Poll

Which would you rather be?

Channeler
41 (48.2%)
Mistborn
25 (29.4%)
Keeper
10 (11.8%)
Wolfbrother
4 (4.7%)
Inquisitor
4 (4.7%)
Gray Man
0 (0%)
Gholam
1 (1.2%)
Fade
0 (0%)

Total Members Voted: 85

Author Topic: Wheel v. Mist  (Read 14464 times)

GreenMonsta

  • Level 22
  • *
  • Posts: 1156
  • Fell Points: 0
    • View Profile
Re: Wheel v. Mist
« Reply #75 on: November 17, 2008, 01:43:39 PM »
Nice, thread mancing is always fun. I do have to state that I never saw this thread before so I'm not against saying that although allomancy is one of the most original magic systems and one of the most fun it wouldn't stand up against channeling. Channeling allows for to much. I would love to see some mistborn even try to attack a channeler.
"No signs of anything that could cause even a slight case of death"

"He's a paraplegic whats he gonna do, bite us?"

JCHancey

  • Level 8
  • *
  • Posts: 257
  • Fell Points: 0
  • Formerly known as Jakobus
    • View Profile
Re: Wheel v. Mist
« Reply #76 on: November 17, 2008, 07:54:06 PM »
Mistborn is the only series i've read that compares to WoT. Other than that... nothing.
RJF: "I spit upon the ground where you no longer ever existed."

GreenMonsta

  • Level 22
  • *
  • Posts: 1156
  • Fell Points: 0
    • View Profile
Re: Wheel v. Mist
« Reply #77 on: November 17, 2008, 09:29:43 PM »
I don't know, when it comes to magic The Will and The Word from Eddings book is pretty powerful. Even Goodkinds Additive and Subtractive is strong if not basic. There just seems to be the most potential with WoT. Although I maintain that Allomancy and Feruchemy is are the most original followed closely by Farlands Runelords.
"No signs of anything that could cause even a slight case of death"

"He's a paraplegic whats he gonna do, bite us?"

Peter Ahlstrom

  • Administrator
  • Level 59
  • *
  • Posts: 4902
  • Fell Points: 2
  • Assistant to Mr. Sanderson
    • View Profile
Re: Wheel v. Mist
« Reply #78 on: November 17, 2008, 10:15:37 PM »
I think the Will and the Word is a pretty boring system. There's not enough to it, and not enough reason why one person would be better at it than anyone else besides "just because" or "prophecy."
All Saiyuki fans should check out Dazzle! Emotionally wrenching action-adventure and quirky humor! (At least read chapter 6 and tell me if you're not hooked.) Volume 10 out now!

GreenMonsta

  • Level 22
  • *
  • Posts: 1156
  • Fell Points: 0
    • View Profile
Re: Wheel v. Mist
« Reply #79 on: November 18, 2008, 12:39:00 AM »
Oh I agree with it being boring and so is Goodkinds additive and subtractive. Both are fairly un-imaginative. I did love the stories though.
"No signs of anything that could cause even a slight case of death"

"He's a paraplegic whats he gonna do, bite us?"

smashingsilver

  • Level 1
  • *
  • Posts: 9
  • Fell Points: 0
    • View Profile
Re: Wheel v. Mist
« Reply #80 on: November 18, 2008, 11:40:47 PM »
I agree that this is a brilliant discussion.  There are so many factors to consider in determining which magic user is more powerful.   However, I think the first thing we need to do is level the playing field.  There were a lot of comments of "if the the Mistborn could sneak up on the channeler," or "is the channeler an Aes Sedai or Ashaman" that make this discussion a bit confusing.  I think you have to say that this is a pre-arranged match, where each side knows the basic abilities of the other and has time to prepare for it.  Otherwise, you could slant events to make either side more likely to win.  Also, you would have to release the rules on Aes Sedai channeling and just focus on the powers that they have.  Since we're assuming that all Mistborn have the same basic abilities and skills, I think we have to assume that the channeler in this battle would have a good grasp of all five powers and knowledge of all the different types of weaves.

Assuming the above conditions, the Mistborn is most likely dead.  They have no protection against Compulsion (as previously indicated), and if the channeler were to use it immediately they could just have the Mistborn slit his own throat.  Atium would not help defend against that as they could not see what weave the channeler would use, just simply that they were going to use a weave.  A duralumin fueled iron-pull would be the only way to get away from it, as I believe a Compulsion weave has to follow a distinct physical path from the channeler to the subject.  That being said, unless the Mistborn were able to move far enough away (out of sight), the channeler could quickly get them again.

Essentially, this battle would end up going two ways - over in seconds with the channeler winning, or a long game of cat-and-mouse where the Mistborn hopes pewter dragging would allow them to tire out the channeler.  In direct face-to-face combat the channeler has too many weapons to attack or counteract anything the Mistborn could do to them.  Emotional allomancy, as previously mentioned, is a risky game of trying to disturb the channeler while hoping you don't get caught up in a bubble of air, a wall of fire, a massive lightning storm (like the one Rahvin uses in Fires of Heaven that "killed" Mat and Aviendha) or those crazy red lines that shoot out of Rand's hands in Crown of Swords and Crossroads of Twilight.

I really like the idea of the grey man Mistborn, although since the grey men aren't really people anymore (just hollow shells with no souls), I don't think that it would be possible since they are devoid of independent thought.  Otherwise you'd see grey men channelers.  Mistborn would be the ultimate darkfriends, however, used to assasinate whomever the Forsaken wished.

This entire topic just makes me more excited for A Memory of Light - Tarmon Gaidon here we come!

GreenMonsta

  • Level 22
  • *
  • Posts: 1156
  • Fell Points: 0
    • View Profile
Re: Wheel v. Mist
« Reply #81 on: November 18, 2008, 11:53:33 PM »
Ah but what about a greyman Inquisitor? Use the hemalugic spikes and you can grant intellicence and independent awareness. You could also grant allomantic powers. Now that would be interesting.
"No signs of anything that could cause even a slight case of death"

"He's a paraplegic whats he gonna do, bite us?"

Rey

  • Level 2
  • **
  • Posts: 12
  • Fell Points: 0
    • View Profile
Re: Wheel v. Mist
« Reply #82 on: November 19, 2008, 06:42:12 AM »
I always feel awkward posting in a topic when there is a few pages already dedicated to it because I know I probably missed something, but here are my two cents...

I really think this is no question, in a straight up fight, channeler > mistborn easily. What good is atium when you cant see the flows being used? Electum wouldn't be much use either, what I am talking about is using air.

As stated in earlier posts, there are certain weaves that require hand movements, correct me if I am wrong but I don't remember anything connecting hand movements and channeling air, so atium would be of no use. I believe that you could effectively "cocoon" a mistborn quickly and completely without them knowing what hit them. It is possible to suffocate using just air and by starting the "cocoon" far enough away from there body and bringing it in, I don't see how they could escape.

By using this "cocoon" method I don't think that electum would be of much use either because it shows direct effects to you, i.e. sword slash, coin being push etc, but how could it show that oxygen was going to be taken from you?

Also when the sun palace was attacked by the rouge Asha man in order to kill rand he threw up the shield that it states nothing short of balefire could penetrate, not even oxygen. Couldn't you instead turn put that around someone else, say a Mistborn, then sit there and watch them suffocate slowly?

Comfortable Madness

  • Level 9
  • *
  • Posts: 339
  • Fell Points: 0
    • View Profile
Re: Wheel v. Mist
« Reply #83 on: November 19, 2008, 02:30:59 PM »

As stated in earlier posts, there are certain weaves that require hand movements, correct me if I am wrong but I don't remember anything connecting hand movements and channeling air, so atium would be of no use. I believe that you could effectively "cocoon" a mistborn quickly and completely without them knowing what hit them. It is possible to suffocate using just air and by starting the "cocoon" far enough away from there body and bringing it in, I don't see how they could escape.


I'm pretty sure hand movements aren't needed at all. They White Tower trains Aes Sedai with hand movements but it is only a training method and not necessary. The Aiel wise ones all channel without hand movements of any kind. If I remember correctly Aviendha even mentions something to Egwene or Elayne the first time she sees them channel.
“I will never serve you, Father of Lies. In a thousand lives, I never have. I know that. I’m sure of it. Come. It is time to die.” Rand al'Thor

"Mourn if you must. But mourn on the march to Tarmon Gai'don." Logain Ablar

melbatoast

  • Level 6
  • *
  • Posts: 152
  • Fell Points: 0
    • View Profile
    • My Shelfari Page
Re: Wheel v. Mist
« Reply #84 on: November 19, 2008, 05:47:36 PM »
The hand movements are only necessary if that is the way you originally learn the weave.
"She is too fond of books, and it has addled her brain." - Louisa May Alcott

maxonennis

  • Level 8
  • *
  • Posts: 273
  • Fell Points: 0
    • View Profile
Re: Wheel v. Mist
« Reply #85 on: November 19, 2008, 08:01:13 PM »
Goodkind and Eddings' magic systems are lacking, IMO, because of the frequent uses of magic with few rules.
"Don't argue with ignorance. And when you argue with me, that's all you get!" Mike

Maxonennis’ soliloquy on Frog relations: “How can I bake the hall in the candle of her brain?”

smashingsilver

  • Level 1
  • *
  • Posts: 9
  • Fell Points: 0
    • View Profile
Re: Wheel v. Mist
« Reply #86 on: November 19, 2008, 09:14:06 PM »
Ah but what about a greyman Inquisitor? Use the hemalugic spikes and you can grant intellicence and independent awareness. You could also grant allomantic powers. Now that would be interesting.

I totally never thought about that.  However, if you returned independent awareness to a grey man, would he still escape notice?  I believe it's his lack of conscious presence that allows him to sneak past people.  I suppose you could argue an exception in this case.

I think we should add the gholam to this list - they live forever, can fit through a mousehole and are immune to the One Power.

AvalonDreamer

  • Level 8
  • *
  • Posts: 276
  • Fell Points: 0
  • Boy Genius - Grown Up... Kinda.
    • View Profile
Re: Wheel v. Mist
« Reply #87 on: November 19, 2008, 09:26:20 PM »
Gholam are near immortal, and crazy fast/strong, but an Allo burning tin and pewter would even the field up pretty fast, toss in a duralumin pewter burn for a final punch or something, and it wouldn't be pleasant to be a gholam in Luthadel. Likewise Vin's flying metal bits of death, making sure a LOT of it was silver, would probably make for an unpleasant day.
My friends held an intervention, to stop my ridiculous plans to take over the world (Jake ended up in the hospital). I convinced them to let me take over other worlds though.

*Evil grin*

RIP: James Oliver Rigney, Jr.

sporkify

  • Level 3
  • ***
  • Posts: 32
  • Fell Points: 0
    • View Profile
Re: Wheel v. Mist
« Reply #88 on: November 20, 2008, 01:32:04 AM »
Gholam are near immortal, and crazy fast/strong, but an Allo burning tin and pewter would even the field up pretty fast, toss in a duralumin pewter burn for a final punch or something, and it wouldn't be pleasant to be a gholam in Luthadel. Likewise Vin's flying metal bits of death, making sure a LOT of it was silver, would probably make for an unpleasant day.
Gholam were created as a specific counter for channelers. 

For circumstances, lets set the scenario something like this: both sides are prepared for the fight, but neither has much equipment.  Mistborn starts with several vials and a coinpouch, Channeler starts well rested.  No angreal of any type, and only a bead or two of atium.  Fight is in a city with lots of metal on buildings.  Fight begins with neither knowing where the other is.

Overall, because of the raw power, I'd go with channelers.  A mistborn could dodge non-targeting attacks, ie things like arrows of fire and lightning, but a holding weave would make them a sitting duck.  (or, probably, a floating duck)  And even while dodging, say, a good stream of balefire, how much time would they have for attacking?  Coins wouldn't do much good-thrown objects aren't helpful unless the channeler is stupid.  (ie Moghedian vs the male a-dam...when spears were launched at Rand by Couladin+crew, he was able to slice through that, and when a rock was thrown at Aginor-teotw-that turned to dust.  And don't forget the super Rand-shield that nearly asphyxiated him.)

The only advantage a mistborn would have is in close quarters combat, as they'd be faster and stronger.  If they even got spotted (which is likely, considering holding said(ar/in)) before closing the distance, the mistborn would be fried yesterday.  (Balefire ftw)
Gorram Frakking Woolhead!

Czanos

  • Level 7
  • ****
  • Posts: 248
  • Fell Points: 0
    • View Profile
Re: Wheel v. Mist
« Reply #89 on: November 20, 2008, 01:39:44 AM »
The problem I see with this issue is the difference in degrees of power. A good majority of the Channeler's we see in the Wheel of Time books are regarded as some of the most powerful Channeler's with years of experience backing them. In Mistborn, on the other hand, almost all of the Allomancer's we see are on the weak end of the scale, and have had Allomantic training for only a few years.

Compulsion, Balefire, Rey's shield, all of those take a significantly large strength in the One Power to use. If the Channeler in this fight is that strong, then it's only fair to have an equally strong Mistborn. Say, someone along the lines of Elend's or The Lord Ruler's Allomantic abilities, perhaps even a full-blown Mistborn savant.

Now that that's out of the way . . . Weaves of Air.

I'm pretty sure trapping a Mistborn in a weave of air would be the stupidest thing one could do. The reason? Weaves of air keep the target pinned with a (nigh) unbreakable force. This would mean any Steelpush or Ironpull performed while trapped within a weave of air would have an (almost) infinite weight backing. Just like a coin hitting into a building can push back with a lot more force, the Mistborn hitting into the weaves of air would gain pseudo super-weight. Building in your way? Steelpush it flat. Pesky Aes Sedai bothering you? Smash her with an iron boulder or two. Annoyed at life in general? Do a massive ironpull on the planet's metallic core, and watch as waves of molten metal cascade down upon your enemies, heralding the end of life as they know it as their planet collapses in upon itself. (Though I'm pretty sure that one would kill you too.)

Of course, that may be a tad dramatic, as it's much more likely the weaves of air would just break, giving the Channeler a nice little migraine as their weaves snap, and sending the Mistborn flying off who knows where. After all, Channeler's can't just go lifting up mountains with air, and a properly positioned Steelpush would do just that.

If that isn't enough for you, there's always the old argument of the proper application of electrum and atium. Burning those two metals, a Mistborn knows everything that could possibly happen around him, and by focusing on the proper electrum shadow they know just how to turn any situation to their utmost advantage. (Or at least how to stay alive.) Lightning going to strike from the sky? Atium-shadows, or if that doesn't work, stay away from the electrum paths that show you getting fried. Weave of compulsion headed your way? Stay away from the electrum shadows which show you stop moving. (Though that could be a weave of air as well.)

Finally, I would not dismiss zinc and brass so easily. It's true most Channeler's are trained to keep their emotions in check, but I'm not so sure that would hold up if a Soothing or Rioting was fueled by duralumin. I see that as having an effect much like giving up Biochromatic Breath to someone. The shock is essentially unavoidable, and all it takes is one moment out of control for the One Power to drag you under.

Now I'm not saying it would be Mistborn > Channeler in any fight, by no means. But I don't think it would be quite as cut-and-dry as most people make it out to be. It's just all about the balance of power between the two groups. If we're going to have high-strength Channeler's going at it, we need to have high-strength Mistborn as well.
I came because I heard stories, tales of a lengendary man.
A man who was known as the Lord of the Mists, a man they named Survivor.
A man called Hope.