Author Topic: Seven years later...  (Read 9381 times)

Miyabi

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Re: Seven years later...
« Reply #15 on: September 13, 2008, 07:31:28 AM »
Miyabi, I think part of the problem is that you're reading things in to my post that weren't ever there. First of all, I wasn't saying that 9/11 is somehow *more* important than any other tragedy. I wasn't claiming that 9/11 is the only reason why we're in a war with Iraq. NOWHERE did I say or imply, "I'm feeling kinda bummed out because it's been seven years since the terrorist attacks on 9/11, which of course were waaaay more important and outrageous than the bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki." Nope. Not at all. All I was trying to convey was that this event is closer to some of us simply because it happened *here* within *my* lifetime.

That is not to diminish the importance--or impact--of †the bomb-dropping on Japan in WWII. Personally, I believe that the decision to bomb those cities was fundamentally wrong. It was evil. Just as the attack on Pearl Harbor was; just as the attack on the Twin Towers and the Pentagon were. BUT, again, yesterday wasn't the anniversary of those attacks now, was it?

What's more, I really don't think there is no easy answer to *why* those men planned and executed the 9/11 attacks. But here's the difficulty I have with caring WHY they did it. The WHY, whatever it may be, really cannot justify the WHAT, in my opinion.

...on a globular scale.† I am referring to the bombings of Nagasaki and Hiroshima.

Um, "globular scale"? You mean "global," right?
Globular - worldwide; global.

I was just saying that we take a day to mourn something that relatively is a minuscule event in world history.

As pertaining to why : Imagine someone a hundred times more powerful than you comes and takes what has been yours for over a thousand years.  They then give it to someone else and tell you if you try to take it back they will kill you.  No matter what the people who have that thing do they are right.  So now they are taking more of your stuff and killing your friends and family.  Now you see an opening to maybe try and get the larger power to listen to you. . . . you take the opportunity right?

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schneb

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Re: Seven years later...
« Reply #16 on: September 14, 2008, 05:08:57 AM »
Globular - worldwide; global.

I was just saying that we take a day to mourn something that relatively is a minuscule event in world history.

As pertaining to why : Imagine someone a hundred times more powerful than you comes and takes what has been yours for over a thousand years.† They then give it to someone else and tell you if you try to take it back they will kill you.† No matter what the people who have that thing do they are right.† So now they are taking more of your stuff and killing your friends and family.† Now you see an opening to maybe try and get the larger power to listen to you. . . . you take the opportunity right?



Are you saying that the creation of the state of Israel caused 9/11?† If so, this has to be one of the biggest stretches I've seen so far.† If not, please clarify the event you're referencing.† †That area has been fought over almost continually for as long as we have recorded history.

Miyabi

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Re: Seven years later...
« Reply #17 on: September 14, 2008, 09:26:17 AM »
That is EXACTLY what I'm saying.† Read the history on it, and I'm not talking U.S. history or British history or Israeli history.† Read the rest of the Arabian nation's view on the matter.† Britain and the U.S. TOOK that land from the Arabians and gave it to the Jewish people THEN told the Arabians that if they tried to take it back we'd basically nuke the hell out of them.† Read their history, their news, their blogs, their feeling and you'll find that they hated the U.S. for it and wanted us to pay, considering we supported Israel no matter what they did to the people in that area and told them if they retaliated we'd retaliate with a hundred thousand times the force, if they wanted justice they basically had to attack the U.S.
« Last Edit: September 14, 2008, 09:28:02 AM by miyabi »
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Necroben

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Re: Seven years later...
« Reply #18 on: September 14, 2008, 04:56:14 PM »
† Read their history, their news, their blogs, their feeling and you'll find that they hated the U.S. for it and wanted us to pay, considering we supported Israel no matter what they did to the people in that area and told them if they retaliated we'd retaliate with a hundred thousand times the force, if they wanted justice they basically had to attack the U.S.

The thing is, while we supported Israel's founding, Israel has defended herself.† Most conflicts have been settled rather decisively by Israel.† There has been little or no outside interference in these few conflicts.† The thing that gets me though is: Did they get justice for their actions?† Are there people/nations rallying around feeling sorry for them?† And most anti-Americanism started when we stopped sending them money.† So is it that as long as we pay out, everythings alright, but stop, and now they hate us?† I find it very hard to pity extortionists.

While it seems that their motivations are political, these extremists then compound the issue by mixing religion into the whole conflagration.† Arabia has been a hot spot for ages as "schneb" said. The people as a whole don't seem to know or even care whats going on.
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Miyabi

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Re: Seven years later...
« Reply #19 on: September 14, 2008, 06:41:58 PM »
It DID make their problems worse, but they did it in a last ditch effort to try and gain some kind of honor back.† You have to also understand their religion as well as the sociopolitical situation that goes on there from day to day.

EDIT:  As a side note, I can't stand extremists.  Also, I'm not saying it isn't BAD that 9/11 happened.  I'm just saying we need to break away from this tunnel vision we all have that makes us hypocrites.  By supporting Israel in the way we did we caused hundreds of thousands of Arabians to die and think nothing of it, then when a few thousand people at home die we get all pissy.  (Also note: I had distant relatives who died in the towers, so I DO feel for them, but that's not the point I'm trying to make.)  Our society has been built upon us only seeing things in one way from one perspective.  We need to break away from that and become better than our forebears.  This will cause us to understand other people and decrease the amount of violence in the world.
« Last Edit: September 14, 2008, 07:08:12 PM by miyabi »
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Skar

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Re: Seven years later...
« Reply #20 on: September 14, 2008, 08:01:29 PM »
Quote
By supporting Israel in the way we did we caused hundreds of thousands of Arabians to die and think nothing of it,

Bullshit. The wars Israel has been in, from its inception as a country, have all been started by the surrounding Arab states.  Israel kicked their asses with our help on every occasion, thank heavens.  You want to talk about people harming Arabs?  Look at those same surrounding states and how they treat the Palestinian refugees not to mention their own citizens.

I am by no means saying that Israel has lily-white hands. They do not.  However, until the jihadists get over the idea that blowing up women and children on purpose is acceptable behavior they can negotiate with a rifle round.

As for Hiroshima and Nagasaki?  Those were humanitarian acts. They killed fewer people by an order of magnitude than would have died had we had to invade the home island in our efforts to end the war.
*************************

I remember 9/11. The thing that bothers me today is the language a lot of people use in their remembrances.  It is important that we remember the day and the events.  But most people say we should 'honor' the dead and their sacrifice. For what?  The dead from the towers did nothing but show up to work that day they sacrificed nothing.  We should be remembering who did it, so that we can attempt to ensure that it never happens again. 

7 years of success on that front so far.
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Miyabi

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Re: Seven years later...
« Reply #21 on: September 14, 2008, 08:17:53 PM »
I am by no means saying that Israel has lily-white hands. They do not.† However, until the jihadists get over the idea that blowing up women and children on purpose is acceptable behavior they can negotiate with a rifle round.
I strongly agree on the point of the whole concept of Jihad being extremist and I don't agree with it at all.† I think is probably one of the worst concepts to have ever been brought about.† I do however feel that a MAJOR part of why the attack the U.S. was BECAUSE we supported Israel who they were fighting in their Jihad.† I'm not saying that they were right I'm just saying that our support of Israel is what caused them to want to attack us in the manner they did.

As for Hiroshima and Nagasaki?† Those were humanitarian acts. They killed fewer people by an order of magnitude than would have died had we had to invade the home island in our efforts to end the war.

But if we hadn't stuck our nose in the middle of their issues with China and completely blockaded any trade going in and out of Japan they wouldn't have attacked us, then we wouldn't have had to retaliate against their retaliation.† You have to think.† We would have done the same thing if someone blocked all trade from entering the U.S.† I personally am just not a fan of the whole "big brother" policy.† We need to back off of other people's problems and worry about our own.† If we hadn't been so adamant about supporting Israel then they Arabian nations wouldn't have hated us as badly, if we had left Japan and China alone to finish their feuding that had been going on since WELL BEFORE the inception of the U.S. then they wouldn't have attacked Perl Harbor and we wouldn't have had to attack using Nukes.


I remember 9/11. The thing that bothers me today is the language a lot of people use in their remembrances.† It is important that we remember the day and the events.† But most people say we should 'honor' the dead and their sacrifice. For what?† The dead from the towers did nothing but show up to work that day they sacrificed nothing.
Agreed


EDIT:  I have put more than my two cents in on this topic.  I don't think anyone will agree with me no matter how much I argue with them on it.  We may not agree on this particular topic, but we may on others.  So I hope this doesn't cause issues with anyone.  I will withdraw from the topic for now.  I don't want to be hated over one issue I don't agree upon with people.  I'll still read and post if I feel there is a significant point to be made.  Thanks for listening.
« Last Edit: September 14, 2008, 08:41:11 PM by miyabi »
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Peter Ahlstrom

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Re: Seven years later...
« Reply #22 on: September 14, 2008, 11:29:20 PM »
Um, that's a really odd way to look at the reason for Japan attacking Pearl Harbor. Japan attacked Pearl Harbor because they wanted to take over the entire world. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hakko_ichiu

Yes, they didn't want to call their 1937 invasion of China a war because they liked the U.S.'s steel exports, but it was a war. Japan had been taking over territory for decades before that, starting with the first Sino-Japanese war in 1894 when Japan took over Taiwan and Korea. Japan wanted to rule the world, plain and simple.
« Last Edit: September 14, 2008, 11:31:11 PM by Ookla The Mok »
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Miyabi

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Re: Seven years later...
« Reply #23 on: September 14, 2008, 11:31:46 PM »
They did, but at that point in time the reason they attacked us was because we blockaded them and they had no resources.  They would have eventually moved to us, but not at that time.  Did you ever see Tora Tora Tora Ook?  I loved that movie. 

AGH, I really am done posting here now as to avoid being hated.
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Peter Ahlstrom

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Re: Seven years later...
« Reply #24 on: September 14, 2008, 11:41:15 PM »
The U.S. stopped selling Japan oil in July 1941 after their invasion of French Indochina, but they weren't blockaded. Though apparently Roosevelt wanted to blockade Japan in January 1941 and Admiral Richardson refused, leading to his resignation. Japan may have been pushed into attacking the U.S., but to say that if we left Japan alone they would have finished their feuding with China and left us alone is really stretching things. Japan would have finished their feuding by taking over any land that touched the western shore of the Pacific, and then would have moved east. Once they'd taken over enough land they would have had all the resources they wanted; Indonesia, for instance, was a big petroleum producer.

It is interesting to think about how the war would have turned out differently if the U.S. had not gotten involved in the Pacific at this time. Does anyone know if an alternate history using that idea has been written? The U.S. didn't get into the European war until they declared war on Japan. Would that start have been greatly delayed as well? We also know now that the Nazi nuclear program was nowhere close to completion and they did not throw nearly enough resources behind it like the U.S. did with the Manhattan project. There are so many other ways WWII could have turned outóbut I don't think it's practical to say that any other scenario would not have also ended with enormous numbers of dead. In both theaters the enemy was a country that didn't know where to stop but would have just kept conquering forever. Or maybe the Soviets would have been able to win the war on their ownóand then where would we have ended up, with the Soviets having taken over all of Europe? There are no easy answers.
« Last Edit: September 14, 2008, 11:56:22 PM by Ookla The Mok »
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GorgonlaVacaTremendo

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Re: Seven years later...
« Reply #25 on: September 15, 2008, 06:59:09 AM »
Miyabi, you should never be afraid to say what you think because you're afraid it will affect how people think of you.  You think what you think, and you have every right to express it.  I don't think anybody here will dislike you just because you disagree with them or they disagree with you.  And if they do, in all honesty, you probably don't need a person like that to like you, anyway.  People of differing views should be able to consult each other MORE frequently and fervently than people who share the same view--it leads t0 more enlightenment and a farther expansion of you base set of ideas.  I mean, if you look at the thread "Question", it's blatantly obvious Ookla and I completely disagree.  I don't dislike Ookla any more for it, and I don't get the impression Ookla dislikes me any more because of it (and we were talking about a VERY touchy subject).

That being said, you've essentially said in this thread the US had no right to get go into war with Japan because they weren't invading us.  The Nazis weren't invading us.  I think it's a pretty good thing that we went to war with them.

As for the issues with Israel and the Arabian Sub-Continent, whatever you might think the US has done to any of those countries, the fact is that the organizations and nations that get involved in actions like the attack on the Pentagon, and the attack on the Towers are headed by devious individuals.  When we were providing weapons to Afghanistan so they could repel the USSR, they weren't complaining.  The people in charge need an enemy to gain power, and the west matches the requirements for an enemy religiously, culturally and historically.  That doesn't mean it is historically justified, it just means that they have enough to move the masses.

Also, I find it somewhat amusing that you basically said, "We as a nation should act selfishly for self-preservation" in saying we shouldn't have gone to war with Japan because they weren't bugging us, and then you complain about things we do which are geared towards self-preservation, like creating a US-friendly state in the Middle East.  :-P.
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darxbane

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Re: Seven years later...
« Reply #26 on: September 15, 2008, 03:08:24 PM »
Another point to the Israel piece is that Israel had some of their homeland returned to them, not given to them.  I understand the allure with Isolationism, especially when those you help turn their back on you when you need them.  However, the world has become too small to pull back into our borders and let the world take care of itself.  We will be affected either way, and will have enemies either way.  I appreciate your opinion Miyabi, like Gorgon has said, disagreement and debate is vital for progress.  However, what is also vital is to learn from the disagreement. 
I wanted to write something profound here, but I couldn't think of anything.

Miyabi

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Re: Seven years later...
« Reply #27 on: September 15, 2008, 03:24:48 PM »
Thanks Gorg, Darx, it just seemed like everyone was telling me to shut up and go away so I was just doing that. ha ha. :)
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darxbane

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Re: Seven years later...
« Reply #28 on: September 15, 2008, 04:13:19 PM »
No worries, Miyabi.  I hope what we wrote about made sense to you.  Pearl Harbor and the A-Bombs should also never be forgotten.  We should regret the loss of life from Hiroshima and Nagasaki, but we should not regret the use of the two bombs, for they did save lives in the long run, not just in America and Japan, but in the world.  Pearl Harbor occurred because we felt invincible, no one would dare attack the great USA!  We should remember the cost of our hubris.  9/11 is a little different.  It showed us that we had become complacent with terrorism to the point where the smaller attacks (embassy in Africa, USS Cole, first World Trade Center bombing) were no longer affecting us.  We weren't fighting back, so our enemy got bolder and bolder.  We must never forget 9/11 because it reminds us that we do not live in a safe world, and if we walk around ignorant of that, the next attack could make 9/11 look like nothing.
I wanted to write something profound here, but I couldn't think of anything.

Miyabi

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Re: Seven years later...
« Reply #29 on: September 15, 2008, 06:21:31 PM »
No worries, Miyabi.† I hope what we wrote about made sense to you.† Pearl Harbor and the A-Bombs should also never be forgotten.† We should regret the loss of life from Hiroshima and Nagasaki, but we should not regret the use of the two bombs, for they did save lives in the long run, not just in America and Japan, but in the world.† Pearl Harbor occurred because we felt invincible, no one would dare attack the great USA!† We should remember the cost of our hubris.† 9/11 is a little different.† It showed us that we had become complacent with terrorism to the point where the smaller attacks (embassy in Africa, USS Cole, first World Trade Center bombing) were no longer affecting us.† We weren't fighting back, so our enemy got bolder and bolder.† We must never forget 9/11 because it reminds us that we do not live in a safe world, and if we walk around ignorant of that, the next attack could make 9/11 look like nothing.
I also think we need to learn to back off of other people's issues.  Like supporting the creation of Israel was one thing, but when we say we support them no matter what they do is overstretching our bounds.
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