WOT Help

[Reaves]

I have a friend who’s read Tolkien on Tolkien, and he said that in it Tolkien constantly reiterated that he hated symbolism thought out his autobiograph. I don’t think for one moment that tLotR is religious in the least, or meant to be taken as religious.

Oh absolutely. People say that Gandalf is supposed to be Jesus, etc and he would have hated that.

[happyman]

I have a friend who’s read Tolkien on Tolkien, and he said that in it Tolkien constantly reiterated that he hated symbolism thought out his autobiograph. I don’t think for one moment that tLotR is religious in the least, or meant to be taken as religious.

Oh absolutely. People say that Gandalf is supposed to be Jesus, etc and he would have hated that.

Define religious.  I think the real question is whether the people in Middle-Earth had a religion.  It seems to me that they did, although it wasn't an organized religion like the ones most people here are discussing.  Middle-Earth had quite an involved history, and some of the most important bits had the creators wandering around and occasionally fighting each other.  There is also an established afterlife, although some of the points are a bit vague.  For the Elves, there is also the possibility of going to heaven by quite literally getting on a boat and sailing (with a special dispensation, one which also can apply to Hobbits apparently).  Not to mention the transparent analogies to the fall of man (or elf) in the Silmarrion.

It helps that in Middle-Earth, there are Elves around who remember most of the history so it is history, not faith-based religion, per se.

[Razor]

Most of the big WOT fans I know do not like the SOT series.  This is in part because SOT borrows so heavily from WOT ideas (which I do not mind as WOT borrowed from Tolkien, mythology, etc) but I and most WOT fans take big exception to how Goodkind denies ever reading WOT which appears to be such a blatant lie.  (If he did come up with all this on his own then we all owe him an apology but it seems unlikely).  My main complaints about Goodkind is that he is so preachy, his writing is too superficial and his characters are to two  dimensional.  The characters are either very good or vary bad (there are some exceptions like the development of the Mord sith characters).  Richard is always right, even when he looks wrong, he is right by some convoluted plot twist, etc.  Jordan has much deeper multidimensional characters.  The good characters have some darkness to them, and even the evil characters have some lovable points.  If fact the forsaken are some of my favorite characters.  Two other problems I have with Goodkind are his somewhat graphic descriptions,of evil (although descriptions of Richard's torture by the Mord sith may have been necessary to plot development) and the cheesy ending to the series.  Jordan says he knew how WOT would end from the beginning, and all of us WOT fans have been looking forward to this great ending for the past 20 yrs will be really po'd i the ending is as stupid and contrived as what Goodkind came up with.

I guess you know from my post how much I enjoy WOT.  In spite of the above rant  I enjoyed SOT as well but it was a much simpler, superficial series.  Jordan weaves such an intricate, complicated, multidimensional plot and characters that it is a great joy to read and read again.  Every time you reread the series you discover new things, either new foreshadowing, new subtle plot twists or details, that is is amazing.  I think much of the criticisms of Jordan's series stems form the fact it is so complicated and was written over such an extended time that each book  while much anticipated was always unsatisfying because when finished, we were left with the realization that it would be 2 years until we got to read more.  Book 10, for example, is very enjoyable as a reread knowing what happens in book 11 and being able to go right into the nest book, but as a stand alone, having to   wait 2 yrs for book 11 was another thing altogether.  For anyone that enjoys a good story and really interesting char ac`ters, I cannot think of another series to recommend above TWOT.  GRRMartin may be a better writer, and ASOF and I is a great series as well, but it is so graphic and violent, that it can turn off a lot of readers.

[mtbikemom]

I guess you've never read his other books? He did write more than just The Lord of the Rings in that world, you know. The Silmarillion goes extremely in depth to God (Illuvatar) and the angels, far more than Sanderson does (so far). You should read it.

He did not put religion into the Lord of the Rings because he thought it would cheapen it. From what I've read of what he said, I think he believed it would be "preachy." I agree to a point.

He did however give clear indication in The Lord of the Rings that there is a "higher power" and a force for good. Not religion, but belief.

Reaves,
   I am also paraphrasing, but another thing Tolkien said was that he despised allegory (which his friend C.S. Lewis wrote almost exclusively).  Christian allegory can be tedious, but wonderful if done well.  (For Happyman: "Religion" is defined by some as man's attempt to please/satisfy the demands of God, or whomever/whatever one worships.)  Whether a person believes it or not, everyone has a religion.  To write characters who seem to have none is, to me, empty and incomplete.  My various belief systems, which have changed throughout my life, are the most important factor in explaining my motives and actions at any given time.

   To those of us who have a very close bond of daily communication and worship with the God of the Bible, even the amazing Tolkien portrayed a distant creator, uninvolved in the daily doings of Middle Earth as an active participant.  None of his people groups worshiped their creator, or anything, really.  They just recalled their own history and longed for things that had passed away.

 I haven't read all of EUOL's books yet, but at least he describes different systems of worship and the contrast between true and false belief systems.  This is not important to everyone, especially those who deny the importance of faith in a higher power, but it is important to me.  My Higher Power suffered a lot so I could know Him and be free.

   I read the Silmarillion cover to cover once and I feel it qualifies me as a card-carrying fantasy geek.  That is the only reason I know that Tolkien's wizards were somewhat like angels... was the word something like Maya? 
   the mountain biking mom

[mtlhddoc2]

"Whether a person believes it or not, everyone has a religion"

This is patently untrue. Everyone has a BELIEF, not a religion. I know plenty of people who believe in a higher power, and thats it, no relgion about it. They just believe, period. And then me, my belief is that I do not believe. No religion about it. I am not the Anti-Christ. I have a set of morals, I lead a full life with love and happiness. And most people say I am one of the happiest people they know. By contrast, most, if not all of the "religious" people I know (mostly Catholics) are some of the most miserable people I have ever met. The point is: belief/religion has absolutely NOTHING to do with the type of person one is, whether you will be happy or not, nor whether you will lead a full or empty life.

[GreenMonsta]

Thread jacking is imminent on this thread if this topic of conversation doesn't change. Just letting you know that religion is a "hot" topic and generally gets people interested in voicing their own opinions. Dangerous territory. I think there is a thread where we discussed religion in depth. I forget where but its out there. I advise that if you wish to continue the conversation on religion then make a thread possibly in the everything else category.

I'm not a hall monitor, I have just seen this happen here before. Power too you if you want to continue posting about this. I for one enjoy reading this thread due to its relationship with WoT and not religion.

[mtlhddoc2]

AM: I am just disappointed that MY beliefs continue to be attacked in this thread yet, people ignore it. As long as the attacks continue, I will have no choice but to respond.

I enjoy this thread as well, but some people do feel the need to thrust their beliefs and why they are better than someone else's into the topic. Sad really.

[GreenMonsta]

Alright. Personally I don't care about who, what or where. We are all friends and nothing should be taken as an attack. I'm sorry if you feel that you or your beliefs have been attacked. Since this is the case I strongly suggest that a new thread be created to continue any and all conversation about beliefs. I personally think all beliefs are as good as eachother so don't think I don't care. And again I'm not trying to play MOD here. If you have issues with someone and what they are saying try to PM them and tell them your issue. If that doesn't work then PM a MOD and they will help you out.

[JoeC]

Jeez, I saw this thread was going a little crazy so I figured I'd give an update just to get things back on track. I'm on page 387 of TGH and this book is definitely 5 times better than EotW. I'm almost done so I'll have to put in my order for Dragon Reborn soon.
 I do kinda have a complaint, the scenes with Rand are getting a little tedious. When I'm reading a chapter that focuses on him, everything seems to slow to a crawl. All the other points of view seem so much more interesting. Hopefully, it will pass soon. It's no good to find the main character boring, especially in a series this long. I'm still intent on reading it. Perhaps these "boring" parts contain something that will become relevant later and I'll have an "Ah-ha!!" moment and realize I was complaining about nothing.
Another thing, it's weird how long it takes me to read Jordan's books. I read fairly quickly, but these seem to have no end. Maybe it just takes longer to read because of Jordan's way of writing. There are so many pages with NO conversation on them and it's all descriptions. Don't get me wrong, I like it. I like getting a lot out of a book and at least I don't have to put away money for a book every 2 or 3 weeks. BTW Selene weirds me out BIG time. I don't care if she's smokin' hot, she's loopy. I have my suspicions.........
Thanks again guys.

[maxonennis]

Joe, I think the slow Rand POV is in there as part of a make up for seeing a lot less of him as the series continues. Also, he just has more things going on than anyone esle, so the POV would go slower.

[spejoku]

It's interesting to see how Rand changes throughout the novels, and how Mat and Perrin start developing their own abilities.  Warning though, in TDR, Rand appears maybe 3 or 4 times through the novel, with his POVs being about 3 pages each (except for the long one at the beginning, I think)

I found it easiest to have the sequel close at hand.  it helps cement the story together if you finish a previous book and move on to the next without a break between them.

[douglas]

Jeez, I saw this thread was going a little crazy so I figured I'd give an update just to get things back on track. I'm on page 387 of TGH and this book is definitely 5 times better than EotW.

Hardcover, paperback, mass market paperback, or some other edition?  I believe page counts vary considerably among those, and there might even be minor differences between different printings of the same type.  Plus, I'd have to actually check the book to see where in the plot a given page number is.  It would be better to give a chapter name or describe a recent scene briefly to identify where you are in a book.

I do kinda have a complaint, the scenes with Rand are getting a little tedious. When I'm reading a chapter that focuses on him, everything seems to slow to a crawl. All the other points of view seem so much more interesting. Hopefully, it will pass soon. It's no good to find the main character boring, especially in a series this long. I'm still intent on reading it. Perhaps these "boring" parts contain something that will become relevant later and I'll have an "Ah-ha!!" moment and realize I was complaining about nothing.

Is he out of the alternate world yet, and if so how recently?  He really doesn't have very much to do in that tiny group cut off from everything.

BTW Selene weirds me out BIG time. I don't care if she's smokin' hot, she's loopy. I have my suspicions.........
Thanks again guys.

Anything specific or just a general feeling that she's odd and out of place?

[mtbikemom]

I'm not a hall monitor, I have just seen this happen here before. Power too you if you want to continue posting about this. I for one enjoy reading this thread due to its relationship with WoT and not religion.

Monsta, baby, and dear JoeC, please allow me to apologize for ranting just a bit within this thread.  Are you both acquainted with the term "stream of consciousness?"  I have a bad habit of writing that way.  I am a newbie and perpetual lurker who has found a place to intelligently, I hope, discuss certain topics pertaining to fantasy that interest me.  I am also timid about starting a new thread, unfamiliar as I am with the way these things work, but I have enjoyed being listened-to and I have appreciated some of the comments. 

In my defense, this was all for Joe's benefit, thereby on topic, and anyone else who is enjoying reading his posts as a new WOT reader.  I used to see similar ideas shared on Dragomount's forums, but not with a great deal of thoughtfulness or maturity sometimes.  Nevertheless, they enhanced my appreciation of my second read-through TWoT whether I agreed or not.  Got me thinking about themes I had not considered before... isn't that what literary discussions are all about?

I am not politically correct in my opinions and I never will be.  I have a feeling that this forum is a somewhat safe place for dangerous ideas like mine.   My theme was not, if one reads carefully, religion/faith per se but, rather, how certain well-known authors explain the motivations behind their morally-minded characters.  And how their worldview affects how they world-build.  I guess those ideas belong on the writers' forum or elsewhere.  Bear with me... I will figure this thing out!

If anyone is interested, I posted an introduction to myself in the "recent projects" thread.  I hadn't yet run across the introduction section... oops again.  I welcome personal messages, but will ignore anything closed-minded or lacking respectfulness.

  Let's not get bent out of shape, dearest Time Wasters, by unpopular opinions.  This is the American way and the reason my grandpa fought in two wars.   Sharing one's faith, even just in passing, should not be construed as an attack against anything, should it?

[mtbikemom]

"Whether a person believes it or not, everyone has a religion"

This is patently untrue. Everyone has a BELIEF, not a religion. I know plenty of people who believe in a higher power, and thats it, no relgion about it. They just believe, period. And then me, my belief is that I do not believe. No religion about it. I am not the Anti-Christ. I have a set of morals, I lead a full life with love and happiness. And most people say I am one of the happiest people they know. By contrast, most, if not all of the "religious" people I know (mostly Catholics) are some of the most miserable people I have ever met. The point is: belief/religion has absolutely NOTHING to do with the type of person one is, whether you will be happy or not, nor whether you will lead a full or empty life.

   You have a point here, I think.

 I personally dislike the word "religion" and don't consider myself a religious person, being somewhat inconsistent in my acts of charity/devotion at times, but the explanation of that does not belong here.  I'll send you a personal message if I decide it's worth my time. 

On the other hand, you denied having religious beliefs and then proceeded to describe them.  A strong denial of the existence of God is a religion or personal philosophy or faith system, whatever you choose to call it, despite all evidence to the contrary.  In my ever-so-humble-opinion!  Do you look at a beautiful painting and deny the existence of the painter?

   BTW, everything you said above could have been said by me at age 19 or so and there was NO WAY I was ever gonna become a Jesus freak, of all ridiculous things.  I mean, give me a break!  Adam and Eve?  Noah's Ark and the flood?  How could any intelligent human put their faith in such obvious fables intended to subjugate the masses?  I really thought I knew it all, but I was wrong.

 O.K., Monsta, I'm done with this theme, I promise!  Nothing but sweetness and light for poor Joe from now on!

[Peter Ahlstrom]

It's important not to get hung up by definitions. When one person thinks of the word "religion" they may think of an organized and codified belief system and corresponding organization, while someone else may use the term "religion" much more loosely.