Author Topic: Public School Writing Teachers  (Read 13198 times)

The Jade Knight

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Re: Public School Writing Teachers
« Reply #60 on: January 13, 2009, 11:03:22 PM »
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I agree to a point, but what if the problem is how much we are teaching, but how it is being taught?  Math and Science need to be applied in order to be used, yet schools do not focus enough on this fact.  They stick to memorize, repeat, then move on to the next thing.  As for the mortgage crisis, math had little to do with it.  This is an example of what happens when you are made to feel you deserve something no matter the consequence, or when you want something so bad you make yourself believe the risks won't apply to you.  There were almost daily news stories warning people of the risks or ARM, SubPrime and interest only loans, yet they still were taken.  

I totally agree with the discipline thing.  I have several teachers in my family, as well as some friends, and they complain about the lack of discipline all the time.  What's worse, the parents actually castigate the teachers for administering any discipline!  It appears their little darlings are perfect, and the teacher is just singling them out.  Parental responsibility, responsibility in general, is the real problem.  

Amen!  I think that the way things are taught is a huge part of the problem.  I can tell you right now that the current way History is taught in most schools is no good at all.
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The Jade Knight

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Re: Public School Writing Teachers
« Reply #61 on: January 13, 2009, 11:12:19 PM »
Jade, I feel I must correct you on this. Of the two private schools I have attended, both have offered Latin as a course, although one of the schools only offered it in fifth grade. In fact, in the school I currently attend, Latin is a required course for grades 7 and 8 (9-12 is optional).

You need to understand that these are highly unusual exceptions.  Few schools in the US teach Latin any more at all, and almost none require it.

(Update:  Some searching reveals that Latin learning is, however, on the rise.  It used to be abysmally low (when I was in school), but is starting to recover.)
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Shaggy

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Re: Public School Writing Teachers
« Reply #62 on: January 13, 2009, 11:15:59 PM »
When were you in school? Because many of my classmates took Latin at their previous schools, too. And, many visitors who have visited our school/grade are currently taking Latin (or have in the past.)
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The Jade Knight

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Re: Public School Writing Teachers
« Reply #63 on: January 13, 2009, 11:19:20 PM »
I graduated from high school almost 10 years ago.

Where do you live again?  I don't think a single public school in our County offers Latin.
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Re: Public School Writing Teachers
« Reply #64 on: January 13, 2009, 11:20:41 PM »
Weston, Connecticut. But I go to school at Hopkins School in West Haven, Connecticut (like 45 minutes away).

Well most of the above-mentioned people go to private school….
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Re: Public School Writing Teachers
« Reply #65 on: January 13, 2009, 11:38:18 PM »
Ah, private schools are different.  They value a classical education more, methinks.  The increase in Latin learners might actually be directly related to the increase of charter schools in this country, though I couldn't be sure.
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Re: Public School Writing Teachers
« Reply #66 on: January 14, 2009, 05:39:44 PM »
I did the public school thing. There was only one school in the county that offered Latin.

My schools only offered french and spanish....
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Re: Public School Writing Teachers
« Reply #67 on: January 14, 2009, 05:59:58 PM »
My school was the same.  Only french and spanish, which was a little odd considering my city is predominantly Roman Catholic, and they even had Latin Mass when I was a kid.  My school sucked anyway.  The school committee and Mayors went out of their way to smash education whenever possible, and it hasn't changed much.  It still amazes me that 5500 dollars per student is a huge cost but they seem to have no problem spending ten times that much to keep them in Juvenile detention, and sometimes even adult prison, especially when a good quality education would have kept many of those kids out of trouble.  It's embarrassing, really.
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Re: Public School Writing Teachers
« Reply #68 on: January 14, 2009, 10:53:06 PM »
Ummm…what town is this? Not to be weird or anything, but I want to make sure NOT to live there when I'm an adult….

I'm not very up-to-date with the public school news, honestly. And the school I attend is a rather special place, if I do say so myself.  8)
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GorgonlaVacaTremendo

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Re: Public School Writing Teachers
« Reply #69 on: January 15, 2009, 05:00:51 AM »
This is a generally a discussion of public schools.  Private schools are a much different situation because they have more resources, generally a more motivated student population as a whole, and can set their own standards of education.

Gorgon, please send me some links to the studies you are using.  I am always interested in this sort of thing, especially now that I have to young children.  You say that music affects different areas of the brain, yet it is shown that those who learn music and listen to complex musical compositions actually show greater intelligence.  It is also well known that you remember things much more easily if you sing them, make them rhyme, or create Mnemonics (which I dare say is artistic, in a way).  We still know so little about the brain, it could be possible that the pathways enhanced by music and art help the brain better access the memory needed to more effectively use the logical centers of the brain.

I don't have any specific sources seeing how much, if not all, of what I've been saying is just a general overview of some common knowledge within the field of psychology.  I'll do a little research and pull up some specific studies or papers when I have a little more time in order to get to you who found what and when.  It's something I should know, anyway.

I would definitely recommend discover magazine, though (discovermagazine.com) if you're interested in anything the brain.  They do a good job putting out articles covering some big-name psychologists (I recently read a great one covering Antonio Damasio's research) in pretty simple terms.  There was one specifically, that once I find it I will tell you what month/year it was, about the healing capacity of music for stroke victims.  It appears that music is so removed from language in the brain's function that stroke victims who suffered a left-side stroke to their Brocas area (which handles speech and is only found on the left side of the brain in the posterior region) and had difficulty speaking or could not speak could actually, to their delight, sing without effort.  Because the brain registers music so differently, musical words are actually created and sent out through the opposite side of the brain in many cases.

Listening to music, learning music theory, and playing musical instruments does raise intelligence, creativity, among many, many other benefits.  I could talk for days about the importance of music to brain development, personal development, cultural development, etc.  But it still doesn't impact the brain in the same regions or in the same ways that science does and doesn't create the same outcomes.

Everything from Here Down is Mildly Unrelated, except partially related to what darx said.  You may not be interested if you don't want to get off topic--I'm writing this only after I've accidentally drilled out a few paragraphs...

The Method of Loci, in which you imagine items which need to be remembered in a familiar location, then walk through the location in your mind to remember them, is widely known to be one of the oldest and most effective memory devices.  Yet, we wouldn't say studying architecture or geography would be an immense help to every area of study.  One of the primary reasons memory devices like this work is they ingrain a piece of information to a chunk of knowledge already held, such as a song or place, and thus create a "cognitive path" to this information.  It is the same principle that allows you to smell your ex-boyfriend's cologne and have memories of him--it is not inherently because of the music itself that this works, but because of the created relationship between two items which become "filed" together.

As far as short handing or using Mnemonic devices--these again play on a principle separate from the actual use of creativity to memorize.  The idea is instead of remembering nine things, such as the planets (there was nine when I was younger--I know that since there have been ten and now there's eight), I can remember one phrase, such as "my very educated mother just serves us nasty pickles."  Our brains can hold in our working, 0r active, memories between five and nine items, depending on the person (on average seven, hence the phrase in psychology "Seven Plus or Minus Two"--see Miller's research).  The size of items is irrelevant as long as I understand them, which means I can think of Freudian dream analysis and the 1998 Pistons in whole if I understand both well.  The trick here is I've taken nine things I don't know and linked them to one item, thus allowing me to put the entire chunk of information into my long term memory at the same time, and creating a link between those separately filed planets and this phrase.  Later, when I think of the phrase, my brain will automatically be able to link to the planets, which will all count as one piece of information in my working memory.  It really has very little to do with the creativity of the process and has everything to do with the capacity of the brain--in this manner, someone else can create a device which I can use without being creative at all (such as Oh, Be a Fine Girl, Kiss Me ordering the classes of stars--I didn't come up with it, but I'll remember it forever).

Our knowledge of the brain is truly mid evil when compared to our knowledge of, say, our digestive system.  That being said, we have a much keener idea of how the brain works than a lot of people seem to think.   More on this, if you want it, later.  I've written a lot out of context with the general area of discussion, I just realized.

I'm way off topic.  Sorry.
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darxbane

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Re: Public School Writing Teachers
« Reply #70 on: January 15, 2009, 06:06:39 PM »
You are passionate about it, though.  I don't disagree that different areas of the brain are affected.  In fact, that is all the more reason for more well-rounded educations, especially in the elementary stages.  Between ages two and seven I believe, your brain is just beginning to compartmentalize, so stimulating all areas can only help this happen more efficiently.  I think the main point I am trying to make is that overstimulating one section of the brain and ignoring others is counterproductive.  It would be interesting to see the PET scans (I imagine that is how the data you are referring to was gathered) show some activity in the creative sections of the brain when someone is attempting to discover a different way to solve a math problem, or if the math section is used when someone is writing a poem that requires a rigid, numbered structure.  See my point?  Besides, most math and science classes, as I said before, are memorization classes.  It's more like math and science history than applied science.  I am genuinely curious about the following:  Polynomials are huge in Algebra class (remember the FOIL method).  Despite the thousands of equations that I solved in my schooling, I never asked, nore was I told, when this equation could be applied.  What situation requires this to obtain an answer?  I should look it up, I guess.  If anyone knows, feel free to tell us. 
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GorgonlaVacaTremendo

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Re: Public School Writing Teachers
« Reply #71 on: January 15, 2009, 07:57:15 PM »
As far as the foil method, when solving algebraically you can use it anytime you have a multi-part phrase (polynomial).  Technically, you can use it anytime, since if you have 2 x 5 = 10, you can also do (2)(5) = (2+0) (5+0) = 10+0+0+0 = 10.   Or (2)(5) = (1+1)(3+2) = 3+2+3+2 = 10.  But, that is a really roundabout way of doing things, and you usually would only use it if variables are involved, otherwise there are simpler ways to solve.  But, yeah, technically you could use that method for any multiplication problem, at least as far as I can think of right now.  Also, on an amusing note, I was just typing this up and realized I, at multiple points, accidentally typed "2x5=15."  Whoops.

I think we need to get foreign languages in our kindergartens, if not our preschools, because that is really the most applicable time-oriented brain development area.  Learning to speak is very time-oriented as well, so is learning to recognize faces (ever wonder why if you lived near white people your whole life, black people tend to look the same, or why someone who lived on a farm can tell which cow is which without effort, while you struggle to tell them apart?).  But, I've never seen anything to say learning science, math, rules and regulations of grammar, or reading is time-oriented.  That doesn't mean it's not, I just haven't seen anything to show so.  So, yeah, especially in the early years we need a more well-rounded curriculum based, probably until somewhere between third and fifth grade, around language (especially non-native language) and art--in my opinion.  But in high schools, a more science-based curriculum makes sense, I feel, despite how much I would love to see more arts in schools.

Also, the brain has a tendency to double-up in some cases.  It is just like the stroke victims who could sing words but not speak them, because that capacity was in a different area of the brain, in a lot of cases an activity which uses a certain thought-process a lot (such as poetry with rigid numerical structure) will be able to continue without the area of the brain which normally does that function.  I don't know if this is the case with the examples you gave, but from what I do know, I would say it's very likely to be the case.  Another interesting example of this is motor-memory against other types of memory, where somebody who can't remember his wife's face could get out of bed in his home, go to the kitchen in the dark, make a cup of coffee, clean up, and go out to get the paper without actually being able to to tell you where he is, or how to get where he needs to be.  Because the brain needs to call upon memory to perform motor tasks, it has a separate area for that specific kind of memory.  I'd suspect that if the brain needed a specific kind of math for poetry, it would have a more effective way of doing this math than by firing up all cylinders and wasting a ton of relative time with computations in two very different parts of the brain, including a back-and-forth of information.  For good reason, it doesn't like to do that much, especially when involving the outer layers of the brain.

The reason I've been, up to this point, so adamant about students doing their artistic learning on their own time if resources aren't available in schools is because the question was originally asked about high schools (or, rather, in interpreted it that way because of the talk about "English class"--not something which existed in my elementary experience because all my classes were one).  More art in young children, less history and memorization of facts, way more foreign language--and I'd like to see our math and science at this stage to become more "understanding and puzzle" based than "memorization of rules" based.  I'd like students to, instead of learning multiplication tables, learn the process of multiplying very well.  Tables should come after a really solid understanding, rather than as a quick-cut to speed.  Subjects which require a lot of memorization and little else should still be taught, but as the minority rather than the majority in young students.  If you make them smart, they'll be able to memorize later.  It's not like their memories aren't already getting enough work from life that they wont develop...  But that's just me.
« Last Edit: January 15, 2009, 07:59:11 PM by GorgonlaVacaTremendo »
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readerMom

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Re: Public School Writing Teachers
« Reply #72 on: January 15, 2009, 08:43:55 PM »
It is interesting you should say the theory should come first.  My children have a very geeky grandfather and he loves to play math games with them.  My oldest child seems to have an intuitive understanding of math, he understands the theory very easily and so did the times tables quickly and easily.  My second child did not understand the theory so well, and is struggling (OK, not struggling, but having to work at it).  My second child refuses to play the math games and has to count on her fingers to do addition and subtraction.  I can totally see how a knowledge of the theory informs the ability to learn the specifics.  I had the same problem with calculus, never got the theory down so i struggled until I got to differential calculus, which I loved.
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Re: Public School Writing Teachers
« Reply #73 on: January 15, 2009, 10:23:50 PM »
I am genuinely curious about the following:  Polynomials are huge in Algebra class (remember the FOIL method).  Despite the thousands of equations that I solved in my schooling, I never asked, nore was I told, when this equation could be applied.  What situation requires this to obtain an answer?  I should look it up, I guess.  If anyone knows, feel free to tell us. 

The way it was explained to me when I asked was that the Foil method was a way of solving a problem.  It got you thinking in a logical manner to solve said problem.  It was also said that many higher forms of math also use similar forms of problem solving.  So that the FOIL method is really just a building block for later on, while at the same time gearing the mind into a certain mode of thinking; for problem solving.  At least that was the way it was described to me.
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Re: Public School Writing Teachers
« Reply #74 on: January 15, 2009, 11:31:23 PM »
That makes sense.  Thanks for the explanations, both of you.  I also agree with your elementary education ideas.  I would add more hands-on learning as well.  Also, homework should be restricted to simple projects.  No hour a day for a first grader, that's absurd.  It's hard enough to get kids to go out and play as it is.

I still disagree about high school curriculum, but for a different reason.  I had stated earlier that, by the age of 15, we should have a pretty good understanding of a child's skill set, and should be able to gear the learning more to his or her strengths.  Not everyone needs to be really good in math or science.  We have devices that can help us with that fact.  If someone is good with their hands, or can write really well, shouldn't we be honing those people's best skills instead of delaying their development by forcing them to continue on a path they were not meant to take?  Now don't get me wrong, I understand the potential for hack guidance counselors and school administrators to make snap judgements on students and bury them in Vocational school just because  They are a little behind in 5th grade.  There should be no shortage of resources in schools, period.  If a well-rounded education can't be obtained in the current set up, then we should change it.  There should be no compromise on this, ever.  Adults can be so foolish.  I am 32, and fully aware that the kids in school now are going to be supporting me when I am old and gray, and I would prefer they were enlightened, understanding people.
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