sin lies only in hurting other people unnecessarily. All other 'sins' are invented nonsense."
Robert Heinlein

"Nobody made a greater mistake than he who did nothing because he could do only a little."
Edmund Burke

www.kinasemovestheaudio.com for a good time!

little wilson

  • Level 29
  • *
  • Posts: 1634
  • Fell Points: 0
  • Hero of Ages: Preservation
    • View Profile
    • My Myspace
Re: Public School Writing Teachers
« Reply #85 on: January 19, 2009, 06:36:25 PM »
When I was in 9th grade, my science course was Earth Science, but I'm pretty sure that the "History/Social Studies" course was World Geography. I could be wrong about that, but I seem to recall talking about geography in that class. Granted, that was 7 years ago, so my memory could be messed up.

Anyway, I think that's the only actual geography course I've taken in school. I took Geology about 3 years ago in college, and I thought that was fascinating. A lot of people correlate Geology to the study of rocks, which it's not really. That's part of it, but there's so much more. Like natural disasters. Talk about one awesome class (I took it as a class after I studied it in Geology).

It's sad that public schools teach subjects only halfway, making the kids who graduate have these horrible misconceptions of what the studies REALLY entail. Yeah, I was a fan of geography in school, but that was because my memorization skills are insane. Knowing more about it beyond the memorization aspect has simply made me more interested in it....although I will admit that I still like the memorization part the most--but not the state capitols stuff. I go for the whole world--locations, cities, whatever. So much fun.
"You either die a hero or you live long enough to see yourself become the villain."

Shaggy

  • Level 32
  • *
  • Posts: 1886
  • Fell Points: 0
  • I advise you not to argue. We have chipmunks.
    • View Profile
Re: Public School Writing Teachers
« Reply #86 on: January 19, 2009, 09:24:18 PM »
Little wil, the History/Social Studies course IS world geography. I know 'cause I'm taking it.  :D ;D 8)
The Shag Dog Has Spoken

SniperCatBeliever

Bringer of Flames, Leader of Destruction, Head Chipmunk.

High Chipolata of C.F.N (Chipmunks For Nuts)

"You sound like a commercial."

{Pie-Lover Poster Boy}

OOP Member.