Public School Writing Teachers

[The Jade Knight]

To counter what you have said, I'd like to point out that I feel that I have gained some of my greatest critical thinking and analytical skills (useful in a variety of contexts) through the systematic study of language and history.  There are analytical reasoning skills which are invaluable which you pick up from studying History (and historiography) critically which you can not learn from studying the hard sciences.

[darxbane]

Since writing and language are, at their heart, codes that we interpret in order to communicate, utilizing these skills should have a similar impact on the brain that math has.  More importantly, mastering communication allows you to share your ideas with others more effectively.  Ever have difficulty getting someone to understand your point, or explaining something?  More time spent practicing creative writing as a child may well have increased skills that allow you to explain things in different ways.  It would also get you into the habit of looking at things in different ways.  It comes as no surprise to me that the assault on the Arts in school over the last fewdecades has gone in tandem with the degradation of our country's education system.  If you look at every country that beats us in this (and there are quite a few), they all have the Arts as requirements for students at an early age.  In Japan, for example, every student learns to play an instrument, even if it is just a Recorder.  Playing and listening to complex music has been proven to help the brain work better.  I think we are too focused on math and science at too early an age, to be honest.  School has become more repetition and memorization than real learning and understanding.  Why do you think "Are You Smarter Than a Fifth Grader" doesn't hand out a million dollars every week?

[readerMom]

But this country is sorely lacking a population that is literate in math and sciences.  How many people would have gotten a ARM in the last few years if they could have done the math?  How many people don't understand a word of the whole global warming thing because they cannot understand the science behind it?  I don't want to trust the talking heads for analysis of scientific issues, because most of the time they don't know what the heck they are talking about either.
I personally think we need more math and science teachers that know how to teach well and connect the theoretical with the reality of how these things are everywhere today.
I love science and the humanities.  I've found that it is easier to self-teach art and humanities than it is math.  Once you can read a lot of fields are available, but I don't know of many who can teach themselves calculus.

[SarahG]

Good points, readerMom.  I would add, how many people would play the lottery if they were good at math?

I think I disagree about the self-teaching thing, though.  It seems to me that if you know the basic principles of math, you could learn more advanced principles from a textbook - especially if you were diligent about doing the problems and checking your work in the back of the textbook.  I believe this would be true even with calculus, assuming you already knew your algebra.

On the other hand, I think some of the humanities are very difficult to self-teach, such as foreign languages - especially the listening and speaking aspects.  Another would be creative writing, because without feedback from a professor and/or classmates it would be hard to know how to improve one's work.  The same goes for music and art - you can (and should) practice on your own, but at some point it's very helpful to have a teacher's guidance and correction.

Not that I'm trying to argue for more humanities and less sciences in our educational system.  I'm not sure how I feel about that discussion as a whole except that, like probably everyone here, I wish there were more time and resources to teach more of ALL those fields.  I'm just addressing your comment about which subjects are easier to self-teach.

[The Jade Knight]

I also think a critical distinction needs to be made between basic math and science (up to Freshman Science and Algebra or so), and more advanced math and science.  No one is arguing that it's important to know basic arithmetic and even algebra.  But why require trigonometry and not language?

[readerMom]

But why require trigonometry and not language?

Because in my experience, every male homeowner I know has tried to install his own sprinkler system and a knowledge of angles, theorems and such would have been of great help;)

[The Jade Knight]

Well, as a male who has taken trigonometry who's seen enough well-educated males working on home improvements, I can tell you right now that it doesn't help.  =þ

[GorgonlaVacaTremendo]

The fact is that language and arts do NOT cause the brain to develop in the same ways, not even remotely the same regions, as sciences.  Just because you believe they should doesn't mean they do.  If you read even the most basic research on brain anatomy or development, you'll see a huge difference between the uses of arts and creative analysis and sciences or logical analysis.  Just as a different area of the brain is used to distinguish the motion of an object and its distance, different areas of the brain are stimulated (sometimes in different ways) when talking about lingual code against mathematical code.  The skills learned aren't inherently what I'm talking about when I talk about brain development.  There are physiological changes in the brain as it develops, and these changes allow you to perform certain tasks better, whether or not you're actually learning anything at all.

Also, I'd like to point out that, while I may not have made this clear, one is just as capable of teaching oneself math and science as the arts.  However, people are, in general, more compelled by the arts on a personal level.  This is why people don't have advanced calculus as a hobby as often as they do composition or still life photography.  Students not given a required mandate of scientific material are likely to let it fall by the wayside, which is not as much the case with the arts.

I would put foreign language requirements that we aren't meeting far above creative writing in priority, and for several reasons.  Not only do foreign languages enhance a world-view and encourage multiculturalism, they, also, have a separate impact on the brain--and the longer you don't learn a foreign language, the less likely it is you will be able to.   I'm not saying there's a certain age you can't learn a language anymore, but it does become more and more difficult as your brain develops.  Also, it's simply more useful to a larger portion of the population to know a second language.

I don't think school has "become" more repetition and memorization than learning and understanding, I am under the impression public schools have been like this, in the majority, throughout the entirety of their existence.

[readerMom]

True, reading about 19th century schools make ours seem like little islands of anarchy.  I also think that self-motivated students and those with helpful parents will always do better in life, if not necessarily in school.  The schools struggle to help those without a support system and trying to take over parental duties has also squeezed out extra teaching time.

[SarahG]

The schools struggle to help those without a support system and trying to take over parental duties has also squeezed out extra teaching time.

Excellent point!  I completely agree!  I would add that one neglected parental duty that schools have had to compensate for is discipline.  There would be a lot more time for education if all students already knew how to behave themselves with decorum and respect.

Also, I'd like to point out that, while I may not have made this clear, one is just as capable of teaching oneself math and science as the arts. However, people are, in general, more compelled by the arts on a personal level. This is why people don't have advanced calculus as a hobby as often as they do composition or still life photography.

This made me laugh because it's true.  It also made me want to pull out my college calculus textbook and start doing problems in my spare time, just so I could say that was my hobby.   

[darxbane]

Gorgon, please send me some links to the studies you are using.  I am always interested in this sort of thing, especially now that I have to young children.  You say that music affects different areas of the brain, yet it is shown that those who learn music and listen to complex musical compositions actually show greater intelligence.  It is also well known that you remember things much more easily if you sing them, make them rhyme, or create Mnemonics (which I dare say is artistic, in a way).  We still know so little about the brain, it could be possible that the pathways enhanced by music and art help the brain better access the memory needed to more effectively use the logical centers of the brain. 

SarahG - I agree to a point, but what if the problem is how much we are teaching, but how it is being taught?  Math and Science need to be applied in order to be used, yet schools do not focus enough on this fact.  They stick to memorize, repeat, then move on to the next thing.  As for the mortgage crisis, math had little to do with it.  This is an example of what happens when you are made to feel you deserve something no matter the consequence, or when you want something so bad you make yourself believe the risks won't apply to you.  There were almost daily news stories warning people of the risks or ARM, SubPrime and interest only loans, yet they still were taken. 

I totally agree with the discipline thing.  I have several teachers in my family, as well as some friends, and they complain about the lack of discipline all the time.  What's worse, the parents actually castigate the teachers for administering any discipline!  It appears their little darlings are perfect, and the teacher is just singling them out.  Parental responsibility, responsibility in general, is the real problem. 

[Fellfrosch]

Shaggy: It's true that not all gifted programs are great, but readerMom is talking about one that she has personal experience with, and which has thus far produced at least two internationally published authors. I think that gives her plenty of reason to use it as an example of a good program.

[Shaggy]

Oh, I recognize that. I'm not saying the program wasn't worthwhile (I didn't say that, did I?).

[The Jade Knight]

The fact is that language and arts do NOT cause the brain to develop in the same ways, not even remotely the same regions, as sciences.  Just because you believe they should doesn't mean they do.

Of course they don't!  On the exact same note, the sciences don't develop the brain in remotely the same regions or ways as the arts!  Some of these "right-brain" changes are critical to problem solving.

However, people are, in general, more compelled by the arts on a personal level.

I really am not convinced of this statement.  I have a friend who studies quantum physics for fun.  I know plenty of people that get into programming on their own.  Ever met a Linux user?  That's a hobby.  I have learned more about statistics on my own to better analyize the statistics of RPG's and board games.  I know literally hundreds of people, personally, who have studied linguistics (which is not an art or part of the humanities) or language as a hobby.  I've heard the statistic, and I believe it's true (from my own experiences), that about 1 in 10 individuals create their own languages.  While this may seem like a creative endeavor, for a great many individuals, it's a highly analytical, and even mathematical thing.  And trust me, when you get into phonetic sound changes, you're on par with algebra.  I myself am very interested in Botany and Zoology, and I spend countless hours learning about spiders (this coming from someone who majored in English and History in order to avoid taking any more math).  I'm not that unusual, either.

The fact of the matter is that tons of people are passionate about the sciences, and learn them as hobbies, but they don't learn a lot of the kinds of science taught in school, because most of that science is useless to most people.  People learn about useful science on their own, however, almost as much as people get involved with art.  If there is much of a difference between the two, I expect it's simply a matter that science is overtaught in school, where the arts and humanities are undertaught, or taught poorly.  People are more likely to go out of their way to fill in gaps in their knowledge.

Students not given a required mandate of scientific material are likely to let it fall by the wayside, which is not as much the case with the arts.

I've seen absolutely no evidence that this is correct.  Case in point:  Latin.  When Latin stopped being taught in school, Latin literacy dropped drastically, despite its utility on a great number of levels (learning many other languages more easily, the ability to read a wealth of Latin literature, religious associations [for Catholics], etc.)

I would put foreign language requirements that we aren't meeting far above creative writing in priority, and for several reasons.  Not only do foreign languages enhance a world-view and encourage multiculturalism, they, also, have a separate impact on the brain--and the longer you don't learn a foreign language, the less likely it is you will be able to.   I'm not saying there's a certain age you can't learn a language anymore, but it does become more and more difficult as your brain develops.  Also, it's simply more useful to a larger portion of the population to know a second language.

I agree with all of this, though I do think that much of the way English and History are taught in our school systems is misguided and unfortunate, and believe that encouraging more creative writing in English would increase literacy more.

[Shaggy]

Case in point:  Latin.  When Latin stopped being taught in school

Jade, I feel I must correct you on this. Of the two private schools I have attended, both have offered Latin as a course, although one of the schools only offered it in fifth grade. In fact, in the school I currently attend, Latin is a required course for grades 7 and 8 (9-12 is optional).