Author Topic: I would like to announce!  (Read 48538 times)

mtlhddoc2

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Re: I would like to announce!
« Reply #480 on: July 07, 2009, 09:56:35 PM »
I dont think there would be much protection needed in an accident either, again, if any. Normal construction would provide most if not all of the shielding needed. This wouldnt be a piece up plutonium just sitting on the hood of a car. It would need water for cooling anyway, since the real threat is not the radiation, but the temperatures it might have to achieve. A "quick cooling" system would need to be in place....  as you say, an engineering challenge, but one quite surmountable, if the proper resources were invested.

I worked for a foundry, we used the americanium for testing metals, specifically to make sure it was the proper alloy. And the reality was, we were exposed to more radiation from the heat and melted metals than from the americanium isotopes. Although I was not as exposed as some of the employees. I was in quality assurance (a tester, basically) and was typically not working directly with the smelters. Although, occassionally, I would have to take an in production sample. (think: wearing a space suit to go into a furnace)

Renoard

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Re: I would like to announce!
« Reply #481 on: July 08, 2009, 10:53:02 PM »
Probably the only thing more dangerous than a fission pile furnace, is a fusion furnace.  But goodness if they aren't trying to force a tokamac to sustain fusion.  There is a reason the orbit of the earth is as far as it is and that we have an insanely powerful magnetic field as well as shortwave filtration (ozone).  Radiation tweaks chromosomes and you die, painfully. 

A common citation for how safe reactors are, is that workers are exposed to levels as low as those produced by the potassium/argon decay in granitic structures like old castles.  Castles that produced numerous sublethal recessive mutations as well as extremely low birthrates among European nobility and royalty.  Even the relatively "safe" amounts of radiation exposure are not good.  More to the point, nuclear power is unnecessary.  Hydrogen burned at a controlled temperature with a catalyst produces clean emissions and a is 100% renewable from seawater.
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mtlhddoc2

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Re: I would like to announce!
« Reply #482 on: July 08, 2009, 11:28:21 PM »
Renoard: how close are they to producing a hydrogen reactor?
I can answer for you: not very.

Whereas we have fission reactors now which are safe, incredibly efficient and effective and produce little to no pollutants. We currently have hundreds of naval ships operating with nuclear reactors and since they have gone online 30 some years ago, there has not been 1 instance of radiation poisoning.

And from what I have read up on concerning the hydrogen burning reactor studies...  a mishap with a hydrogen plant, as the technology stands now, would cause the same level of destruction as the sun going supernova. (again "as it stands now"). I cannot put my faith in unproven technologies when we have perfect capable and clean tech now to produce all the energy we need for a small fraction of the cost of the daily importing of oil and the release of tons of harmful gasses into our amosphere daily.

sortitus

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Re: I would like to announce!
« Reply #483 on: July 09, 2009, 12:30:25 AM »
And from what I have read up on concerning the hydrogen burning reactor studies...  a mishap with a hydrogen plant, as the technology stands now, would cause the same level of destruction as the sun going supernova.
Ok, two problems:
1. Our sun isn't big enough to go supernova.
2. The earth can't produce a destructive force anywhere near that of a supernova. Full stop.

We may be able to destroy our planet, but to affect even Venus would be difficult at best. Anyway, please link to said studies. (The fact that you said studies instead of research makes me think that it could be inaccurate as well. Studies are often proven wrong. Much more often than experiments. Plus, the word 'studies' is attached to telephone surveys and college polls, giving it a sour taste in my mouth when talking about science. NYT: "99 percent of people think that hydrogen reactors could kill us all!":P)
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mtlhddoc2

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Re: I would like to announce!
« Reply #484 on: July 09, 2009, 12:55:23 AM »
It was a while ago, and I read alot. but I also qualified with "as it stands now" which means that just how it could be at the moment. For all I know, ten minutes ago, some guy came up with a perfectly safe way to do it. But regardless, fission is a "shovel ready project" unlike stimulus bill projects and unlike hydrogen.

And actually, our sun is TOO BIG to go supernova at the moment, but it could certainly go nova. A supernova happens after a star becomes incredibly dense. It is a rare event, but cataclysmic. And from what i understand, it is entire possible for that to happen to a planet. If all the molecules in a planet happened to attract to each other with emmense force, the planet will shrink and become incredibly dense, which in turn could cause it to "supernova" which, in turn is a cataclysmic event and could certainly cause the planets Venus and Mars to be destroyed. Hydrogen "burning" is in effect, mini-fusion reactions. And I suppose could potentially cause a chain reaction within the atmopsphere, densifying the planet.

sortitus

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Re: I would like to announce!
« Reply #485 on: July 09, 2009, 01:18:17 AM »
No, our sun will go directly to the red giant phase. [wiki]
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Renoard

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Re: I would like to announce!
« Reply #486 on: July 09, 2009, 02:14:05 AM »
Also
I said burning hydrogen not reacting hydrogen.  A hydrogen reactor would have to be either fusion, or fission probably using deuterium.  Clean burning of hydrogen with a catalyst at appx 750 deg. (temperature of the fire) produces steam pressure as exhaust and no measurable NOx or carbon compounds.  All the tech for it is currently available most of it off the rack.

Quote
Whereas we have fission reactors now which are safe, incredibly efficient and effective and produce little to no pollutants. We currently have hundreds of naval ships operating with nuclear reactors and since they have gone online 30 some years ago, there has not been 1 instance of radiation poisoning.
Your definition of no pollutants is one that not even GE would agree with.  Plutonium is a pollutant.  Any depleted Uranium Isotope is a pollutant by definition because it is a soluble heavy metal.  With some of them there is the risk of radiation poisoning as well and no matter how you look at it it's bad news.

The definition of radiation poisoning that you are applying is what I was calling into question.  As I said, defective recessive genes and hereditary illnesses they can cause are sicknesses even if you can only link them to the radiation exposure via statistics.  All it takes is a bit of stray gama or a little lost proton even without hot particulates.
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mtlhddoc2

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Re: I would like to announce!
« Reply #487 on: July 09, 2009, 03:11:36 AM »
Renoard: you can get similar results from tap water, cell phones, microwave ovens, convection ovens or several dozen other sources which we react with in our every day life. Uranium/plutonium, because of teh safety protocols which are enacted when they enter the fray, is safer than a microwave and produces less magnetic pollution than a cell phone and less heat pollution than an ordinary convection oven. The amount of "pollutants"
pol·lut·ant  (pə-lōōt'nt)   
n.  Something that pollutes, especially a waste material that contaminates air, soil, or water.

is neglidgible since the waste rod are normally stored inside the reactor. And even when removed, are stored in highly secure locations. the average family produces more "pollutants" in a week than all the reactors in the country produce in a year, since they never expel the waste material.
http://www.nrc.gov/reading-rm/doc-collections/nuregs/brochures/br0216/#how_much_hlw

the total waste from all the reactors in the country since the first one went online about 35 years ago is less than the average town uses in a week.

Hydrogen burning? No hydro burning tech has been approved for use as of yet. Current hydrogen models split the h2 off of water and then recombine it with oxygen, essentially, fission, and then fusion:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrogen_power

Peter Ahlstrom

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Re: I would like to announce!
« Reply #488 on: July 09, 2009, 04:24:29 AM »
mtlhddoc2 you're using much looser terminology than most of us are used to. Electrolysis does not involve fission (the splitting of atomic nuclei) and burning (recombining hydrogen with oxygen) does not involve fusion (the joining of atomic nuclei into larger nuclei). Anytime you set something on fire you combine it with oxygen. That's the definition of burning.

I do think the "hydrogen economy" is a dead end though. Unless they can find a good way to produce it that uses less energy than it puts out, or nearly equivalent energy, it's a waste.
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mtlhddoc2

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Re: I would like to announce!
« Reply #489 on: July 09, 2009, 04:42:28 AM »
maybe i am being too basic, but you are right, hydrogen, as it stands now, is a dead end. That could change, tomorrow, or 20 years from now, or never. But we do need to press forward with all available "clean" energy sources, when efficient. nuclear fission is the most efficient of them at this time, even if it is not as "clean" as wind or solar (although both wind and solar do have climate effects, and habitat effects, which should not be discounted.)

Fire does combine oxygen with otehr molecules, but it also breaks down the molecules of the source material. In essense, if you forgive the basics again, fission and fusion at the same time. Fire also has radiant qualities as well, due to teh fact that in many cases, some of each molecule can be lost and its nucleus can change based on the heat of the reaction. This is why a cigarette will set off a geiger counter.

sortitus

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Re: I would like to announce!
« Reply #490 on: July 09, 2009, 06:18:09 AM »
We need to breed a class of humans for the purpose of generating power. We'll dedicate more resources to farming and have bicycle power plants. Problem solved. Case is closed. Now get to it. The first part, obviously.

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Peter Ahlstrom

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Re: I would like to announce!
« Reply #491 on: July 09, 2009, 06:34:16 AM »
EPA says tobacco contains radioactive elements lead-210 and polonium-210.

http://www.epa.gov/rpdweb00/sources/tobacco.html

That is why cigarettes set off a geiger counter.

Radiant isn't the same thing as radioactive...normal fire is not radioactive unless something that's being burned is radioactive. Fire does not cause fission. Spontaneous fission (including theoretical heat-induced fission) does not occur in nonradioactive elements. Yes, there are extremely trace amounts of radioactive elements all around us, but that doesn't have anything to do with fire.

Splitting molecules is not fission. Joining molecules is not fusion. Not when we're talking about nuclear anything.
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ryos

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Re: I would like to announce!
« Reply #492 on: July 09, 2009, 07:55:44 AM »
Wow, this got long. TL;DR summary: Our sun isn't massive enough to go supernova, it's silly to think anything could make the earth "go nova", and hydrogen is not terribly useful as a power source unless we can figure out how to control and sustain fusion.

OK, here goes. Memories from my Astronomy class, all too long ago:

Our sun is not large enough to go supernova, where by "large" I mean "massive". The physical size of a star is a matter of fluid equilibrium, and is largely irrelevant to its eventual ability to go supernova. As a star ages and consumes its hydrogen, it will begin to fuse heavier and heavier elements. Stars of our size get up to around carbon before dying. More massive stars get up into the metals: iron and beyond.

An aging star will eventually exhaust all available fuel (where by "exhaust" I mean "convert into elements so heavy that they won't fuse at the energies produced by a star of a given mass"). When this happens, the star will collapse. If the star was sufficiently massive in life, its core will compress down to a neutron star, which the outer gaseous layers rebound off of. Fueled by this rebound (and super-heated by their rapid collapse), these layers explode violently outward. That's a supernova.

A yellow star like our sun will never go nova. Rather than collapsing inward and then violently exploding, our star will expand and cool until it's roughly the size of the orbit of Mars. The expanding star will eventually reach a point where the outward force of radiation and other pressures is greater than the force of gravity. When this happens, the star will gently (well, gently compared to a supernova) give off its outer layers into an ever-expanding cloud, leaving behind a white-hot carbon core that cannot sustain fusion of any sort; this is a white dwarf. White dwarfs are doomed either to slowly cool or accrete enough matter from other sources to go nova themselves.

The idea that anything at all could make the Earth "go nova" is ludicrous. Sorry, but there's no other way to say it. It just doesn't make any sense. The largest thermonuclear explosion ever created on the surface of the Earth (the 50 megaton Russian Tsar Bomba) did some crazy stuff like blow out windows hundreds of miles away (atmospheric focusing of pressure waves), and it registered on seismic instruments around the world. But destroy the entire world? Not a chance.

Lastly, the idea that we should burn hydrogen in power plants is misguided at best. You can't mine hydrogen, nor can you find a way to produce it that uses less energy than you put in (that would be a violation of the laws of thermodynamics). The only potential use for hydrogen in a power plant context is fusion, which is, by all reports, 30-50 years away if it ever happens at all.

Somewhat ironically, the best way to produce hydrogen for transportation fuel (also not the best idea, for efficiency, energy density, and infrastructure reasons) is lots of nuclear power.
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Renoard

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Re: I would like to announce!
« Reply #493 on: July 09, 2009, 05:44:17 PM »
Actually,
Rendering free hydrogen using photovoltaic cells linked to is a feasible technology.  The energy need for producing H would be spread out over time and surface area of the solar batteries.  Burning hydrogen for energy becomes a means of concentrating relatively weak solar energy into intense bursts that are actually usable.  This is essentially the same role fossil fuels serve, but cuts the volatile biochemicals out of the loop.

We need to breed a class of humans for the purpose of generating power. We'll dedicate more resources to farming and have bicycle power plants. Problem solved. Case is closed. Now get to it. The first part, obviously.

Umm.  I think the southern states tried a program like that in the 18'th and 19'th centuries. . .
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Peter Ahlstrom

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Re: I would like to announce!
« Reply #494 on: July 09, 2009, 06:07:41 PM »
That seems like more energy loss to me. Just go straight to electricity instead...
All Saiyuki fans should check out Dazzle! Emotionally wrenching action-adventure and quirky humor! (At least read chapter 6 and tell me if you're not hooked.) Volume 10 out now!