Creator...?

[AvalonDreamer]

I've noticed that despite the fact that Brandon is writing aMoL now, all of the speculation on this board is still mistborn (a good 95%) and while this isn't a terrible thing, it's a little disheartening as a WoT fan.

That mini-rant aside, I've always had this nagging idea in the back of my head that the Dragon and the Creator are one in the same, that in saving the world at the end of the seventh age (i think the seventh was last), he was attributed with 'creating the world' and he imprisoned Shai'tan by essentially re-weaving the pattern over the Bore. It makes a lot of sense to me, but that may be sleep-deprivations finally setting in.

I know there are a few people who have followed WoT to Brandon, and I'd love to hear your thoughts on this.

[Comfortable Madness]

Interesting theory. Although, I don't think that the creator and the Dragon are one in the same. Just think about how the Wheel works. Lews Therin or whatever name the Dragon goes by in whatever age it may be, is just another thread in the pattern. A thread that greatly influences other threads but just a thread. My point being that the Dragon is only a single thread in the grand pattern created by the Creator. Therefore, the Dragon is not the Creator.

[darxbane]

The Creator and Shai'tan exist outside the Wheel of Time.  RJ had talked extensively both in the books and in answers to questions that the Dragon is the hampion of the Creator.  After all, something has to decide who becomes Ta'veren, who is chosen as a Hero of the Horn and when certain powerful souls are re-entered into the pattern to help good triumph over evil.  The Creator's influence in the battle is a lot more subtle than the Dark Lord's, but it is still there.

Oh, the reason there are not a lot of WOT posts here yet is I think people are still using one of the many websites dedicated to WOT.  Seeing as this is currently the only website for EUOL's books, we tend to stay focused on those, for the most part.  I'm sure things will change as AMOL gets closer to completion.

[SarahG]

The Creator is the epitome of good, just as the Dark Lord is the epitome of bad.  Rand is a very human character, more good than bad but definitely not purely good.  I just don't see him being the Creator.

[rjl]

Look back to Eye of The World, in the fights at the end "I WILL TAKE NO PART, ONLY THE CHOSEN ONE CAN DO WHAT MUST BE DONE, IF HE WILL" (may have the quote slightly off, this is from memory), most people attribute this sentence to the creator, with the chosen one being the dragon.

[Andrew the Great]

As stated earlier, those of us who followed WOT to Brandon still post from wherever we came from. I know several people here use WOTmania, and I post on Dragonmount all the time. Thus, the lack of theories from here. Plus, I don't know about WOTmania, but over on Dragonmount we have theories for every imaginable aspect of the books. Not too much room for more.

The Creator is the epitome of good, just as the Dark Lord is the epitome of bad.  Rand is a very human character, more good than bad but definitely not purely good.  I just don't see him being the Creator.

There we go with this again. It's not necessarily good vs evil, more Order vs. Chaos. See the multiple discussions on Dragonmount (and probably several others as well) for full explanation.

I always attributed the quote at the end of EOTW to the creator, as the only other time anyone speaks in all caps, it is the DO, and we this wouldn't make sense coming from him. So, it follows that it would be his light side equivalent.

[BloodlessVictory]

I've noticed that despite the fact that Brandon is writing aMoL now, all of the speculation on this board is still mistborn (a good 95%) and while this isn't a terrible thing, it's a little disheartening as a WoT fan.

It's less disheartening for me as a WoT fan and someone just starting on a serious writing project of my own.  While I hope that WoT fans check out Brandon's other works and like his original worlds as much as (or more than) aMoL, it's probably better if the WoT stays mostly on WoT-themed sites (I'm biased, because I run one, but it's my writer mindset that's talking here).   There is so much WoT "baggage" that is totally unrelated to Brandon's work on aMoL and his own worlds that I think it would be a shame if it spilled over to his site/blogs/this forum, which should be mostly about his stuff.  Would you want to log on here and see people debating who killed Asmodean? 

[AvalonDreamer]

Consider this an attempt to bring in the wonderfully speculative minds that Brandon's work seems to attract. I used to be on SilkLantern and Dragonmount, but it's really all the same people who think they've got every answer concrete because they've been pondering and arguing these things since the mid-nineties. I like this crowd a lot, and I do think it's relevant here, now, because a lot of things are going to come to light in the last book, and I hope we get some of Brandon's flavor in it.

Rand actually questions at some point though how the Bore could possibly be sealed as if new each turning, especially if the Creator has stepped back from the world to see what happens. Just like how many deities assimilate a human form to accomplish a goal in stories, isn't it possible that the Creator took on the persona of the Dragon to join the fight?

(I've probably lost this one, but I'm still going to try to provoke some thought.)

[darxbane]

Consider me provoked, then    I will warn everyone up front that I am writing this on 5 hours sleep in the past 48 hours, so I may ramble. 
 As much as I thought the movie Dogma was quite interesting, I don't subscribe to the Creator making Itself fallible in order to get directly involved.  Any direct involvement would be considered an imposition on the free will of Its People, which is a trait of evil.  The good side can only assist in an indirect way.  Luckily, despite Shai'Tan's more direct involvement, Its motivations are self destructive.  Look how distrustful the Foresaken are of each other.  Their loyalty is only to themselves.  They may place loyalty to the dark lord, but they are only interested in what they could gain by Its release.  Ironically, the most likely result will be the destruction of all that was created.  To be the antithesis of the Creator, the Dark Lord would place zero value on life.  The foresaken would only need to consider how they treat the darkfriends who serve them to realize their true value to the Dark Lord.

[SarahG]

There we go with this again. It's not necessarily good vs evil, more Order vs. Chaos. See the multiple discussions on Dragonmount (and probably several others as well) for full explanation.

Well, I haven't spent much time on Dragonmount, so I won't argue.  I simply seem to remember Moiraine once saying something like "The Creator is good, the Dark One is evil, the Pattern is neither."  Not that Moiraine is infallible, I suppose.

[Comfortable Madness]

Moiraine not infallible! Blasphemer! If it wasn't for Moiraine Rand would be lying dead at the end of a Trolloc scythe somewhere long ago....

As for the order vs. chaos debate goes, I have always seen it a good vs. evil struggle.  Rand would be the "good guy" and  thus the champion of good and he really does not represent order in anyway.

[AvalonDreamer]

Rand is the good guy, but couldn't he have stayed the good guy if he'd gone to work for Shai'tan like Ishmael had offered in the first book? He could have just as easily ruled over earth benevolently...

As for the arguement that the creator won't involve himself directly, thats where the beauty of it comes in, what better way to be an all powerful being and affect things than if you strip away all your memories and limit your power? It's like any of the Horn heroes while in Tel'Aran'Rhoid (sp?), they get back all of their memories and have considerable power, elsewhile, here, they are just simple humans who have a stronger will to fight.

(4 or so hours of sleep... and a lot of caffeine)

[Comfortable Madness]

I don't think that Lews Therin could have accepted Ishmael's offer(by the way the best prologue ever) and then ruled like Shai'tan didn't exist. If he ruled under the authority of Shai'tan he most likely would have become as corrupt and twisted as Ishmael or the other Forsaken. Also, if he was the type of person to accept deals from supreme evil beings I don't think he would be the type of person to rule benevolently anyways.

[AvalonDreamer]

Well, I don't agree with the 'type pf person' you're implying would accept that deal. If I knew that I could do a better job and save more people with less strife by taking that route, I'd do it in a heartbeat. As for the being twisted by association, I do agree that it would almost inevitably happen... Maybe if he knew it would happen in due time, he could set up a way to keep it from happening? Like how he knew he was going to die, so he set Stewards in place over the various countries to take over.

Right now, the thing about the Bore puts a huge hangup in my mind. If the supreme deity that is the Creator active enough to step in and imprison the Dark One, who's to say he's beyond incarnating himself as a blank slate to aid the cause? HE wouldn't be directly fighting, or at least not the all knowing, all powerful him.

[darxbane]

In that case, why didn't he just reseal the bore?  Or even better yet, come down and prevent it from happening?  If you read the EOTW prologue, Ishamael tells Lews Therin that the battle between good and evil has always been decided by humans.  Ishamael is the Anti-dragon, if you will.  Why does the dark lord want the Dragon to convert? Because it is the ultimate victory.  Not only will It be released into the world, It has corrupted the champion of the Creator.