Author Topic: WOT Help  (Read 125260 times)

JoeC

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Re: WOT Help
« Reply #75 on: December 10, 2008, 02:49:56 AM »
Thanks guys. I'm about 140 pages into Great Hunt and man oh man is this getting good!! THIS is what I was waiting for while reading Eye of the World. Now things are coming together and I am starting to really get IN to the story. I was having  a hard time with EOTW and how it was mostly slow until the end so I was definitely worried about the rest of the books. Well I don't know about 3-11, but I'm loving the hell out of book 2 now. I'll keep you guys updated.

CharlesMahan

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Re: WOT Help
« Reply #76 on: December 10, 2008, 07:26:09 AM »
Congradulations on starting a wonderful read.  Keep at it. The first three books will feel very different from book four.  The story will eventually become absolutely vast.  The events of the Wheel of Time are roughly comparable in impact to WWII was for us.  Imagine if someone setout to tell the story of WWII from the viewpoint of virtually all the key players on all sides.  That'll give you a pretty good idea of the scope of the story.  It's an amazingly ambitious undertaking.

The Wheel of Time contains a concept of an Age Lace.  The basic idea is that every person's life is a thread.  Those threads are woven into a pattern as people interact with each other.  In most cases, these threads are allowed to wander about however they like within the pattern.  Every so often the wheel which weaves the pattern churns out a central thread.  A Ta'veren.  This person becomes a focal point in the pattern.  The Ta'veren influences those around him and bends their threads around him.  This bending ripples outward through the pattern and more and more threads are woven together around the Ta'veren.  The more powerfully one is Ta'veren, the more influence that person will have over the pattern.  This weaving of threads around a Ta'veren is called an Age Lace.  I suspect this is a very familiar concept to most writers.

I told you that story to tell you this story ;)  WOT  has always seemed to me to be an attempt to tell the story one Age Lace.  Perhaps the most important and largest Age Lace ever.  Rand al'Thor is probably the strongest ta'veren of all time.  The Age Lace which surrounds him encompasses the entire planet. WOT tells the story of this age lace from the point of view of the players key to every major and most of the minor events which are key to the massive social, political, and military upheavals which encompass the entire globe. 

So yes it is a BIG BIG story.   Jordan made a concious decision to tell the stories of many events which most authors would have occur offscreen and characters to which most authors would make only a passing reference.  It can be absolutely bewildering, especially in later books if it's been awhile since you've read previous books.  The cast of named characters numbers in the hundreds if not thousands.  Some minor characters which only make a brief appearance in early books sometimes reapear later in the story having been wrapped up in the Age Lace.  All that said it is immensely rewarding.  Stories on this magnitude are VERY few and far between and in my experience nobody has ever written in this scope as well as Jordan did before he passed. The story slows down in a few places, in particular shortly after one extremely major event where Jordan spends an entire book showing the ramifications and reactions of various groups to that major event.  As a stand alone book that book seems slow and as if nothing happens, but as a chapter in a much larger book it makes much more sense.

Anyway.  Stick with it, ignore the skepticism.  You won't regret it if you get all the way through.

Oh and a hint to all thikning about starting it up.  Check your local used book stores.  Sometimes you can pick up the entire series on hardback for a few doallars per book. 
Iaido
---------------------------------
Breaking down bad habbits
and building new ones.

JCHancey

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Re: WOT Help
« Reply #77 on: December 10, 2008, 08:01:15 AM »
Be sure to get the hardback, my paperback copies have completely fallen apart from being read too much ;) you'll love these books!
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maxonennis

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Re: WOT Help
« Reply #78 on: December 10, 2008, 06:56:44 PM »
Congradulations on starting a wonderful read.  Keep at it. The first three books will feel very different from book four.  The story will eventually become absolutely vast.  The events of the Wheel of Time are roughly comparable in impact to WWII was for us.  Imagine if someone setout to tell the story of WWII from the viewpoint of virtually all the key players on all sides.  That'll give you a pretty good idea of the scope of the story.  It's an amazingly ambitious undertaking.

The Wheel of Time contains a concept of an Age Lace.  The basic idea is that every person's life is a thread.  Those threads are woven into a pattern as people interact with each other.  In most cases, these threads are allowed to wander about however they like within the pattern.  Every so often the wheel which weaves the pattern churns out a central thread.  A Ta'veren.  This person becomes a focal point in the pattern.  The Ta'veren influences those around him and bends their threads around him.  This bending ripples outward through the pattern and more and more threads are woven together around the Ta'veren.  The more powerfully one is Ta'veren, the more influence that person will have over the pattern.  This weaving of threads around a Ta'veren is called an Age Lace.  I suspect this is a very familiar concept to most writers.

Jordan got the concept of the pattern and life as a fabric woven by a wheel from Buddhism/Hinduism. In those religions they believe, or fundamentally believe, that there is a wheel spinning out the threads of reality. It might also be the inspiration behind Age Lace, though I don’t know because I’ve never read it.
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Maxonennis’ soliloquy on Frog relations: “How can I bake the hall in the candle of her brain?”

Reaves

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Re: WOT Help
« Reply #79 on: December 10, 2008, 11:08:59 PM »
And the snake biting its own tail is something from the greeks, and several other ancient civilizations.

did any math people notice the snake bears a certain resemblance to the mathematical equivalent of infinity?
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GreenMonsta

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Re: WOT Help
« Reply #80 on: December 10, 2008, 11:33:29 PM »
It has been noticed and it would make sense.
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mtbikemom

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Re: WOT Help
« Reply #81 on: December 10, 2008, 11:53:29 PM »
Be sure to get the hardback, my paperback copies have completely fallen apart from being read too much ;) you'll love these books!

The only reason to collect paperbacks of the first two books is for the really nice b&w illustrations throughout.  I'm talking about the paperbacks that split each volume into two parts, the first titled From the Two Rivers.  The cover art is just as bad as usual.  All the drawings of the main characters within are good, I think, except maybe Rand's.  I've yet to see one that captured the complexity of that combination of moral integrity and inner chaos.  Hard to draw.  

Oh, now that I look, the artwork I like so much is from Wizards of the Coast and Sally Wern Comport.  No wonder.

(Slight spoiler alert!)

It's the moral integrity of the Two Rivers characters that kept me reading all the way to the end.  My biggest complaint about RJ's world is that he never explains where this comes from and why they (Two Rivers folk) seem to have a foundational sense of right and wrong and almost no one else that they encounter really does, except the Tinkers and a few others.  In the real world, there is some kind of codified belief system behind most societies who honor women and children and place a high value on all life in general.  I don't believe it occurs in a vacuum.  

I'd like to discuss the Aiel here and how their rejection of their moral code has changed them, how cheap life has become to them, but that would get into spoiler territory, so I won't say more.  It's interesting, though, and worthy of a thread someday if it has not already been discussed.  

(Nominal Spoiler section over)

 To Brandon Sanderson's credit, he does not gloss over this important detail, religion or lack of it, and often reveals why his characters believe and act as they do and I appreciate that.  And he does it without skewing everything toward his own belief system.  That is annoying to me even when it skews to my own!  Except for C.S. Lewis, who did it so well.

 I have to believe my fantasy or I can't enjoy it.  Is that so wrong??  There is only so much unbelief I am willing to suspend, in other words.  My above WOT complaint is mitigated tremendously by great character development and lots of unexpected and imaginative plot deviations.  That's probably why The Shadow Rising is my favorite book.


maxonennis

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Re: WOT Help
« Reply #82 on: December 11, 2008, 12:22:48 AM »
You have an interesting view, mtbikemom, about the morality of the characters. I've always seen the story as a bunch of important people who all think that they, and they alone, know what was best for everyone else. And as such, they usually don't pay attention to, or try to kill all who believe differently. This goes for the Two River folk too.

To add to this, Jordan, more than any other writer I've read to date, added so many human factors into the characters that there is a huge amount of miscommunication. One main character won't tell another main character something that may be important because they don't want to look like a fool by stating the obvious, or they don't think the other person needs to know, or even it just didn't come to mind. As a result you get a good number of main characters all striving for the same goal, but blockading each other because of miscommunication.
"Don't argue with ignorance. And when you argue with me, that's all you get!" Mike

Maxonennis’ soliloquy on Frog relations: “How can I bake the hall in the candle of her brain?”

DrakeSparda

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Re: WOT Help
« Reply #83 on: December 12, 2008, 03:04:18 PM »
(Slight spoiler alert!)

It's the moral integrity of the Two Rivers characters that kept me reading all the way to the end.  My biggest complaint about RJ's world is that he never explains where this comes from and why they (Two Rivers folk) seem to have a foundational sense of right and wrong and almost no one else that they encounter really does, except the Tinkers and a few others.  In the real world, there is some kind of codified belief system behind most societies who honor women and children and place a high value on all life in general.  I don't believe it occurs in a vacuum.  


I don't think its a thing that really needs to be explained.  Two Rivers is a very remote farm community.  Traditionally, communities that has less exposure to the harshness of most societies, tend to have higher moral standards, just because of the fact they are not forced to push those standards for various reasons.  The people in the bigger cities and more populated areas have had to deal with bandits, thieves, and the dark one's agents for years.  This forces those people to push what they would normally do.  In example, if your life is constantly threatened by a human.  Even if you resist at first and refuse to get rid of the problem, after awhile most people will cave, and do the dirty deed.  This then snowballs as more and more morals are broken.  The Two Rivers folk never really had to deal with this.  They only had to worry about a few bandits and maybe some wolves.  Which the Town Guard could take care of.  They did not have to worry about someone stabbing them in the back.  This makes them more trusting, and usually people that trust more, have higher moral standards.  Notice, the Dark One (I was gonna say a diff name, but that would be a spoiler for JoeC) had to send (insert Dark Friend name here, since I don't remember when it was revealed who was the DF) to find the Ta'veren, which makes me think there weren't any DFs in the Two Rivers.  Perhaps showing not only the high moral standard but the remoteness as well.  Such a remote place would not be of any use for the DO.

Basically I am saying that their location, and interaction with the outside world forges their habits, and traits.

mtbikemom

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Re: WOT Help
« Reply #84 on: December 12, 2008, 10:13:59 PM »
The people in the bigger cities and more populated areas have had to deal with bandits, thieves, and the dark one's agents for years.  This forces those people to push what they would normally do. 

Ah, that suggests that people, if left to their own devices and with minimal stresses in their environment, are basically good.  I don't believe that is true, so the debate ends here if you do.  :-*

I believe RJ revealed a similar unspoken premise, conscious or not, that the corrupting nature of power/authority, not to mention notice by the DO, and the intrinsic evil of big-city life are what's missing from the isolated Two Rivers society.  My offering here is this: the intrinsic and abiding goodness of a group of people should be explained, it is not natural.  It is a common omission leading to weak character development in many genres of literature, but is more glaring in fantasy because of the tendency to portray good vs. evil, which requires defining them and, hopefully, explaining motivation.

RJ was very good at portraying the ill effects of following various faulty belief systems, though.  And the problems adhering to a "good" one that seems ridiculous to everyone but its followers.  He just forgot to give his main characters a basis for their collective morality. 

My beef is mainly that religion is largely ignored in most of fantasy, including Tolkien who revealed how impersonal his own deity was to him by having (?) throw an "angel" or two into Middle Earth and hoping for the best.  This is a problem with our culture in general.  Almost everyone wants to be their own god and that person, as an author, writes worlds without benevolent creator or religion.  These worlds are as empty as the lives of people without faith in something better than themselves.  We all worship something...

Mr. Sanderson's worlds are much more compelling because of his more-careful understanding of human nature than is commonly found.  I am enjoying that as I read.

mtlhddoc2

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Re: WOT Help
« Reply #85 on: December 12, 2008, 11:34:39 PM »
"These worlds are as empty as the lives of people without faith in something better than themselves.  We all worship something"

This is one of the biggest myths perpetuated by religion in general. "faith" is basically a "fill-in-the-blank" reconciliation for not having all the facts. Those of us who choose not to fill in the blanks can be as inherently good or bad, as people who believe in a deity. I am an athiest. And let me tell you, my life is full, not empty. I give and receive lots of love, from my children, my wife, my family. I am not some empty drug addicted husk simply because i do not beileve in a higher power. To suggest otherwise is insulting. And I can guarantee, an athiest has touched your life for the better at some point in your life, and you left him or her, not knowing their beliefs, thinking, "wow, what a wonderful person that was."

Reaves

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Re: WOT Help
« Reply #86 on: December 13, 2008, 01:12:44 AM »
My beef is mainly that religion is largely ignored in most of fantasy, including Tolkien who revealed how impersonal his own deity was to him by having (?) throw an "angel" or two into Middle Earth and hoping for the best. 

I guess you've never read his other books? He did write more than just The Lord of the Rings in that world, you know. The Silmarillion goes extremely in depth to God (Illuvatar) and the angels, far more than Sanderson does (so far). You should read it.

He did not put religion into the Lord of the Rings because he thought it would cheapen it. From what I've read of what he said, I think he believed it would be "preachy." I agree to a point.

He did however give clear indication in The Lord of the Rings that there is a "higher power" and a force for good. Not religion, but belief.
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RJF: "AHA! You fell victim to one of the classic blunders! The most famous is never get involved in a land war in Cairhien, but only slightly less well-known is this: never go in against a warder when he is only the distraction! Get him Rand! Buzzzzzzz!

maxonennis

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Re: WOT Help
« Reply #87 on: December 13, 2008, 04:33:00 AM »
Okay, this is thread hijacking, and we’re getting way off topic, but…

I have a friend who’s read Tolkien on Tolkien, and he said that in it Tolkien constantly reiterated that he hated symbolism thought out his autobiograph. I don’t think for one moment that tLotR is religious in the least, or meant to be taken as religious.

Also, I’d hate to see this thread become a religious debate…That wasn’t its intent.
"Don't argue with ignorance. And when you argue with me, that's all you get!" Mike

Maxonennis’ soliloquy on Frog relations: “How can I bake the hall in the candle of her brain?”

mtlhddoc2

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Re: WOT Help
« Reply #88 on: December 13, 2008, 04:49:23 AM »
max, I know that was not the intent, I just cannot sit idly by while being insulted simply for my beliefs (or lack there of). I am now waiting for the general excuse "I didnt know there were athiests here" from the insultant.

douglas

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Re: WOT Help
« Reply #89 on: December 13, 2008, 06:00:00 AM »
He just forgot to give his main characters a basis for their collective morality.
How about cultural inertia?  The Two Rivers was founded by some strongly moral people.  They raised their kids to have similar morals, their kids raised their grandkids to have similar morals, their grandkids raised...

I'm hardly an expert on the subject, but it seems quite reasonable to me for the morals of a small isolated group to remain stable through quite a number of generations.  I imagine any set of ethics that is overwhelmingly dominant can easily set up a reinforcing feedback loop to sustain that ethical standard, so all you really need is a group of like-minded highly moral individuals to found the place and enough isolation to keep outside influences very weak.  For a community as small as the Two Rivers is, such a founding group wouldn't be all that hard to come by.