Author Topic: I would like to announce!  (Read 48543 times)

Renoard

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Re: I would like to announce!
« Reply #495 on: July 09, 2009, 06:25:25 PM »
Electric transmission and motors are an inherently inefficient form of motive force.  Far too much of the generated or stored energy is lost as em and infrared.

Hybrids achieve the illusion of statistical efficiency by shutting off the gasoline motor during starts and stops, substituting inefficient electrical power but saving wasted fuel that would have been lost during idle cycles.  If you could start a gasoline engine and take off from a dead stop with just the press of an accelerator pedal and switch it off when ever you are coasting or at a complete stop.

Using solar and hydroelectric to generate the Hydrogen fuel, essentially moves the gas production into the same role as the electric motor and is more efficient net net.
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mtlhddoc2

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Re: I would like to announce!
« Reply #496 on: July 09, 2009, 06:51:29 PM »
that is true for plug in electric hybrids ren, but not for say, the Prius which uses friction and static electicity to charge the electric motor.

ryos

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Re: I would like to announce!
« Reply #497 on: July 09, 2009, 08:55:52 PM »
Electric transmission and motors are an inherently inefficient form of motive force. Far too much of the generated or stored energy is lost as em and infrared.

Hybrids achieve the illusion of statistical efficiency by shutting off the gasoline motor during starts and stops, substituting inefficient electrical power but saving wasted fuel that would have been lost during idle cycles. If you could start a gasoline engine and take off from a dead stop with just the press of an accelerator pedal and switch it off when ever you are coasting or at a complete stop.

Using solar and hydroelectric to generate the Hydrogen fuel, essentially moves the gas production into the same role as the electric motor and is more efficient net net.

Wow. What are you reading? Because, honestly, everything I'm reading says that this is entirely, 100% backwards. AC induction motors can get very efficient - above 95%. Brushless DC motors (cheaper and easier to design a drivetrain around) are around 80% efficient. The very best gasoline engines are around 30% efficient, with the best diesel engines hitting 40%. The cars most of us drive are lucky to hit 20% efficiency.

Hybrids are efficient because they enable the recovery of energy that is otherwise lost as heat in the brakes. They also provide low-rpm torque for acceleration, which is something ICE's are bad at, making the stop and go cycle more efficient. Most of them use the Atkinson cycle, which trades power for efficiency, and get away with it due to the electric assist.

In highway driving their advantages are less pronounced, but they still tend to do better because the gas engine doing the heavy lifting is smaller than it would be if unassisted by an electric motor.
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Renoard

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Re: I would like to announce!
« Reply #498 on: July 11, 2009, 06:00:35 PM »
Wow ryan, you must be using some pretty odd standards for efficiency that don't relate to real world.

But in real world terms:
In an electric car, when you burn calories of fuel to produce heat.  Heat is translated into mechanical energy via steam.  Mechanical energy is transformed into EM via the turbine transfers the mechanical force into friction which releases bursts of em as the magnetic field is broken in the generator.  That em has to be transformed into high voltage low through step up transformers.  It has to be transmitted along high tension wires with electrical resistance.  Then it must be stepped down to the voltage usable in the charging station to charge batteries.  Storage Batteries "leak" power and will deplete on their own if left unused.  Battery power is discharged through a power distribution circuit to the electric motor(s).  The electric motor(s) translate EM BACK into Mechanical Energy.

Every single change from one energy domain to the next loses energy to radiated EM and or infrared emissions.  With electric motors shedding unacceptable loads in heat (IR), loss of carbon from contact brushes and friction.

In a hybrid the second scenario is used to power the car part of the time and to charge the batteries without the transmission. losses.

In a gasoline engine calories are burned to produce mechanical energy directly, and some is captured as em by the alternator.  Even at 30% volumetric efficiency you would still be ahead in the gasoline engine.  But in real world terms the VE on a gasoline car is something like 60% due to constant tuning by the ignition computer, with finely tuned race cars reaching a VE of close to 90%.

The major weaknesses of Internal combustion engines is that starting and stopping the combustion cycle is wasteful because excess fuel is required in those processes.  Also the heat of combustion is substantial and is never recouped except to heat the cab of the vehicle on a cold day.

But Net Net, once you factor in the energy in producing components, transmission, lost potential during storage (ie while the car is parked) Electric Cars are a disaster waiting to happen.  External combustion engines, using CNG or Hydrogen, have a far greater potential for efficient energy usage and clean emissions.
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ryos

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Re: I would like to announce!
« Reply #499 on: July 11, 2009, 09:52:34 PM »
Oh, you wanted well-to-wheels figures? You should have said so.

Of course, you described the well-to-wheels process for electricity, but completely ignored it for oil. Here's an overview that's brief and clear.. Also, I've never seen anyone claim 60% efficiency for a gasoline car - ever - and who cares about race cars? Nobody actually drives them outside of a racetrack.

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In a hybrid the second scenario is used to power the car part of the time and to charge the batteries without the transmission. losses.

This is true. However, it's only one part of the hybrid system. It's not hard to see that a hybrid drivetrain - taken as a whole - is more efficient than a traditional gasoline drivetrain. One need look no further than the EPA sticker on the window.

As for well-to-wheels on an electric drivetrain, I couldn't find the paper I wanted, so I'd need to look around. But, for the sake of argument, let's imagine that they come out dead even (something I don't believe to be true, but again, we're positing for the sake of argument). In that case, switching to electric drive would still be a good idea because of the other side of the energy equation - the political side. If we all drove electric cars, we would be dependent on no one but ourselves for our energy.

It also helps the environmental side, because we are free to switch to cleaner methods of electric generation over time.
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mtlhddoc2

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Re: I would like to announce!
« Reply #500 on: July 12, 2009, 02:14:17 AM »
if we all switched to electric engines NOW. Our oil imports would increase from about 30% to nearly 50% immediately, causing us to further be indebted to the oil producing nations. We need to switch to nuclear, solar, wind, geothermal and tidal engery sources first, then we can all drive electric cars. Although, with the current electric engine model, we would have to stop and charge the car every forty miles. And a full charge takes about 8 hours. I wouldnt even be able to get to work and back. And can you imagine the strain on the grid this would produce? Many parts of the country have rolling brown outs and black outs as it is because the grid cannot supply enough power to everyone all at once. Now, lets all plug in our cars! Sounds ridiculous, doesnt it?

The only "electric" car i would currently drive are the recycle hybrids, not the plug in models. They Prius gets 50 mpg or better without ever using the electrical grid or any other power source but itself. And there is no reason not to continue to use this type of extra energy in cars, except for the fact hat it is inefficient, at best. But it STILL saves tons of gasoline. If everyone drove a Prius, we could reduce our imported oil from 30% to about 10%.

The Jade Knight

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Re: I would like to announce!
« Reply #501 on: July 12, 2009, 05:11:35 AM »
if we all switched to electric engines NOW. Our oil imports would increase from about 30% to nearly 50% immediately, causing us to further be indebted to the oil producing nations. We need to switch to nuclear, solar, wind, geothermal and tidal engery sources first, then we can all drive electric cars. Although, with the current electric engine model, we would have to stop and charge the car every forty miles. And a full charge takes about 8 hours. I wouldnt even be able to get to work and back. And can you imagine the strain on the grid this would produce? Many parts of the country have rolling brown outs and black outs as it is because the grid cannot supply enough power to everyone all at once. Now, lets all plug in our cars! Sounds ridiculous, doesnt it?

I think the Tesla Roadster has a 250 mile range (a wee bit more than 40 miles).  Additionally, night-time, when most cars would be charging, is the time that least power is used; enabling cars to be charging during this time would increase electrical efficiency in this nation.
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ryos

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Re: I would like to announce!
« Reply #502 on: July 12, 2009, 05:26:53 AM »
I don't know what makes you think that. Again, everything I've read points to electric cars using a lot less energy, not more.

Also, your conception of an electric car is somewhat dated. The cars coming on the market both now and in the near future get between 100 and 300 miles to a charge. They perform better, are generally easier to operate (most electric cars use a single speed transmission), are cheaper to drive, and, due to the simpler mechanical nature of an electric motor (one moving part!), require far less maintenance.

As Jade pointed out, EVs charging at night would be a very good thing. Most electricity generated at night is wasted. Also, a full charge only takes 8 hours if you run 120V household current (and if charging overnight, who cares?). Installing a 240V charger in your garage cuts that time in half.

As for whether or not people would actually mostly charge at night, I can't say for sure. There may be issues. Nobody can really predict what will happen. Fortunately, we will have many years to figure it out and work out the kinks.
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mtlhddoc2

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Re: I would like to announce!
« Reply #503 on: July 12, 2009, 01:35:29 PM »
100+ miles on an electric motor? No, not a one. the new Volvo Clean Diesel Hybrid PlugIn has a 40-45 miles range on the electric motor, and then the gas kicks in. the Chevy volt has a 50 mile max.

Yes, if they generated electricity at night it would be wasted. they only generate what the grid demands. If the grid demands more, they produce more. We would fry the grid almost immediately after giving everyone and electric car. Plus, electricty would cost more per mile for the end-user than gasoline at $2.50 a gallon, and would break even at about $4 per gallon. So it is not economically viable either. The "plu in" electric car, no matter what the government shoves down our throats, is a dated concept as long as we still rely on fossil fuels for electricity production. Now, stick solar panels on the roof of your house and then charge your car, free fuel, but not when drawing from the grid.

ryos

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Re: I would like to announce!
« Reply #504 on: July 13, 2009, 02:17:40 AM »
100+ miles on an electric motor? No, not a one. the new Volvo Clean Diesel Hybrid PlugIn has a 40-45 miles range on the electric motor, and then the gas kicks in. the Chevy volt has a 50 mile max.

You're being a bit generous to the Volt. It has a 40 mile max range, which should still cover most people's commutes without needing the range extender to kick in.

Beyond that, did you look at any of the four links I posted? They are all pure EV's that are either in production right now (Tesla roadster) or  under development for 2010-2011 release (the rest), and every last one gets over 100 miles per charge. That's not speculative range, either; the engineering prototypes they've actually built pull those numbers. And that's only four examples. Honestly, any auto company with half a brain is now working on electric drivetrains.

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Yes, if they generated electricity at night it would be wasted. they only generate what the grid demands. If the grid demands more, they produce more. We would fry the grid almost immediately after giving everyone and electric car.

Electric generation is an industrial process that's not as easy to just shut down as you seem to imagine. Most electricity generated at night is wasted because it costs more to shut the furnaces down every night than it does to just leave them running.

Also, you're ignoring the fact that we *can't* just give everyone an electric car right now. We'll have years upon years to scale up and work out the kinks. Which I've already said, in my last post. Did you even read it? If so, why do you disagree?

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Plus, electricty would cost more per mile for the end-user than gasoline at $2.50 a gallon, and would break even at about $4 per gallon. So it is not economically viable either. The "plu in" electric car, no matter what the government shoves down our throats, is a dated concept as long as we still rely on fossil fuels for electricity production. Now, stick solar panels on the roof of your house and then charge your car, free fuel, but not when drawing from the grid.

Have you actually done that math, or are you just making stuff up? Here, let's work it out. Assume a base price of $0.10 / kWh (a generous assumption; many pay less, especially at night). The Tesla Roadster's battery pack stores 53 kWh of juice. At a charging efficiency of 80% (I made that number up; it's probably a slight under-estimate), it takes 66.25 kWh to charge. That's $6.63 at our base price, or about $0.04 / mile.

For comparison, my 1997 Chrysler Sebring gets about 17 mi/gallon around town. At $2.50 / gallon, I pay $0.15 / mile. For me to break even with even the Tesla Roadster (to which efficiency is not the primary concern), gas prices would have to drop to $0.68 / gallon.
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mtlhddoc2

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Re: I would like to announce!
« Reply #505 on: July 13, 2009, 03:58:32 AM »
you leave out alot of numbers in your posts and your math. My electric bill is sky high for very little due to all the extra charges involved. Even if I were to use NO electricity in a given month, it would still cost me $60.

I spend about $75 a month for  my 50 mile per day commute in my 1995 Volvo. Most newer cars get better mileage than I do. So thats about 75 cents a mile. the electric company charges me about 50 cents per kilowatt. so the roadster would cost me about $25 to fill up and only take me 160 miles, whereas my Volvo can take me nearly 500 miles on a $35 fill. Although Tesla is claiming up to 300 miles per charge now, with 45 minute fill ups. With the upgrades, of course, which pushes it well into viability if they can reduce cost and improve efficiency.

you are also forgetting the sheer cost of those new supercars of yours. the Telsa is slated to start at around $50,000. well out of the average persons range. With the 230 and 300 mile versions, you have to get expensive upgrades. pusing it well out of even the average upper middle class range.

And lastly, the first Teslas will not even be delivered until 2012, which, by that time, they will already be obsolete, or, they will have failed, because all they have now are test cars under controlled conditions. i live in the northeast, cold kills batteries. So they more than likely will not even be viable in cold weather, as the Volt is not.

The Chevy volt at only 40 mile range, does not even come close to meeting the average two-way commute for most people. The natioanl average is 26 minutes, or approximately 25 miles each way. So you would have to charge your car while at work. The average American drives 87 minutes per day, or close to 90 miles. You would have to charge your car TWICE during teh day to do all of your driving. Plus, mileage drops considerably when in cold weather. The Volt is a waste of time. Noone will buy it and it will be mothballed within two years.

ryos

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Re: I would like to announce!
« Reply #506 on: July 13, 2009, 05:10:44 AM »
you leave out alot of numbers in your posts and your math. My electric bill is sky high for very little due to all the extra charges involved. Even if I were to use NO electricity in a given month, it would still cost me $60.

That's interesting. And odd. It's been a while since I looked, but if memory serves we pay between 10 to 11 cents/kWh here in Provo. Since gas here tends to cost rather higher than the national average, I assumed electric would be the same.

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you are also forgetting the sheer cost of those new supercars of yours. the Telsa is slated to start at around $50,000. well out of the average persons range. With the 230 and 300 mile versions, you have to get expensive upgrades. pusing it well out of even the average upper middle class range.

All new technology costs more when it's new. My fingers are crossed that technological advances and economies of scale will bring down the cost over time. I have no reason to believe they won't.

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And lastly, the first Teslas will not even be delivered until 2012, which, by that time, they will already be obsolete, or, they will have failed, because all they have now are test cars under controlled conditions. i live in the northeast, cold kills batteries. So they more than likely will not even be viable in cold weather, as the Volt is not.

You're talking about the Model S. They've already delivered around 600 Roadsters, and are making more at a rate of 100 / month, all of which have sold. Tesla is literally leading the charge in electric vehicles, and are even providing energy storage for companies like Daimler.

As for the cold, Tesla keeps the batteries heated (or cooled, as necessary) so performance isn't impacted. Obviously this takes energy, but it's better than running cold.

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The Chevy volt at only 40 mile range, does not even come close to meeting the average two-way commute for most people. The natioanl average is 26 minutes, or approximately 25 miles each way. So you would have to charge your car while at work. The average American drives 87 minutes per day, or close to 90 miles. You would have to charge your car TWICE during teh day to do all of your driving. Plus, mileage drops considerably when in cold weather. The Volt is a waste of time. Noone will buy it and it will be mothballed within two years.

The Volt is not a pure EV. It's a serial hybrid. The 40 mile figure is just the all-electric range. Once that is exhausted, a gas-powered generator kicks on to keep you going. It has the exact same range characteristics as any other gasoline-powered car, with the bonus that, if you're driving less than 40 miles, you don't burn any gas.

We'll have to wait and see to know for sure how it works out, but just based on what I've read, it sounds like a fantastic stopgap between the gasoline car and pure electric vehicle.
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The Jade Knight

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Re: I would like to announce!
« Reply #507 on: July 13, 2009, 09:08:35 AM »
I spend about $75 a month for my 50 mile per day commute in my 1995 Volvo. Most newer cars get better mileage than I do. So thats about 75 cents a mile. the electric company charges me about 50 cents per kilowatt. so the roadster would cost me about $25 to fill up and only take me 160 miles, whereas my Volvo can take me nearly 500 miles on a $35 fill. Although Tesla is claiming up to 300 miles per charge now, with 45 minute fill ups. With the upgrades, of course, which pushes it well into viability if they can reduce cost and improve efficiency.

You pay 50 per kwh at night?  That's outrageous!  If you look at EIA statistics, the average American pays less than 10 per kwh (even less at night), and even the most expensive areas average less than 22 p kwh.
(http://www.eia.doe.gov/fuelelectric.html)

And assuming you travel to work 20 days a month (a low number), your monthly commute alone is 1000 miles.  That's 13 miles to the dollar, suggesting you get 34 miles per gallon (assuming $2.50 for a gallon of gas).  This is excellent mileage for a non-hybrid.  If you work more than 20 days a month, or if you drive anywhere other than your commute, this number shoots up even higher.

So, in your particular case, paying outrageous amounts for gas, and with excellent mileage, it's theoretically possible that a pure electric car might not save you much money.  But for the vast majority of Americans, it's a much more efficient alternative.
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mtlhddoc2

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Re: I would like to announce!
« Reply #508 on: July 13, 2009, 11:22:52 AM »
quick one before I head to work.

I pay $2.30 for gas. And I get about 30 mpg in my very old Volvo. Most new cars average out well over 20 mpg, with many being in the 30 range. 30 isnt "excellent" any more, it is average. And yes, you cannt just look at straight$$/kwh costs. you have to look at the total bill, which included the kwh costs, the delivery charge, the line maintenance fees etc etc. I have never had an electric bill under $80 here, no matter how little electricity I used.

And yes, the Roadster is available, with the cheapest model being over $100,000 and no deliveries until 2010. I do not cosider that to be "available now". Or even "available soon". They wont have this car ready for mass markets until 2012.

The hybrid is STILL the way to go since it gets such good mileage. It actually used less oil (whether in gas or electricity) than anything available, or soon to be available. Skip the so called "green" electric car and stick with the really green Prius or Ford Fusion hybrid. The rest is just bluster.

ryos

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Re: I would like to announce!
« Reply #509 on: July 13, 2009, 06:16:05 PM »
you have to look at the total bill, which included the kwh costs, the delivery charge, the line maintenance fees etc etc. I have never had an electric bill under $80 here, no matter how little electricity I used.

No, you don't, because you would pay those fees anyway, electric car or no. The only number that matters when figuring how much money it costs to drive an EV is the price per kWh at the time you charge the car.

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And yes, the Roadster is available, with the cheapest model being over $100,000 and no deliveries until 2010. I do not cosider that to be "available now". Or even "available soon". They wont have this car ready for mass markets until 2012.

Or, to state it another way, the cheapest model is over $100,000 and you can't get one delivered until 2010, and people are STILL paying $5k to stand in line. They won't even start deliveries on the Model S (assuming it doesn't get delayed like the Roadster did) until 2012, and people are STILL willing to plunk down $5k TODAY to stand in line.

The Roadster will never be a mass-market car. It's in the same market class as a Ferrari. The Model S will never be a mass-market car, either. It's in the same market class as a Lexus. Hopefully, by the time the third Tesla rolls around, they will have driven costs down to mass-market levels.

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The hybrid is STILL the way to go since it gets such good mileage. It actually used less oil (whether in gas or electricity) than anything available, or soon to be available. Skip the so called "green" electric car and stick with the really green Prius or Ford Fusion hybrid. The rest is just bluster.

Sure thing--today. In fact, assuming I can afford it after I get out of school, the car I most want to buy is a Ford Escape Hybrid. But that doesn't mean that EV's won't be the way to go in even a few short years. And, for some people, they're ready to go right now.
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