Poll

Which would you rather be?

Channeler
41 (48.2%)
Mistborn
25 (29.4%)
Keeper
10 (11.8%)
Wolfbrother
4 (4.7%)
Inquisitor
4 (4.7%)
Gray Man
0 (0%)
Gholam
1 (1.2%)
Fade
0 (0%)

Total Members Voted: 85

Author Topic: Wheel v. Mist  (Read 13671 times)

Reaves

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Re: Wheel v. Mist
« Reply #90 on: November 20, 2008, 01:59:13 AM »
very good point about the flows of air ^

as far as equipment goes, saying they have equal equipment is pretty silly. Channelers really don't use any equipment, except for angreal and sa'angreal. The entire system of Allomancy is based on having the proper metals. If we are going to deny angreal to channelers, the only thing equal we can deny to mistborn is ability to use the Mists/lerasium.  :o

also good point about the channelers we've seen being extremely strong. Even Moiraine who is considered "weak" compared to the other female channelers like Egwene, Elayne, and Nynaeve was considered a fairly strong channeler when she was being trained at the Tower. Rand is practically godlike compared to the channelers of her time, stilling I believe 2 Aes Sedai and defeating 4 more in his escape from the Aes Sedai after they captured him.

If the channeler in this battle is at the strength of Rand/Forsaken, it is only fair that the Mistborn be as strong as any other six mistborn combined.


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Re: Wheel v. Mist
« Reply #91 on: November 20, 2008, 02:27:34 AM »
Or just use one of the previously stilled Aes Sedai. Seeing how they have much less power. Or even an Accepted for that matter. I would be more prone to go with the Accepted seeing how their training level might be that same as our average Mistborn.
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Re: Wheel v. Mist
« Reply #92 on: November 20, 2008, 04:13:57 AM »
We do see Vin, who was both naturally talented and had a bit of a hemalurgic spike advantate-remember, she was beating up Ham.  While the average channeler may not be as tough, a reasonably talented mistborn (Like Lady Shan or the unnamed mistborn Vin takes down in the beginning of book 2) is also weaker than those we've seen a lot.  Also, in terms of training, wot main character channelers don't have much training either.

Am I the only one who sees the problem with the supposed ability to push buildings?  It wouldn't work like that imo.  Remember that Vin must, when durmalium-pushing, also use pewter in order to keep from being ripped apart.  When trapped in a cage of hard air, the mistborn is more likely to be splattered against their bonds than it is for the building to move.  In short, I think buildings are tougher than mistborn, even those blasting pewter.

Edited to remove repeated phrase
« Last Edit: November 20, 2008, 04:16:33 AM by sporkify »
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Czanos

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Re: Wheel v. Mist
« Reply #93 on: November 20, 2008, 04:57:41 AM »
I equate Vin's level of power being somewhere near Moraine's. Quite strong for her time, but not even near the strength of the original nine Allomancers. And her Hemalurgic earring has nothing to do with her beating Ham, as it only increases her Allomantic strength with bronze.

I think a more reasonable comparison is between The Lord Ruler and one of the Forsaken. Both are some of the most powerful individuals in their fields, and both have had a very long time to hone their skills. I'd equate Rashek's Allomancy with one of the weaker Forsaken though, seeing as how he didn't have to rely solely on Allomancy, and he didn't have much opposition.

Also, a few months/years training in the White Tower compared to a few months/years learning things on your own is hardly an equal field. Just in the same way almost anyone on these boards could tell Kelsier a good slew about Allomancy, the older Aes Sedai can impart quite a bit of wisdom to the Accepted and Novices. A few year's training in Allomancy could more roughly translate to Nynaeve's skill with the One Power before her formal training began. She had been using the One Power for years to heal people, and had become quite proficient at it, but she still had her block and any Aes Sedai could run her up one end and down the other.

As for the building scenario, it's true too much force could splatter a Mistborn, but most of that force would either be absorbed by the weaves or used to break them. (Side note: I seem to remember that weaves of air are designed to not hurt those encapsulated in them.) All of the force in an Allomantic Push is directed towards the center of the body, so as long as there is a good, tight flow of air across the center of a Mistborn, the force put upon the body would be very small. There's more force involved if the Allomancer is pushing or pulling at an angle, but I still think that so long as there was a tight weave around the Mistborn, their body would have to endure very little force.

Of course, retreating from theoretical land and moving into more probable grounds, It may be true that a Mistborn is weaker than a building, but so is a Channeler. I believe Elayne equates lifting things with air to be similar to lifting them with your arms, and could you imagine lifting something pressing down with the force of a building? And this is Elayne, who is quite strong indeed in the One Power.  (Or maybe it was Egwene, but the point still stands there.) All it takes is one quick little push against something stronger than the Channeler's weave of air, and the Mistborn gets a distinct advantage as the weaves snap.

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Comfortable Madness

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Re: Wheel v. Mist
« Reply #94 on: November 20, 2008, 02:39:54 PM »
If we go strictly by what we know a channeler can do and what a mistborn can do the fight isn't even close. This is evident in the fact that we continually go down the road of taking away power from a channeler and giving more power to an allomancer in order to handicap this fight. Plain and simple a channeler can do way to much. The biggest advantage is the channeler manipulates the surrounding world with their power and the allomancer manipulates only themselves. So, the ways for a channeler to win are pretty much endless....


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Czanos

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Re: Wheel v. Mist
« Reply #95 on: November 20, 2008, 11:43:51 PM »
But that's the neat thing about Brandon's hard magic systems. Once you know the rules, you can apply them in different ways. We know how Steelpushes and Ironpulls work, and we know that weaves of air provide a significantly strong binding force. I can only think of a few instances where this argument has strayed out of "what we strictly know", and none of them were crucial points anyways.

As for the discussion taking away from Channeler's that is merely an offshoot of trying to find a balance between the relative power scales. If we were asking wheather or not the average Aes Sedai could pulverize the average Lord-Ruler-time Mistborn, then the odds are quite in favor of the Channeler. But instead, we're debating whether or not a Mistborn could defeat a Channeler, if all else was equal.

Mistborn can also manipulate the world around them with most of the external metals, and some of their internal powers are great enough it doesn't even matter. It's true a Channeler has more versatility, but Mistborn were conceived to be killers. (At least mostly.) The One Power may be ultimate, but the people using it are most assuredly not.
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sporkify

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Re: Wheel v. Mist
« Reply #96 on: November 21, 2008, 12:08:55 AM »
"I equate Vin's level of power being somewhere near Moraine's. Quite strong for her time, but not even near the strength of the original nine Allomancers."
So are you saying that Vin's power level (OVER 9000!) is below average?  With the developments of WoT, ie the Asha'man, the windfinders, etc., Moiraine is towards the lower end of the spectrum.  Think, recent characters would skew the average upwards, and Asha'man would definitely have an impact...
(note: I am leaving Seanchan and Shara out of this.  While there are likely numerous channelers in each, they'd offset each other-Shara breeds for channelers, while Seanchan removes them from their gene pool.  Additionally, we don't really know how their populations...)
Vin is capable of killing mistborn and inquisitors alike, and if she's aproximately equal to Moiraine, the average mistborn would be equal to the average Aes Sedai.  And we've seen how they faired against just about everything...  

"But instead, we're debating whether or not a Mistborn could defeat a Channeler, if all else was equal. "
"Also, a few months/years training in the White Tower compared to a few months/years learning things on your own is hardly an equal field."  
Are we trying to make things a equal field?  Personally, I don't think it is.  The point is not to have a fair contest here, but to compare the magic systems for raw power/usefulness. 

"A few year's training in Allomancy could more roughly translate to Nynaeve's skill with the One Power before her formal training began. She had been using the One Power for years to heal people, and had become quite proficient at it, but she still had her block and any Aes Sedai could run her up one end and down the other."
I say that a Vin, pre training, is more in this area.  They both didn't know what they were doing, neither used the full extent of their power, both were proficient, and neither could truly stand up to a trained counterpart.  

"As for the building scenario, it's true too much force could splatter a Mistborn, but most of that force would either be absorbed by the weaves or used to break them. (Side note: I seem to remember that weaves of air are designed to not hurt those encapsulated in them.)"
I recall people thrashing around in air-this implies that they come up against something solid.  While Mat describes this as a thick jelly(TDR), there are also examples of damage being done to a person while held.  In the mini contest between Nynaeve and Siuan, Siuan is launched back, slammed against a wall, and held there.  This does not seem to protect the person held.  
There is, however, question as to how the weave works-channelers can lift people up into the air, but there is no mention of what happens if an outside force pushed on the held person then.  Perhaps they would fly off, but the holding would keep, (Picture a mistborn, stuck in one pose, flying around) or my splatter theory would be proven.  If you can find a passage where it notes that weaves of air are designed not to allow hurt-not just not to directly hurt, but also to stop indirect damage-please post.)

"I believe Elayne equates lifting things with air to be similar to lifting them with your arms, and could you imagine lifting something pressing down with the force of a building?"
I do recall something like this, but I thought it was more simile, rather than actual force.  I think that there are strength limits to how much can be lifted, though whether your average mistborn could overcome this and break the weave would be up for grabs.  (And they'd need to do it repeatedly, as channelers can weave quickly)

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Re: Wheel v. Mist
« Reply #97 on: November 21, 2008, 01:36:33 PM »
The reality is, effectively every single power the mistborn have can be replicated more effectively with a channeler power.

Emotional allomancy : The one power can be used in numerous ways to directly force people to act against their will, or to swear unbreakable oaths.  Rather than just 'influencing them'

Seeing into the future : been there, done that, for much longer timespans than 1-2 seconds in Robert Jordan's books.

Pushing metal?  A channeler can push anything around with various weaves, no matter what substance it is made of.  And, in more directions that merely directly away from or towards you.

Enhancing strength/health?  A pair of channelers can heal each other almost instantly from virtually any wound.  That is a heck of a lot more versatile than pewter.  And, channelers don't need 'hulk' strength boosts...they can just cast a weave instead to do any heavy lifting or hitting.

Flight?  Why fly when you can just warp the fabric of space and time and get to your destination instantly?  Come on, now.

And some big things you guys have missed : the one power can be used to create LASTING items and weaves.  Even things that you can give to another person who has no powers.  Allomancy creates NOTHING.

Plus, what use does allomancy have to other people?  You can't create things, you can't build things, you can't help anyone but yourself.  Life is not all about combat or fighting.  And, if it's a battle you need to win, a channeler can help an army much more.  Assasination? 

Channelers can protect themselves with weaves that act like permanent armor.  How would an allomancer even kill a channeler who did this?  Allomancers have no weapons that can punch through a reasonably strong weave or ward.  Oh yeah, wards!  I forgot about those.  How the heck would an allomancer even sneak up on a channeler who is protected by wards? 

I think that allomancy is a more interesting magic system because it has LIMITS.  The One power can do basically anything you can imagine (except MAYBE resurrect the dead/travel in time and a handful of other limits)

But this discussion is stupid.  The original thread was "which power would you rather have?"  And everyone here is just talking about using each power in a fight, trying to come up with a convoluted way for someone with the inferior power to win. 

There is no contest, here.

   One power : do anything, very strong
   Allomancy : do a limited list of things.  Some people can only do one thing.  Much weaker.  Requires a reagent that is limited supply (metals).  CANNOT BE USED TO CREATE LASTING ITEMS OR EFFECTS.


The more I write and think about this, the more stupid this thread sounds.  This is like a contest between Peter Petrelli and Mike Tyson.

Comfortable Madness

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Re: Wheel v. Mist
« Reply #98 on: November 21, 2008, 02:26:34 PM »
The reality is, effectively every single power the mistborn have can be replicated more effectively with a channeler power.

Emotional allomancy : The one power can be used in numerous ways to directly force people to act against their will, or to swear unbreakable oaths.  Rather than just 'influencing them'

Seeing into the future : been there, done that, for much longer timespans than 1-2 seconds in Robert Jordan's books.

Pushing metal?  A channeler can push anything around with various weaves, no matter what substance it is made of.  And, in more directions that merely directly away from or towards you.

Enhancing strength/health?  A pair of channelers can heal each other almost instantly from virtually any wound.  That is a heck of a lot more versatile than pewter.  And, channelers don't need 'hulk' strength boosts...they can just cast a weave instead to do any heavy lifting or hitting.

Flight?  Why fly when you can just warp the fabric of space and time and get to your destination instantly?  Come on, now.

And some big things you guys have missed : the one power can be used to create LASTING items and weaves.  Even things that you can give to another person who has no powers.  Allomancy creates NOTHING.

Plus, what use does allomancy have to other people?  You can't create things, you can't build things, you can't help anyone but yourself.  Life is not all about combat or fighting.  And, if it's a battle you need to win, a channeler can help an army much more.  Assasination? 

Channelers can protect themselves with weaves that act like permanent armor.  How would an allomancer even kill a channeler who did this?  Allomancers have no weapons that can punch through a reasonably strong weave or ward.  Oh yeah, wards!  I forgot about those.  How the heck would an allomancer even sneak up on a channeler who is protected by wards? 

I think that allomancy is a more interesting magic system because it has LIMITS.  The One power can do basically anything you can imagine (except MAYBE resurrect the dead/travel in time and a handful of other limits)

But this discussion is stupid.  The original thread was "which power would you rather have?"  And everyone here is just talking about using each power in a fight, trying to come up with a convoluted way for someone with the inferior power to win. 

There is no contest, here.

   One power : do anything, very strong
   Allomancy : do a limited list of things.  Some people can only do one thing.  Much weaker.  Requires a reagent that is limited supply (metals).  CANNOT BE USED TO CREATE LASTING ITEMS OR EFFECTS.


The more I write and think about this, the more stupid this thread sounds.  This is like a contest between Peter Petrelli and Mike Tyson.

Whoa! Ease down there fella. While I agree that it is close to impossible for a mistborn to defeat a channeler in open combat there is no need to call the discussion stupid. I've rather enjoyed this thread. What is the point of a forum if you can't have random and pointless conversations? Especially when it's about the magic systems of two worlds that don't really exist.
« Last Edit: November 21, 2008, 02:28:36 PM by Comfortable Madness »
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JCHancey

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Re: Wheel v. Mist
« Reply #99 on: November 21, 2008, 06:05:15 PM »
Enhancing strength/health?  A pair of channelers can heal each other almost instantly from virtually any wound.  That is a heck of a lot more versatile than pewter.  And, channelers don't need 'hulk' strength boosts...they can just cast a weave instead to do any heavy lifting or hitting.

Biggg flaw with the healing: it takes so much strength out of the channler that they wouldn't be able to do anything.
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Re: Wheel v. Mist
« Reply #100 on: November 21, 2008, 10:51:47 PM »
Jakobus, the person being healed loses strength, the person doing the healing doesn't lose that much because on their side of it, the strength comes from the one power.

The biggest limitation I see of the healing thing is that contact is needed in order to heal, which might be difficult to maintain during a fight.

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Re: Wheel v. Mist
« Reply #101 on: November 21, 2008, 11:43:52 PM »
I voted Mistborn, not because it's the most powerful, but I think I would enjoy it the most.  Channelers are the most powerful, by far...  If I could have two powers though, Wolfbrother would get stacked on with being Mistborn. 

I still have vivid images of Elyas from EotW.  Everything about the Wolfbrother system was cool.  <3 Hopper.
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JCHancey

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Re: Wheel v. Mist
« Reply #102 on: November 22, 2008, 01:54:24 AM »
yeah if you recall they always tell them to stay in bed for a few days so they can regain the strength. i understand it as it just speeds up the healing process using the bodies strength. it takes it from the channeler and the one being healed.
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Re: Wheel v. Mist
« Reply #103 on: November 22, 2008, 06:09:14 PM »
Jakobus, the person being healed loses strength, the person doing the healing doesn't lose that much because on their side of it, the strength comes from the one power.

The biggest limitation I see of the healing thing is that contact is needed in order to heal, which might be difficult to maintain during a fight.

Unless you had a 'little person' Aes Sedai that holds tight under your robes.  Hmmm.  The possibilities are infinite now!
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Re: Wheel v. Mist
« Reply #104 on: November 25, 2008, 07:15:48 AM »
Would one consider not chooing Channeler cause I want to master an art with my pride (and bottom) intact a valid reason?  :D