Author Topic: Gay rights  (Read 8660 times)

Peter Ahlstrom

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Re: Gay rights
« Reply #15 on: November 02, 2008, 05:44:05 AM »
Yes, "gay rights" as a phrase does include all those things. Prop 8, which prompted GreenMonsta to make this thread, only defines marriage as between a man and a woman; it does not affect anything like job discrimination, which is already illegal.

Also, there are a number of Christians who accept that the Bible says homosexuality is a sin, yet don't believe (because of the separation of church and state) that the government should prohibit same-sex marriage just because of religions that believe homosexuality is wrong.

I also am not keen on the government enforcing the laws of religion. But I believe there are non-religious, societal reasons to protect the traditional man+woman definition of marriage.
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CthulhuKefka

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Re: Gay rights
« Reply #16 on: November 02, 2008, 07:52:14 AM »
Besides the ever ongoing "family/child raising" debate, what other non-religious, societal reasons are there to define it between a man and a woman only? I'm not trying to be snide, I'm just curious.

There really is no difference between homosexuals and heterosexuals other than the obvious.

Peter Ahlstrom

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Re: Gay rights
« Reply #17 on: November 03, 2008, 12:54:43 AM »
Can you think of any reason society should give any kind of status to couples that has nothing to do with children?

There isn't anything that I can think of. This whole issue is about children.

Yes, some couples don't choose to have children, but the the existence of exceptions to the ideal doesn't mean the ideal should be eliminated.
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The Jade Knight

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Re: Gay rights
« Reply #18 on: November 03, 2008, 12:39:24 PM »
Most people's perspectives on marriage today is terribly limited:

In most early societies, marriage was a terribly informal thing—well into the Middle Ages, all that was required for a marriage to be legal and binding was consent; if two individuals said the words (initially, even without witness), they were married.  There was no further governmental oversight of the matter.  The Catholic Church, however, got more and more involved in mediating marriages, ensuring that a certain separation of consanguinuity was upheld, as well as ensuring that societal approval had been granting before a couple consumated a marriage.

All of this dealt directly with ensuring that children had fathers who were not too closely related to mothers, and in guarding the virginal chastity of women.  It was not for a long time after this that the State took the role of the Church (in approving and mediating marriages) upon itself—and in this case, it was primarily for the administrative purposes of handling parentage and succession (in particular, Feudal rulers were keenly interested in how property was disseminated among their vassals).

From a historical perspective, the entire function of legalized marriage is to preserve the state by ensuring proper endogamy and/or exogamy (for religious reasons, fundamentally, but this is almost certainly directly related to conceivable children), and that children will be properly raised, cared for, and educated (the latter being less of a concern today), and, in societies where it matters (ours does not particularly), to ensure sexual monogamy.

None of these concerns appear to apply to homosexual marriage, which is something which was never considered in times long past, even in societies where homosexuality was widespread:  none of the ancients could even coneive of the use for such a thing.
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Miyabi

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Re: Gay rights
« Reply #19 on: November 03, 2008, 07:38:27 PM »
My main problem with your societal-reasons is that those were and are based off of Christian definition of what marriage is.  When the government decided that they could start taxing and regulating marriage (which had ALWAYS been a religious endeavor until the government took over.) they took their definition from what Christianity said about it.  So this whole societal-reason is has a religious basis which shouldn't be defined by the government. 

I personally don't think the government should have a say about marriage at all, because it is a "spiritual" connecting of two people.
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firstRainbowRose

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Re: Gay rights
« Reply #20 on: November 03, 2008, 08:33:57 PM »
I used to have the opinion of "I don't really care" about this situation.  But then one of my friends sent me this e-mail, and it really opened my eyes.  Those of you who aren't LDS won't care as much, but you can also see how it might come back to effect you guys as well:

Quote
Dear family and friends,

I had a very disturbing experience yesterday that I would like to share with those of you that live outside of California (or outside of the San Francisco Bay Area).
 
This weekend we have stake conference. Our stake conference always begins with a stake temple session on Friday or Thursday night.

Early Friday morning I received a call from the second counselor in our bishopric to let me know that there would be numerous protesters outside the temple, and to remind everyone to stay calm and to drive carefully. The beautiful Oakland Temple is located right across the bay from San Francisco , very close to the city of Berkeley.  Apparently the opposition to proposition 8, the amendment that seeks to make marriage in CA between a man and a woman again, has realized the deep involvement of the church and begun to protest right outside of the temple and harass temple patrons. The fastest way to get to the temple from our house is to take the 680 freeway, but the exit is a bit tricky.  The off ramp is extremely short and straight uphill. You then make an almost blind left turn, an immediate right and another left into the parking lot. As we approached the off ramp, I realized there would be trouble. There was a backup onto the freeway from cars stalled on the off ramp.
 
As we moved forward inches at a time, we realized this was due to a large group of loud protesters who were standing on both sides of the street, yelling, screaming and waving signs.  When we got to the top of the offramp, ready to make our turn, one protester jumped out right in front of our car. It took my husband all his self control to carefully maneuver around him to the left and proceed to the temple. I tried not to listen to all they were shouting at us, but I was shaking as I got to the temple front door. Several of the sisters, especially the ones driving on their own, were crying (which made me snap out of it and go into RS President mode to comfort them). Later, as I was sitting in the perfect quiet of the chapel, I couldn't help but think of Lehi's dream, and the people who mocked the Saints from the big
spacious building but 'we heeded them not.' It was a truly surreal experience, I'd never thougth that I would have to go through an angry crowd to get to the temple. As we left late at night, the protesters had dispersed, temple security (who all looked very large and Tongan) stood by the gates. I never saw a single police man.

In a recent LDS Sacrament meeting in California , the focus was on Amendment 8. (The gay marriage issue.) one of the speakers who was an LDS judge in the area, had statistics that were 'mind blowing'.

For example, in Boston, MA (where gay marriages are now legal,) the Catholic Charities have closed their doors because the state has required them to allow adoptions to same sex couples, and they refused.  They are a large and worthwhile charity with great power in the state and they were overruled.

A Methodist church has lost their tax exempt status because the minister refused to perform a marriage of a same sex couple (they were not of his congregation).

A physician who refused to do fertility treatments on a same sex couple because of religious reasons was sued, lost and the state is requiring him to treat everyone as equals.

Our schools will be required to teach, starting in kindergarten, that marriages make up many different combinations. The consequences are horrible.

Directly tied into ALL of this is our right to continue to go to the Temple.  If Gay Marriage is supported by the government, then those who are same-sex married, who are 'LDS' and legally recognized as married by the government, can sue to be married in the temple.  It is my opinion that the church will not bend on this issue, and our rights to go to the temple will be in jeopardy.

AND goodbye to those religious tax-deductions. Tithing, fast offerings, etc. We will lose our tax-exemption status if the government legally forces the church to support same-sex marriage'

(snip)

Another friend says that her relatives in Sweden are even watching what goes on in California.  Friends in Canada are watching. The whole world is watching to see what happens.

Now, I don't mean to offend anyone by posting this, I just thought it would be something for people to think about.
"The custom of royalty in referring to oneself is to naturally employ the royal 'we'.  We are very happy, we are very sad, we are bored and suffer from ennui.  For a royal prince there's no such word as 'me', It's always 'we'.  So rightfully I should be two or three, don't you agree?"

Miyabi

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Re: Gay rights
« Reply #21 on: November 03, 2008, 08:48:22 PM »
I used to have the opinion of "I don't really care" about this situation.  But then one of my friends sent me this e-mail, and it really opened my eyes.  Those of you who aren't LDS won't care as much, but you can also see how it might come back to effect you guys as well:

Quote
Dear family and friends,

I had a very disturbing experience yesterday that I would like to share with those of you that live outside of California (or outside of the San Francisco Bay Area).
 
This weekend we have stake conference. Our stake conference always begins with a stake temple session on Friday or Thursday night.

Early Friday morning I received a call from the second counselor in our bishopric to let me know that there would be numerous protesters outside the temple, and to remind everyone to stay calm and to drive carefully. The beautiful Oakland Temple is located right across the bay from San Francisco , very close to the city of Berkeley.  Apparently the opposition to proposition 8, the amendment that seeks to make marriage in CA between a man and a woman again, has realized the deep involvement of the church and begun to protest right outside of the temple and harass temple patrons. The fastest way to get to the temple from our house is to take the 680 freeway, but the exit is a bit tricky.  The off ramp is extremely short and straight uphill. You then make an almost blind left turn, an immediate right and another left into the parking lot. As we approached the off ramp, I realized there would be trouble. There was a backup onto the freeway from cars stalled on the off ramp.
 
As we moved forward inches at a time, we realized this was due to a large group of loud protesters who were standing on both sides of the street, yelling, screaming and waving signs.  When we got to the top of the offramp, ready to make our turn, one protester jumped out right in front of our car. It took my husband all his self control to carefully maneuver around him to the left and proceed to the temple. I tried not to listen to all they were shouting at us, but I was shaking as I got to the temple front door. Several of the sisters, especially the ones driving on their own, were crying (which made me snap out of it and go into RS President mode to comfort them). Later, as I was sitting in the perfect quiet of the chapel, I couldn't help but think of Lehi's dream, and the people who mocked the Saints from the big
spacious building but 'we heeded them not.' It was a truly surreal experience, I'd never thougth that I would have to go through an angry crowd to get to the temple. As we left late at night, the protesters had dispersed, temple security (who all looked very large and Tongan) stood by the gates. I never saw a single police man.

In a recent LDS Sacrament meeting in California , the focus was on Amendment 8. (The gay marriage issue.) one of the speakers who was an LDS judge in the area, had statistics that were 'mind blowing'.

For example, in Boston, MA (where gay marriages are now legal,) the Catholic Charities have closed their doors because the state has required them to allow adoptions to same sex couples, and they refused.  They are a large and worthwhile charity with great power in the state and they were overruled.

A Methodist church has lost their tax exempt status because the minister refused to perform a marriage of a same sex couple (they were not of his congregation).

A physician who refused to do fertility treatments on a same sex couple because of religious reasons was sued, lost and the state is requiring him to treat everyone as equals.

Our schools will be required to teach, starting in kindergarten, that marriages make up many different combinations. The consequences are horrible.

Directly tied into ALL of this is our right to continue to go to the Temple.  If Gay Marriage is supported by the government, then those who are same-sex married, who are 'LDS' and legally recognized as married by the government, can sue to be married in the temple.  It is my opinion that the church will not bend on this issue, and our rights to go to the temple will be in jeopardy.

AND goodbye to those religious tax-deductions. Tithing, fast offerings, etc. We will lose our tax-exemption status if the government legally forces the church to support same-sex marriage'

(snip)

Another friend says that her relatives in Sweden are even watching what goes on in California.  Friends in Canada are watching. The whole world is watching to see what happens.

Now, I don't mean to offend anyone by posting this, I just thought it would be something for people to think about.

I think that the government is overstepping its bound BY FAR in doing many of these things.  I don't think they should be able to force any religious organization to do anything.  This is ridiculous that the government would do that simply because the RELIGIOUS group chose to not support what the GOVERNMENT wanted to do.  We really need to work on bringing Antidisestablishmentarianism.
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GreenMonsta

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Re: Gay rights
« Reply #22 on: November 03, 2008, 09:11:56 PM »
Ok that stinks. No one should be harassed on their way to Church. I know it was horrible and I feel bad about it but we all have to understand that extremist exist on both sides. Also I'm not trying to cut your article short or anything like that but the Boston Ma. area where gay marriages are now legal has lost alot of its support, money and followers due to many different things over the last 10 years. Following the church scandal with Cardinal Bernard Law many parishes were actually closed by the Archdiocese having nothing to do with gay marriage. I'm sure that it does effect the church in some way but it would be closed minded to think that gay marriage is the cause of the decline of the church.

Again I am sorry you had to deal with that situation.
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Peter Ahlstrom

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Re: Gay rights
« Reply #23 on: November 03, 2008, 09:35:15 PM »
Some of those warnings are a bit hyperbolic. I think that one about a Methodist minister is a confusion of the Methodist summer camp story (the minister was not forced to perform a wedding; they were forced to allow a wedding in a pavilion they considered a religious building). Also while the church may get sued to allow gay temple weddings, I don't think the suits would be successful in court. At least I hope they wouldn't—but in a few decades, who knows? I think there is validity to the slippery slope argument.

Also the ads the No people have on TV right now are so manipulative and misleading. It's going to be very close.
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dawncawley

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Re: Gay rights
« Reply #24 on: November 03, 2008, 11:58:05 PM »
I agree this is a slippery slope. I also agree that the government doesn't have the right to dictate to a religious organization what it must or must not do. That is part of the separation of church and state. Neither one gets to tell the other what the must or must not do. Religion doesn't dictate to government, and government doesn't dictate to religion.


CthulhuKefka

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Re: Gay rights
« Reply #25 on: November 04, 2008, 01:16:21 AM »
Some of those warnings are a bit hyperbolic. I think that one about a Methodist minister is a confusion of the Methodist summer camp story (the minister was not forced to perform a wedding; they were forced to allow a wedding in a pavilion they considered a religious building). Also while the church may get sued to allow gay temple weddings, I don't think the suits would be successful in court. At least I hope they wouldn't—but in a few decades, who knows? I think there is validity to the slippery slope argument.

Also the ads the No people have on TV right now are so manipulative and misleading. It's going to be very close.

And on the other hand, many major religious groups have donated obscene amounts of money to support Yes on Prop 8. Yes, people have a right to donate where they please, but is religion influencing government? For the most part, opponents of same-sex marriages are against it for religious reasons. It shouldn't influence government and laws. Let's swing that pendulum the other way. Is polygamy all right then? I see nothing but hypocrisy for someone to actively support polygamy but denounce same-sex marriage.

firstRainbowRose

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Re: Gay rights
« Reply #26 on: November 04, 2008, 01:21:02 AM »
I'm not sure if you're talking about current beliefs or past beliefs, but let me give a couple of facts about polygamy.

First and formost: We no longer pratice polygamy.  We have it outlawed, as does everyone.

Second:  When it was praticed and supported there were some more logical points behind it.  The satistics were something like two or three women to every man.  So it was something more for protection and such because back then it was socially unacceptable for women to live in a house with children alone.  They were taken care of by the family of their dead husbands, or by a second husband.  So it was to help protect and support the women that was the main focus.
"The custom of royalty in referring to oneself is to naturally employ the royal 'we'.  We are very happy, we are very sad, we are bored and suffer from ennui.  For a royal prince there's no such word as 'me', It's always 'we'.  So rightfully I should be two or three, don't you agree?"

Peter Ahlstrom

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Re: Gay rights
« Reply #27 on: November 04, 2008, 02:03:27 AM »
For perspective, the LDS church stopped practicing polygamy in 1890, over a hundred years ago. But I think you're overstating the statistical case there, firstRainbowRose. The ratio was never that high.

The Book of Mormon makes it clear that God is generally against polygamy, since there's abuse potential built into the system, but that he reserves the right to command it to happen when he wants a population to expand more rapidly. He commanded this in the early days of the Old Testament patriarchs and the tribes of Israel, and he commanded it again in the early days of the LDS church. When he says no, though, he means no. (And as same-sex marriage has nothing to do with population expansion, among other reasons, he would never command it.)

Cranberry—as far as I know, it is generally not religious groups that have donated to the Yes on Prop 8 campaign, but individual people who are members of those religious groups. The LDS church has not used church tithing dollars to donate to the Yes campaign. That money is coming from individual people or businesses that people own, not from the church.

If people can't donate to campaigns based on their beliefs, under what terms should they be able to donate to campaigns? The No campaign has had a ton of money donated to it as well.
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The Jade Knight

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Re: Gay rights
« Reply #28 on: November 04, 2008, 02:27:56 AM »
My main problem with your societal-reasons is that those were and are based off of Christian definition of what marriage is.  When the government decided that they could start taxing and regulating marriage (which had ALWAYS been a religious endeavor until the government took over.) they took their definition from what Christianity said about it.  So this whole societal-reason is has a religious basis which shouldn't be defined by the government. 

I personally don't think the government should have a say about marriage at all, because it is a "spiritual" connecting of two people.


You seem to have misunderstood me!  I'm not only talking about societal reasons in Western Europe including the Medieval period (heavily based on the Christian concept of marriage), but also including the pre-Christian period in Rome and Greece.  It shows a lack of historical understanding to blame this on Christianity; Greece and (pre-Christian) Rome were quite clear on the matter as well.  Rome had an extraordinarily complex legal system, and marriage was a significant part of that (in fact, our legal system today is based, more or less, off of the Roman one).  Marriage in Rome was strictly between a single man and a single woman.  I personally believe that it is Roman culture which has associated monogamy with Christianity (Christianity was based out of Rome for centuries)—Jewish tradition had nothing against polygamy and nothing in Christian scripture explicitly condemns polygamy, but Roman tradition, on the other hand, did condemn polygamy.

Homosexual marriage would have defeated the entire Greek and Roman purposes for marriage, which (as abundant evidence shows) was to produce and educate children in order to strengthen the state.  In Rome, at least (I am less familiar with ancient Greek customs), marriage was very much a legal matter, though the state did not keep a record of marriages (leaving that to individual families)—but consanguinuity, for example, was defined by the Roman government, and not by any religion, even for those marriages which were explicitly religious (confarreatio, etc.)!  Among the Celts and Germans, religion was largely a personal affair: for some religious, for some not.

After the fall of the Roman Empire, Roman laws (and definitions of marriage) fell into disuse, and the "barbarian" practice became standard—that of marriage being simply the agreement of two individuals to raise children together.  Eventually, however, to protect women who thought they were married to a man who later denied having married them, the Christian (Catholic) Church stepped in and required record-keeping and witnesses.  Eventually, in the modern Era, national governments took over the work of record-keeping.  However, modern definitions of marriage are no more similar to "Christian" ones than they are to Greek, Roman, or even ancient Chinese ones: marriage as between two people capable of producing children together was universal, and had little inherently to do with religion: the Catholic church got involved, largely, to protect women and reduce bastardhood (a bastard's life was particularly hard in a Feudal society), though trying to ensure exogamy was also included in the Church's efforts.
« Last Edit: November 04, 2008, 04:54:06 AM by The Generous Knight »
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Miyabi

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Re: Gay rights
« Reply #29 on: November 04, 2008, 06:43:20 AM »
You seem to have misunderstood me!  I'm not only talking about societal reasons in Western Europe including the Medieval period (heavily based on the Christian concept of marriage), but also including the pre-Christian period in Rome and Greece. 
I was actually targeting Ook with my comments, but I found many of your arguments interesting, but whereas you are unfamiliar with ancient Greece, I just so happen to be a bit familiar with it.  Ancient Greece  'Allowed' homosexuality and it can even be seen depicted in some of their art.

Your also forgetting that Rome fell and from what I've read a good portion of the tensions that lead to the event were caused by the government and the people in the government having too much power. ;)
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