Author Topic: WOT Help  (Read 125249 times)

JoeC

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Re: WOT Help
« Reply #420 on: April 11, 2009, 11:12:07 PM »
Thanks for the responses guys!!

Okay, okay, I got the whole "Mat is Hawking reborn" very wrong. I never thought to link the fact that heros who are reborn cannot be summoned back from the "dead" by the Horn of Valere.

Also,

-Forgot to mention that Lan found Nyneave. He rescued her right after Moghedian balefired her ship in half. Although I found this scenario extremely convenient, I still enjoyed it. I am actually a big fan of Nyneave and I like seeing how Lan breaks down all (or most) of her emotional wards. A man who can make Nyneave fall in love truly is something else. It's fun watching her try to remain serene and Aes Sedai-like while she really wishes to melt into Lan's arms like a school girl. Combine that with her forcing herself to be humbled in Mat's presence (of all people!!) this book has been a great trip for Nyneave (at least as far as reading her story goes...might not say the same for her!!.)

-Rand and Min spend almost all of their time together. Seems he has fallen in love again! I like this development even though I think  falling in love with a woman (let alone three) is not a timely thing when you're training to save the world whil going mad at the same time. O well, I enjoy these subplots.

-As far as guessing which Forsaken has been reborn as Moridin.......I'll go with Ishamael on this one. He's the only Forsaken who's death wasn't FINAL. (except Lanfear's) When Rand defeated him at the end of Dragon Reborn (?) it didn't feel like a FINAL death. If that doesn't make sense, sorry, it's the only way I can describe it. Plus, since Ishamael manipulated his appearence with the saa, being Ba'alzamon, he could be Moridin too.

-Also, Moridin claims to draw power from the "True Power". Not the True Source, or the One Power, but the True Power. This is a new development. He says it's from the Dark One himself. Well, I know that the male Forsaken are immune to the taint once linked to the Dark One. Is this what that means?? Untainted saidin drawn directly from the Dark One? Or is this a while new Source altogether. Confusing!!!

Thanks for the responses guys!! I'm glad you enjoy reading this as much as I enjoy writing it!!

-Joe

douglas

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Re: WOT Help
« Reply #421 on: April 12, 2009, 12:24:07 AM »
-Forgot to mention that Lan found Nyneave. He rescued her right after Moghedian balefired her ship in half. Although I found this scenario extremely convenient, I still enjoyed it. I am actually a big fan of Nyneave and I like seeing how Lan breaks down all (or most) of her emotional wards. A man who can make Nyneave fall in love truly is something else. It's fun watching her try to remain serene and Aes Sedai-like while she really wishes to melt into Lan's arms like a school girl. Combine that with her forcing herself to be humbled in Mat's presence (of all people!!) this book has been a great trip for Nyneave (at least as far as reading her story goes...might not say the same for her!!.)
Convenient, yes, but it was set up and executed quite well.  I'm especially amused to think of how Moghedian might react when she learns that she broke Nynaeve's block. :o

-As far as guessing which Forsaken has been reborn as Moridin.......I'll go with Ishamael on this one. He's the only Forsaken who's death wasn't FINAL. (except Lanfear's) When Rand defeated him at the end of Dragon Reborn (?) it didn't feel like a FINAL death. If that doesn't make sense, sorry, it's the only way I can describe it. Plus, since Ishamael manipulated his appearence with the saa, being Ba'alzamon, he could be Moridin too.
Correct, you got it in one!  For a more complete and less "feel" based analysis, of the Forsaken that have died up to that point:
Aginor and Balthamel have already been brought back as Aran'gar and Osan'gar.
Be'lal was killed by balefire and is beyond the Dark One's reach.
Rahvin was killed by balefire and is beyond the Dark One's reach.
Asmodean betrayed the Dark One.
That leaves only Lanfear and Ishamael.  Moridin's personality and goals just don't fit Lanfear at all, and she has hardly done anything to earn the high position Moridin has, so that leaves Ishamael as the only possibility.

-Also, Moridin claims to draw power from the "True Power". Not the True Source, or the One Power, but the True Power. This is a new development. He says it's from the Dark One himself. Well, I know that the male Forsaken are immune to the taint once linked to the Dark One. Is this what that means?? Untainted saidin drawn directly from the Dark One? Or is this a while new Source altogether. Confusing!!!
If you think back to the Rhuidean history scene where you get a glimpse of the drilling of the Bore, you'll note that Mierin and Beidomon thought they had found a new source of the One Power (or something very similar), usable by both genders.  They were technically correct, they just didn't count on this source having a mind and goals of its own.

The True Power is, essentially, the Dark One's personal power.  He can allow channelers to channel it instead of the One Power.  It has a number of advantages, such as being undetectable by anyone not also using the True Power, but is also extremely addictive and has some nasty side effects if used repeatedly.  Ba'alzamon's fiery eyes are an advanced form of the saa, for example.

Shard

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Re: WOT Help
« Reply #422 on: April 12, 2009, 01:03:30 AM »
Since douglas covered Ishy  Moridin pretty well I'll address the whole Lan saving Nynaeve. I know it may seem convienant but it wasn't like he just happened to be there. I think Rand took him there didn't he? Just a few days ride from Ebu Dar. I also hope you noticed something else very important about that scene, something Nynaeve has been dealing with for a very long time now. Expect a major attitude change with Nynaeve.

I can't help but say that Rand/Min is my favorite couple of the series. I know it may not be prudant for Rand to fall in love but who says that Love is logical?
We need the metaphor of Magic and Monsters to understand the Human condition ~Stephan Donaldson.

douglas

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Re: WOT Help
« Reply #423 on: April 12, 2009, 01:50:40 AM »
I think Rand took him there didn't he?
It was Egwene.  Rand hasn't seen Lan since shortly after Moiraine jumped Lanfear.

Renoard

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Re: WOT Help
« Reply #424 on: April 12, 2009, 02:21:21 AM »

Aginor and Balthamel have already been brought back as Aran'gar and Osan'gar.


Problem here.  From all I can see one is a woman in a man's body and the other reverses this.  I believe both Aginor and Balthamel were males so this would prevent at least one of them from being Arangar and Osangar (heh left and right. Ryos should appreciate that).

As for Moridin I always suspected that he was a fade that had been "upgraded"  He has such pronounced Saa because he only uses the True Source.  There was a particular fade that we see just for one little vignette where he is playing house with a captive human woman.  Always thought he might be Moridin.
You can always get what you want if you never count the cost.

Shard

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Re: WOT Help
« Reply #425 on: April 12, 2009, 03:16:29 AM »
@Douglas: Thank you I thought it was a woman and Egwene would make far more sense then Rand lol. It seems *I* need to do a re-read of the series.

@Renoard: RJ has pretty much confirmed that it is Balthamel who is in the Woman's body aka Aran'Gar. Since Balthamel was a womanizer they thought it was a great joke to put him in a woman's body. Aginor trust me is in Osan'gar's body, I'd cite evidence but that would be spoilers for JoeC.
We need the metaphor of Magic and Monsters to understand the Human condition ~Stephan Donaldson.

douglas

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Re: WOT Help
« Reply #426 on: April 12, 2009, 03:42:23 AM »
Both Aran'gar and Osan'gar channel Saidin, so both were originally male.  Additionally, none of the Forsaken that die before those two are resurrected are female.  If that's not enough to convince you, see the WOTFAQ entry on it, 1.2.1: Who are Aran'gar and Osan'gar?  Note for JoeC: this particular page of the Wheel of Time FAQ no longer has any spoilers for you.  Just be careful about following the links on it.

Shaidar Haran is completely separate from Moridin and there is no reason to suspect any other fade has been given special powers.  The WOTFAQ has a Who is Moridin? page that gives the subject a very thorough treatment.  Note for JoeC: stay away from this page, it has some spoilers through Winter's Heart.

ulkesh

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Re: WOT Help
« Reply #427 on: April 12, 2009, 06:29:15 PM »
-Also, Moridin claims to draw power from the "True Power". Not the True Source, or the One Power, but the True Power. This is a new development. He says it's from the Dark One himself. Well, I know that the male Forsaken are immune to the taint once linked to the Dark One. Is this what that means?? Untainted saidin drawn directly from the Dark One? Or is this a while new Source altogether. Confusing!!!

Saidar and Saidin are the female/male aspects of the One Power. I always saw this as the power of the creator, since it comes from the true source and literally "powers" the wheel of time  ;D

The True Power however is the direct personal power of the Dark One. It is extremely powerful, addictive and only the DO himself can allow you to use it. Pretty serious stuff  ;D

Shard

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Re: WOT Help
« Reply #428 on: April 12, 2009, 06:31:27 PM »
-Also, Moridin claims to draw power from the "True Power". Not the True Source, or the One Power, but the True Power. This is a new development. He says it's from the Dark One himself. Well, I know that the male Forsaken are immune to the taint once linked to the Dark One. Is this what that means?? Untainted saidin drawn directly from the Dark One? Or is this a while new Source altogether. Confusing!!!

Saidar and Saidin are the female/male aspects of the One Power. I always saw this as the power of the creator, since it comes from the true source and literally "powers" the wheel of time  ;D

The True Power however is the direct personal power of the Dark One. It is extremely powerful, addictive and only the DO himself can allow you to use it. Pretty serious stuff  ;D

It's the ultimate and best way to control someone through addiction. Shame someone so smart and powerful can be so.... stupid.
We need the metaphor of Magic and Monsters to understand the Human condition ~Stephan Donaldson.

Casco

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Re: WOT Help
« Reply #429 on: April 12, 2009, 07:50:58 PM »
And the true power will destroy everyone who use it in the end. Thats why they get the black spots that flicker over their eyes (sa). The more they use the true power...the closer they get to destruction.

Shard

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Re: WOT Help
« Reply #430 on: April 12, 2009, 08:54:47 PM »
Yes the next stage is actual fire coming from his eyes and mouth. Seriously this man is just plain in Insane in the membrane.
We need the metaphor of Magic and Monsters to understand the Human condition ~Stephan Donaldson.

Casco

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Re: WOT Help
« Reply #431 on: April 13, 2009, 06:33:41 AM »
Yes he is :) But still, he does alot of mistakes. ordering the Black Ajah and the other Forsaken around but dont get anything done. Imo, i dont think he will be the leader of the Forsaken for long, but still, the dark lord maby want it to be that way. The dark lord allways wanted the Forsaken to fight with each other so the strongest ones will be there when TG comes.
That proves that the dark lord isnt very smart...

Im glad you enjoyed the Nyneave development :D She is a great character and i laugh out laud somethimes when i read about her. There is still one more charater who will grow ALOT...i wont tell anything about him/her now, but i think you will enjoy the ride in Knife of dreams.
« Last Edit: April 13, 2009, 06:39:18 AM by Casco »

Patriotic Kaz

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Re: WOT Help
« Reply #432 on: April 13, 2009, 04:13:31 PM »
the true source doesn't destroy you it has a price that is never specified but only a few are willing to pay it even among the forsaken...the price is somehow linked to ishy's madness
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douglas

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Re: WOT Help
« Reply #433 on: April 13, 2009, 04:19:04 PM »
Careful with your terminology there, Kaz.  The True Source is what the One Power (Saidin and Saidar) comes from.  What you meant was the True Power.

Patriotic Kaz

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Re: WOT Help
« Reply #434 on: April 13, 2009, 04:43:03 PM »
woops i guess i should proof my work, though my point still stands the power that runs off the dark one has side effects that are very cost worthy but no where does it state that it destroys the user...
"Words are double edged blades. Only the great and the foolish play with knives." - Kaz the Buddah

"Take off your sandals, for you are posting on holy ground." -  Yahweh Kaz

"Chaos, go to your room!" - Momma Kaz